" Chinese Wrestling "

[Alan0354]

What's worse is that it isn't something you can dedicate a class or two towards and call it a wrap. You need to spend time both learning it, and defending against it. The technique is THAT devastating to stand up fighting.

Further, the DLT has evolved with grappling and fighting in general, so those sloppy DLTs from the 90s are nothing compared to the crisp combination leg attacks I'm currently seeing in MMA and competitive grappling.

Oh yeh, look at Royce Gracie got destroyed by Matt Huges over 10 years ago. it was pitiful.

In the modern days with videos to study, MA is moving at warp speed. Anyone that doesn't evolve along will be destroyed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I disagree. Go to the people who do DLTs (and sprawls) the best: Wrestlers. If you can stuff a D1 wrestler's DLT, you're in good shape.

I would still want to train against someone who has both good striking and good grappling. If I'm going to improve my kung fu skills then I don't want to spar against someone who only does grappling. I want to spar against someone who does punching and grappling . MMA does both striking and grappling.

 

[Alan0354]

I wish some of you guys could spar with me so I can show you first hand.

Go spar with the MMA people. It's so easy to pick on the old and weak.

If one day you can beat the guy, find one a little better. Find someone at your level of MMA, not someone that only has like 2 or 3 years experience. Find one train as long as you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Go spar with the MMA people. It's so easy to pick on the old and weak.

Really dude? How many times have I've been saying that I spar with an MMA guy at the Gym. That guy is in his mid 20's. What are you even talking about? I said I would like to spar with some of you guys so you can see first hand. I didn't say I wanted to beat you up. How many times have I said in this place I spar to learn.. Geeezz..

by the way if you are going to live by "Talk is cheap" then that's a two way street. Age is no excuse or reason for those who follow that rule. I used to know some old dudes who used to say that same stuff but would never apply it to themselves. Point is. If you aren't willing to follow your own rule then maybe it shouldn't be a rule. Don't ask of others what you yourself aren't willing or able to do.

If one day you can beat the guy, find one a little better. Find someone at your level of MMA, not someone that only has like 2 or 3 years experience.

Again. The guy that I spar with has done competitive MMA fights He trains BJJ, Muay Thai, and TKD. The only reason I do as much ground fighting with him is because I told him I will continue as long as I can so that he can work his techniques. I told him I wanted him to get some use of the training beyond striking because I know he enjoys grappling. He's around 25 years old and has a little more than 10 years of Martial Arts experience. His endurance is better than mine and he's stronger than me. But none of that has anything to do with me wanting you guys to experience the same thing.

The things that I talk about can be shown without knocking heads off, One doesn't not need to strike or be struck to see or identify when they can or can't apply a technique. Anyone who can't tell that should spar more often. If they are too old to start sparring then they should have a little more belief in those who train or share videos of them training. If you still don't want to believe people then that's a totally different issue and probably doesn't have anything to do with Martial Arts.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Go spar with the MMA people. It's so easy to pick on the old and weak.

If one day you can beat the guy, find one a little better. Find someone at your level of MMA, not someone that only has like 2 or 3 years experience. Find one train as long as you.

You say this a lot, to people on here who do fight or have fought, and have told you that. You seem to ignore this for some reason, and keep using it as your ace in the hole, while not doing the same yourself. I don't think you realize how ridiculous the argument comes off when we consider who it's coming from/being said to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You say this a lot, to people on here who do fight or have fought, and have told you that. You seem to ignore this for some reason, and keep using it as your ace in the hole, while not doing the same yourself. I don't think you realize how ridiculous the argument comes off when we consider who it's coming from/being said to.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked that up. Maybe the "the weak" comment coming from a guy who has let the group know on more than one occasion of how strong he is, was a joke as well. If so I would appreciate an indication of that lol. It is what it is I guess.

 

[Alan0354]

You say this a lot, to people on here who do fight or have fought, and have told you that. You seem to ignore this for some reason, and keep using it as your ace in the hole, while not doing the same yourself. I don't think you realize how ridiculous the argument comes off when we consider who it's coming from/being said to.

So you said if I am not good, then I don't qualify to talk even though it is SO OBVIOUS in the last 30 years who is kicking who's butt? One has to be BLIND not to see it.

The problem is people here think in order to criticize, one has to know. I totally disagree. This is not hear say, watch tv, UFC every week showing. Youtube. I am sure as IGNORANT as me, I can see who is kicking who's butt.

This is just a way with shut people up to state the obvious.

I am sure you guys can win the argument here. BUT how about in the Octagon?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So you said if I am not good, then I don't qualify to talk even though it is SO OBVIOUS in the last 30 years who is kicking who's butt? One has to be BLIND not to see it.

I did not say that at all. I made no comments that you are not qualified to talk about anything, and have not stated you are not good. Simply that you have not fit the criteria you are stating others need, despite them fitting that same criteria.

The problem is people here think in order to criticize, one has to know. I totally disagree. This is not hear say, watch tv, UFC every week showing. Youtube. I am sure as IGNORANT as me, I can see who is kicking who's butt.

Again, not what I said. Closer to what you claim.

This is just a way with shut people up to state the obvious.

You are the one who tries to shut others up with this argument. Constantly.

I am sure you guys can win the argument here. BUT how about in the Octagon?

Do you mean as professional fighters, at the top level of UFC? If so, to my knowledge we don't have those here at all, currently. So if that's what's needed to discuss, none of us should be on this forum and we should just close it. Do you mean having people fight cross-discipline or in MMA/cross-discipline style bouts, to test what's stated? If so, plenty of people have done just that, including those you tell to do that.

 

[Alan0354]

Do you mean having people fight cross-discipline or in MMA/cross-discipline style bouts, to test what's stated? If so, plenty of people have done just that, including those you tell to do that.

Yes, what is the result when fighting those that has the same level of training. Meaning fighting MMA trained people of equal experty. Of cause, I don't mean just go into professional fight, they won't let you. Also if one has been in TMA for decades, DO NOT go pick on a MMA that only has 2 or 3 years of training. It has to be of same level.

Speaking of that, how come nobody in TMA manage to fight professionally in the octagon since the first few UFC? Yes, I know, some claimed to be TMA and fought before, BUT they fought like others, NOT their own discipline. Meaning in another words, you can't tell what style when they are in the octagon.

For ignorant people like me, I can only based on who's winning. That's one thing good about fighting, only one can win.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I love San Shou, but the lack of ground fighting kills it for me.

If you are used to watch MMA, you may feel silly to watch boxing game.

I love

- boxing, but the lack of kick.
- kickboxing, but the lack of throw.
- San Shou, but the lack of ground game.
- MMA, but the lack of weapon fight.

IMO, the correct MA training path should be:

boxing -> kickboxing -> San Shou -> MMA -> traditional weapon fight -> modern weapon fight

 

[Hanzou]

If you are used to watch MMA, you may feel silly to watch boxing game.

I love

- boxing, but the lack of kick.
- kickboxing, but the lack of throw.
- San Shou, but the lack of ground game.
- MMA, but the lack of weapon fight.

IMO, the correct MA training path should be:

boxing -> kickboxing -> San Shou -> MMA -> traditional weapon fight -> modern weapon fight

San Shou is considered a form of MMA. However, the lack of ground fighting eliminates an entire part of MMA fighting, and leaves me wanting more.

Boxing and kickboxing aren’t considered MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

San Shou is considered a form of MMA.

I thought Mixed Martial Arts was because you fight against different disciplines. San Shou doesn't fit that.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought Mixed Martial Arts was because you fight against different disciplines. San Shou doesn't fit that.

Originally yes. However nowadays, there’s definitely a MMA style. Sure, some fighters favor some aspects of the style more than others, but in general, fighters in UFC, One, Bellator, etc. are all using the same general style. If UFC banned ground fighting, it’d look like San Shou as well.

 

[Alan0354]

I thought MMA is just adapting anything that is proven useful. Like they use boxing hands a lot, TKD kicks, Muy Thai(which similar to boxing hands and some TKD kicks) elbows and knees. Then BJJ and wrestling ground game. They even use the Wing Chung front step kicks to the knee.

To me MMA is literally Mixed Marshall Arts in the true sense. That it pick all the moves that proofed effective from different styles and mix in.

In fact, I notice the MMA stance is half way between boxing narrow stance and the deep stance. Feet are a little over 2ft apart. Close enough to dance like boxing, but far enough so it can take a much wider step to cover more distance. It has the speed of boxing dancing, but can step bigger steps to move faster.

MMA constantly changing and improving. I can watch an UFC fight and kind of know what year it's recorded. It's constantly improving because they do NOT have all the tradition, believes and pride to get in the way. If one day, one particular style go into the octagon and whoop a few butts, you bet MMA will style will change without resistance that you see in other styles. their goal is to be the best.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I thought Mixed Martial Arts was because you fight against different disciplines. San Shou doesn't fit that.

San Shou the modern combat sport is a mix of lots of styles. There are a huge number of styles represented, going back hundreds of years, and multiple countries.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

San Shou the modern combat sport is a mix of lots of styles. There are a huge number of styles represented, going back hundreds of years, and multiple countries.

I don't like the San Shou 3 seconds clinching time limitation. If you can't take your opponent down within 3 seconds, the referee will separate both fighters. This is why the ACSCA comes up the combat SC rule which is the same as the San Shou rule but without that 3 seconds limitation.

 

[Hanzou]

Because a wider stance will made the double leg significantly more difficult to pull off. You can only retreat as far as your rear leg. If your rear leg is still in danger when you step back with your lead leg then your feet are too close together and you are at risk of being the victim of a double take down. This is why I teach students not to put more than one leg in danger and to use a longer stance. If the stance is low. Stance height will also affect the placement of the feet. The taller you stand the closer your feet will be. The lower your stance the further apart they will be. The only exception to this are the low stances that we see BJJ and Judo practitioners in non striking competition. For example like this. The only issue with this is that you wouldn't stand like this in front of someone who has good kicks and punches.
View attachment 29077

This guy talks about the same thing I've been talking about for years, which is to take that mid level stance and go between mid level and low level as needed.

Well that's the thing, you wouldn't go for a DLT if someone has a wide stance like that. That wide stance opens you up for leg attacks outside of DLTs. In fact the page where you got one of those images from discusses takedowns that you can use against such stances.

I wish some of you guys could spar with me so I can show you first hand.

No, I get what you're saying, but utilizing a wide, deep stance for an extended period of time to avoid a DLT is an inefficient way to prevent takedowns. Doing that sets you up for vulnerabilities elsewhere, and when you exit that stance to deal with those other weaknesses, the DLT chance opens up again. The sprawl is an infinitely better counter, because your opponent has committed to the takedown and is wide open to a variety of attacks.

BTW, I do agree w/you that (reputable) MMA would be a good place to learn striking combinations into grappling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Doing that sets you up for vulnerabilities elsewhere, and when you exit that stance to deal with those other weaknesses,

Those risks and vulnerabilities are manageable. Me being on the ground is a much bigger vulnerability.

 

[Hanzou]

Those risks and vulnerabilities are manageable. Me being on the ground is a much bigger vulnerability.

Manageable in what way? Getting hit with a single leg while in a wide stance is just as bad as getting hit with a double leg in a narrow stance. Maybe even worse because the single leg can set up leg locks.

Also you won’t be all that vulnerable on the ground if you learned the guard.

 

[Jimmythebull]

I don't like the San Shou 3 seconds clinching time limitation. If you can't take your opponent down within 3 seconds, the referee will separate both fighters. This is why the ACSCA comes up the combat SC rule which is the same as the San Shou rule but without that 3 seconds limitation.

why do you think this type of wrestling is not so wide spread in the west?, at least not so in Europe? I see other chinese styles like Wing Tsun or Choy Lay Fut but not this type of wrestling