" Chinese Wrestling "

[Steve]

Sprawling has been around for hundreds of millions of years.

Animals that grapple sprawl naturally. Whoever saw a tiger take another tigers legs out? Nope they meet head to head, whatever level.

That's a key element of tiger Kung fu. Enemy goes low, you lower, with claws out.

I don’t think you are talking about the same thing. Can you show me what you mean by tigers sprawling?

 

[Alan0354]

Alan, of course you speak Chinese ...and also very good English, but not as your native tongue, so allow me to offer a couple of corrections. First, as you see in the previous sentence, the expression is "of course", not "of cause". The second correction is more relevant. The term you want to use is "sprawl" not "spraw".

The sprawl was not "discovered" in 2000. It has been around forever, probably for thousands of years. I started wrestling as a kid way back in the mid 1960s and it was the most fundamental shoot defense back then ...and one thing my old, arthritic body can still do today. But good shooters can often set a guy up and beat the sprawl. That's another thing that's been true forever!

That's the most effective way, why nobody talk about it here? All the fancy foot work and all that. Nothing effective like Spraw. Not fancy enough? Too ugly?

 

[Alan0354]

Let's compare shooting (single leg, or double legs) and face to face throw (foot sweep, front cut, inner hook, outer hook, leg spring, ...).

When you shoot,

- Your opponent has 2 free arms.
- Your head is fully exposed for punching.

When you use face to face throw,

- You use your arms to deal with your opponent's arms (your opponent doesn't have free arms). You then use one of your leg to deal with one of your opponent's legs.
- Your head is not exposed for punching.

In the following "inner hook" example, you use

- left hand to control your opponent's right arm.
- right hand to push on his neck (this will block his left arm attack).
- right leg to hook your opponent's left leg.

When you apply this throw, you will have less chance to be punched on your head than when you shoot.

How come all the TMA got killed pretty much by shoot in UFC back in the days? I doubt they can defend that today. Maybe on paper or demonstration like in the video.

The problem is you cannot generate force when you are being pushed backwards. They literally take a hit from you and you're dead next. This is NOT touch sparring!!!

You have to get into the octagon to proof that!!!

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don’t think you are talking about the same thing. Can you show me what you mean by tigers sprawling?

Tigers are masters at hitting the mat fast. You can find all sorts of level changing in tiger combat.

In single leg defense as an example, you drop and sprawl, you're doing what a tiger does, dropping your weight and using your hind legs to brace yourself using your hands as guard, with grips.

Looking for a good pic of actual tigers doing this, but they do. Being spammed with Detroit Tigers "clinch" news. Internet.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Tigers even do north South sometimes.

 

[Alan0354]

Tigers even do north South sometimes.

View attachment 29067

Sometimes, human like to do N S too!!! 😂

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sort of getting there...google spam. lots of high school wrestling teams named the Tigers, obviously. Some even use mascots with these poses.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You learn those before? I did. It's easy to resist that kind of throw.

Yes. If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off. Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it. It's like everything else.

 

[Alan0354]

Yes. If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off. Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it. It's like everything else.

Well, I am still waiting for your video with the MMA guy. Show us how you do it. It should be easy.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Yes. If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off. Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it. It's like everything else.

Yes. Power, speed, and technique will not be effective if the timing is not there. And it's one of the more difficult skills to cultivate. Power, speed and technique can be practiced solo. Timing is harder to get down as you have to integrate yourself into an opponent's movement and even intention. Experience and a clear mind are needed to really develop good timing. I've found that timing is the first thing to go when you have a long layoff from sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've found that timing is the first thing to go when you have a long layoff from sparring.

That was my biggest whine when I got back into sparring. Everything going was off big time. It was really depressing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well, I am still waiting for your video with the MMA guy. Show us how you do it. It should be easy.

Concept is easy. Answer is easy. Getting the required led strength and endurance is not easy. It's one of my hardest workouts. Nothing easy about that but I'll be stronger because of it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's easy to resist that kind of throw.

This is why one has to learn throw (and joint lock) in pairs - 2 throws (or 2 locks) in opposite directions.

 

[Alan0354]

Concept is easy. Answer is easy. Getting the required led strength and endurance is not easy. It's one of my hardest workouts. Nothing easy about that but I'll be stronger because of it.

Yes, talk is easy, so far, nobody did it that well. So there comes time to say it doesn't work. There are ways that works, so it's better forget the theoretical way, and go for the practical way.

 

[Alan0354]

This is why one has to learn throw (and joint lock) in pairs - 2 throws (or 2 locks) in opposite directions.

Of cause, that's so basic, you do NOT do it alone!!! Been there, done that.

Simple shoot is so much more effective, no talk is necessary, just have the opponent on his back and ground and pound. Forget the talk.

BTW, NOBODY got knock out from shooting that I have seen all these years in UFC, nobody I know of that managed to land anything meaningful when they are being shot. That include the days where there was no rule against hitting on the neck and back of the head in the Octagon in the early days.

Maybe you can get into the octagon to be the first one to KO someone when they shoot. Just tell them you are CMA, they will shoot you.

 

[Alan0354]

To me, it's very simple. All the timing and technique, The ONLY one limiting factor is SPEED and REACTION TIME. There is a limit on how fast a human can react to a signal, some people are faster, but still there is an UPPER LIMIT. Beyond that, it is just NOT POSSIBLE to improve.

So if the opponent attack you at speed you cannot react on time, no matter how hard you practice, you are NOT going to get the timing. So it's just better to find other ways than just blaming on timing.

Shooting is simple, one step move, it's fast. Those Judo or whatever you call throws are multi-steps. You first pull the person in, then you turn your own body, and then pull the person over your own hip or leg to throw him down. THIS IS SLOW. There is time to react and it's easy to resist. SHOOT is so fast, your head quickly bury into the person's lap to make it hard to hit the head and neck. The back can take a lot of abuse. You only have a split second to make one hit before you are flat on your back already!!!

All these years, I saw ONE person did a Judo throw in the Octagon, he was an expert in Judo. I've seen so many shoots. There is good reason people doing that. Base on history, shoot is the most effective take down technique. It's just NOT PRETTY.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Yes. If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off. Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it. It's like everything else.

In Judo this is important. Unbalancing & setting up the throw

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW, NOBODY got knock out from shooting that I have seen all these years in UFC, nobody I know of that managed to land anything meaningful when they are being shot.

It has happened, more than once. It’s just difficult to properly time a knockout shot on someone who is doing a proper shot. So most fighters do the smart thing and defend the shot first.

Some of the KO’s in this video occurred as the fighter was starting in for a shot. (For example at 1:02 and at 4:30.)

All these years, I saw ONE person did a Judo throw in the Octagon, he was an expert in Judo.

There have been a lot of people who have successfully executed Judo throws in high level MMA.

I've seen so many shoots. There is good reason people doing that. Base on history, shoot is the most effective take down technique.

You are correct that shooting for double and single leg takedowns is higher percentage in MMA than big “Judo style” throws. I suspect we’d see a higher percentage of the Judo style throws if fighters wore clothing on their upper body which could be grabbed. Having a jacket to hold on to makes those throws easier to execute. Either way, there is a time and a place for both kinds of technique. I actually have a higher success rate with Judo takedowns than shots when I do MMA sparring, but that’s because I’m old and don’t have the explosive speed that you want for a good shot. It’s easier for me to get a clinch and work from there. If I was a young competitive athlete, I’d probably do a lot more shots.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll take a good throw over shooting any day. For example shooting in on someone is probably not a good option for you, but a trip or a throw is still very much a viable technique for you.

On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.

 

[Hanzou]

Tigers are masters at hitting the mat fast. You can find all sorts of level changing in tiger combat.

In single leg defense as an example, you drop and sprawl, you're doing what a tiger does, dropping your weight and using your hind legs to brace yourself using your hands as guard, with grips.

Looking for a good pic of actual tigers doing this, but they do. Being spammed with Detroit Tigers "clinch" news. Internet.

View attachment 29066

I believe the issue is that while animals were sprawling when "grappling" with each other, many martial arts didn't teach their students how to do it. This is why if you view the Gracie in action tapes, or even the first UFC, you see people getting taken down rather easily by the Gracie's sloppy DLTs over and over again.

As for Shiao Jiao (sp?) I would love to see more of it in a cross-grappling environment versus (western) Wrestling, Judo or BJJ. Unfortunately, I only tend to see it in a vacuum, which is rather odd in the current martial environment.