Claims on the Internet.

[Matt Stone]

I don't think the issue was charging for testing, charging for belts, etc., but rather the exorbitant fees some organizations and schools charge...

There is a thread in the TKD forum where they were discussing how much they have all paid for their testing to black belt... One guy paid over $450 for his test, and all he got was an embroidered belt, a certificate and a card. Sure, the belt can be pricy, and a certificate can also be valuable, but $450.00???

I don't think so.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I don't think the issue was charging for testing, charging for belts, etc., but rather the exorbitant fees some organizations and schools charge...

Actually, isn't the theme of this thread about people who make claims on the internet?

If someone does not like the fees, trouble, etc in getting rank, then I have no problem with it if they decline. But why are they screaming in the middle of a thread about people who make claims and can not back them up? If they do not want to pay for a rank, fine- then don't take the rank. But if they claim to have recieved a rank- then they have to prove it either by revealing the orginization it is registered with or by having the person who issued the rank back up their claims.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Its not really about if you claimed a certain rank, now prove it. There have been several people who hounded a couple individuals and expected them to "prove themselves." No problem but if one needs to prove themself then both sides should prove themselves. Thats all. Show them "WHO" they are proving themselves to. Fair is fair.

As one of the “hounds” on those threads I can safely say you missed the point.
The point was someone had claimed a certain rank(s), they were questioned about it, and refused to support their claim(s).
Whoever is asking the question is irrelevant. Why should someone asking a simple question have to “prove” themselves…….unless they are making claims as well.


I rarely meet MA people that have a problem with telling you who they trained under and from which organization they earned dan rank in. (Actually only on the internet do I meet such people…..hence the purpose of this thread)
Therefore, when I do meet someone that does have a problem with answering very basic, and quite normal, questions regarding training RED FLAGS start to pop up……and I can’t help but ask “why is it such a problem?”
Actually, I don’t even know what rank most of my friends in the MA are……..they never said and I never asked.
I could tell you whom they train with or have trained with but I never really cared to ask them about rank………and most never asked me.
However, if one of them popped off and said “I got X rank in X art” it’s only common to ask from whom did they study and from what group did they get rank in.
And if one of them claimed a very high rank in a rather obscure art I would either laugh my butt off thinking it a joke or cut off their beer supply figuring they were drunk out of their skull.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!!

Yeah I agree………I think everybody claiming to be a “master” on a website should post their rank……….however, so far not too many on this thread have done so……..and after all isn’t that the topic of this thread “Claims on the Internet”

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Yes "we were" and "will be" equal. Physical abilities have nothing to do with it. We are all "differant" but we are all "one!"

You're right.........Physical abilites have nothing to do with the Martial Arts

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You're right.........Physical abilites have nothing to do with the Martial Arts

My original quote was that we were born equal and will die equal and then sharp phil "interpeted" it as "physical abilities

So this time I'm right

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
As one of the “hounds” on those threads I can safely say you missed the point.
The point was someone had claimed a certain rank(s), they were questioned about it, and refused to support their claim(s).
Whoever is asking the question is irrelevant. Why should someone asking a simple question have to “prove” themselves…….unless they are making claims as well.


I rarely meet MA people that have a problem with telling you who they trained under and from which organization they earned dan rank in. (Actually only on the internet do I meet such people…..hence the purpose of this thread)
Therefore, when I do meet someone that does have a problem with answering very basic, and quite normal, questions regarding training RED FLAGS start to pop up……and I can’t help but ask “why is it such a problem?”
Actually, I don’t even know what rank most of my friends in the MA are……..they never said and I never asked.
I could tell you whom they train with or have trained with but I never really cared to ask them about rank………and most never asked me.
However, if one of them popped off and said “I got X rank in X art” it’s only common to ask from whom did they study and from what group did they get rank in.
And if one of them claimed a very high rank in a rather obscure art I would either laugh my butt off thinking it a joke or cut off their beer supply figuring they were drunk out of their skull.

Bro, first don't think I don't like you or anybody in hear, I've just adopted Yiliquans1's inyaface attitude. I've always been an undergog, it fits me well.

Second, I know first hand of someone on said site that isn't what they claimed, but I don't care. If you floowed the thread you could of figured it out, but i really don't care and the best thing about this thread has been the interesting drama.

Really, I think that if dacflorida is legit and he is arks student "or equal" then no feathers need to be ruffled, but it is fun to watch y'all and if you haven't noticed yet, I do like to instigate.

Robert, I have learned a lot from you! You should get on the mods about the technical forum and contribute!:asian:

 

[SteelShadow]

Just curious You seem to have alot of knowledge on many different types of arts .What rank are you and what orginizations do you belong to?I am genuinly curious..

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by SteelShadow
Just curious You seem to have alot of knowledge on many different types of arts .What rank are you and what orginizations do you belong to?I am genuinly curious..

My rank and school are recognized by the NCMA. The other arts that I represent are all works in progress.

As far as my rank, I was trained at one person and certified by another. Even though I was certified by someone whose teacher was a student with my instructors teacher, many people have said that it was not "same school" like I claimed, but the bottom line was that I knew the material and was certified.

My site does not go into all of my background, just what I'm building upon at the moment but eventually it reflect all of my training off and on dating back to 1973.

http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/home.html
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Martial Artist,

In regards to the Kukkiwon allowing Dan jumping, skipping or whatever....:shrug:

It's done very rarely after I've called, and it's only done for the lower dan levels. And you have to be an exceptional case.

The part of the Kukkiwon website that you posted indicates that the individual needs to pay for the rank skipped in addition to the one sought. It would seem the exceptional cases are those in which the individual has money to line the coffers of the Kukkiwon with. And rarely is a relative term indeed. Is it rare because many legitimate TKD practitioners simply have to much integrity to do so or that they simply lack the funds making it....rare?

And this is the organization that a TKD practitioner needs to belong to so that their Dan is legitimate????? Sounds like 'pay us money and we'll recognize you' to me

How about an organization that recognizes you for free....Now tha would sound more legitimate to me. No politics, no $$$ incentive...just plain ole respect of ability and time commited!

Now theres a novel thought. Seems to me that I've DONE that and have gotten grief over it. Everyone has different sets of values I suppose.

It is true that Koreans have higher standards for black belts

Hey...sounds good...

Hell, these days, one can get a 1st dan certificate from Kukkiwon in two or three years, training two days a week

Doesn't sound very high to me

And you say I need to belong to an organization such as this in my particular disciplines for legitimacy??? :shrug:

I'll stick with the ones that have checked me out thoroughly without $ interest and accepted me amoung their honored ranks.

Don Roley,

Well, if he claims 1st degree, he would still have the instructor who gave it to him to point to. If he can not show any orginizaition who his rank is registered, and he refuses to give contact info for his teacher, then you can be safe in saying that he has no more proof of 1st dan than Ashida Kim does of being a ninja master

I have given contact information to quite a few here. Just not some. Mutual respect goes a long way towards free flow of information...and has.

And if he originally claims to be a XXX- orginization black belt, only to have someone else call the orginization to find out the story is not true, then it is fairly pathetic to see them start to whine that they were not talking about the xxx- orginization and that rank really does not matter since they are such macho studs.

Does that apply to anyone here??? Not that I know of. I've never claimed to be a member of any Okinawan organization that claims to govern a Chinese style And if I knew of any Chinese organizations that were affiliated with that particular discipline I would have sought them out long ago.

As I've said repeatedly, my Pangainoon was an off-shoot of what was originally Uechi. My Dan is just a lowly little school Dan based on what I've been taught since the early 70's from various men WAY above me in ability from around the world. I can't boast of a home organization...cause I don't have one....cause I focused on training rather than organizational membership. My bad, and one thats caused some grief, but so be it.

What good would it do to post my last instructors name? Nobody will have heard of him. He's gone now anyway. However, I have posted the names of all the organizations to which I have chosen to be affiliated with. As I've lived in Europe and the Middle East, most of them are located in those countries. Once again, feel free to contact them as you wish. They've checked me out as completely as one can be checked out and 'recognized me'. If your not satisfied with that....who cares?

[And alot of us have been laughing at you as well. Your E-budo has caught up with you ] You wanna keep the Die hard batteries in the dead horse, feel free. Don't wanna be my buddy I can live with that as well. However, if and when you can concentrate on stuff other than my wall candy...maybe we can contribute to each other. Now wouldn't that be a nice change? :asian:

Seig,

I agree there is good with the bad. And just to be completely open, although my little insignificant school rank puts me amoung them on paper, I freely admit that as an artist I am no where near their caliber. As far as real world experience...that is quite another story.

I know I missed something or someone...my apologies.

:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
And this is the organization that a TKD practitioner needs to belong to so that their Dan is legitimate????? Sounds like 'pay us money and we'll recognize you' to me

How about an organization that recognizes you for free....Now tha would sound more legitimate to me. No politics, no $$$ incentive...just plain ole respect of ability and time commited!

Well, if you do not wish to be a member of an orginization that is your choice. But once you make a claim of being with an orginization it is your responsibility to back up your claims. And the problem with many free orginization you find on th internet is that they have very low standards and basically just serve as a means of promoting the reps of the members. Like if me and my friends got together and formed the "World Orginization of Master Teachers." and then listed it on our web sites. The title sounds fgood to new folks, and with a lot of people we wouldseem to be legitimate. But it is still jsut a few guys with too much time on our hands trying to get respect from others.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
I have given contact information to quite a few here. Just not some. Mutual respect goes a long way towards free flow of information...and has.

Well, this thread is not supposed to be about any one person or their claims, but since you have once again put your foot in a shoe and announced that it fits, let us look at the above statement.

Who have you shared information with? Why is the name of your teacher such a big secret? I would think people would be proud of their teacher, not act like they are ashamed and hide the information.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
As I've said repeatedly, my Pangainoon was an off-shoot of what was originally Uechi.

When did you start saying that? I can not seem to find any reference to you saying so until after RyuShiKan checked with the well known Pangainoon in Okinawa and finding out that you could not be the rank you claimed with them.

So it is kind of like someone talking about their law degree from Havard, and when someone checks with the famous university saying, "Oh I never said I was a member of thatschool. I am talking about Bob Harvad's school of law." And of course, then refuses to give any information about Bob Harvard's school of law.

In a martial arts forum, saing Pangainoon is going to naturally make people assume you are talking about the orginization in Okinawa. If I could find a reference to you saying that your orginization was not the one in Okinawa before RyuShiKan made his call, yo might have a better chance of convincing me. That and the fact that you can not seem to give any information about the Pangainoon you do claim to be a member of. Imagine how that looks to the outsider.

 

[A.R.K.]

But once you make a claim of being with an orginization it is your responsibility to back up your claims.

Again, who does that apply to?

Who have you shared information with?

Quite a few people in the chatroom and PM's/emails. Kaith is one in particular.

When did you start saying that?

Quite some time ago....

1972 - began Uechi-ryu and trained to Green belt. Due to changes in the systems hierarchy in Okinawa different factions spit off. Continued on in Pangai-noon off shoot as well as boxing [Grandfather was Golden gloves].

Posted 2.19.2003 at 7:38 est in the thread Post your Curriculum Vitae

If I could find a reference to you saying that your orginization was not the one in Okinawa before RyuShiKan made his call, yo might have a better chance of convincing me.

Convinced?

Not trying to con anyone here Don. It is merely a school recognized belt on an off-shoot. If that doesn't meet with your standards...then as I've said, disregard it. Doesn't make me some evil martial arts monster.

Peace.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
You are not only a man with an objective opinion but a man with an impressive looking cert., seriously it is beautiful!

Thanks! They were designed by Ed Parker, Jr. and yes they really are something! For a better picture, see here:
http://www.wmarnis.com/fedblackbelts.html

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Arnisador so does not look the way I had pictured him...

Try not to look directly at me--the beauty can be blinding.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
IIf arnisador or any other mod for that matter want to see the proof they can send me a PM

The official position of MartialTalk is: We don't police our members' ranks. Hence, there is certainly no need for this.

If anyone would like to send me something they may do so (arnisador at martialtalk.com), but MartialTalk is officially disinterested in this type of thing.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
You should get on the mods about the technical forum and contribute!

Technical forum?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
Thanks! They were designed by Ed Parker, Jr. and yes they really are something! For a better picture, see here:
http://www.wmarnis.com/fedblackbelts.html

Yes, Ed Jr. is a pretty damn good artist. He has done Hanshi Angels portrait too.:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I am familiar with cases of skipping a rank that I believe to be legitimate involving instructors who ceased being involved with an art publicly, due to politics, but continued to train and teach privately for many years. When they returned to the public scene they were grossly under-ranked for their abilities and time served. It's easy to say "you bowed out, your loss" but in the real world one wants to be welcoming to those who want to rejoin the fold!

However, jumping someone who is active but very skilled seems iffy to me. One could always grant a waiver on the minimum time to the next rank instead.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Roley
In a martial arts forum, saing Pangainoon is going to naturally make people assume you are talking about the orginization in Okinawa.

I didn't think that--I knew how multi-focal Pangainoon's rebirth was as Uechi splintered, plus those earlier on who had tried to 'recreate' the historical Pangainoon.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
Yes, Ed Jr. is a pretty damn good artist. He has done Hanshi Angels portrait too.

He did one of Mr. Hartman, who recently commissioned one of Prof. Remy Presas from him:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7912