Chin na training

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm currently only doing the conditioning and strength exercises but haven't done any of the techniques yet. My grip was never as strong as it needs to be in order to pull a lot of the techniques off. I think once I get to an acceptable level, then I'll start working on the techniques while improving my strength. I'm currently using a 10lb slam ball to strengthen my grip and hopefully I can move to a 15lb slam ball before the end of the year. Recently I picked up the 10lb ball and thought it was the 8lb ball. I'm getting stronger but I'm not sure if I'm ready for a 5lb jumb in weight. 15lbs may be a bit too heavy and then there's the question of what should the stopping point be.

I'll probably try some techniques on the muay thai guy that comes in to work on the speed bag. I won't know how much stronger my grip truly is until I give it a try during sparring.

It actually doesn’t require much strength at all. Angles, that’s all. Dr Yang says it over and over again, no force, just angle. When I successfully sink these level 1 locks it feels effortless.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I probably mentioned this before but Dr. Yang sort of got me started on kung fu (indirectly) along with some other key people. So I had watched and read a lot of his Chin na stuff before I stepped inside a kwoon.

When I learned Chin na for real, it was very effective stuff, and applicable in practically every grappling environment. Joint locks in wrestling, judo, BJJ, etc are all essentially Qin na with safety built in. The kimura is a great example of chin na, if you have to convince the non CMA crowd.

So I guess Chin na is my specialty, if I have one. Why? Because I don't like to hit people, I prefer control.

It's such a broad topic, well beyond grabbing wrists. And from a purely CMA point of view, there is also a lot of overlap with tui na massage, bone injury treatments, dim mak.

I find I use dit da jow mostly on my elbows nowadays for this reason. Qin na is hard on them whether you are giving or receiving.

I feel pretty lucky to get trained by Dr Yang at his house. He is actually quite a lot of fun, he has a great sense of humor when he is dragging me around. He makes great tea too!

 

[JowGaWolf]

It actually doesn’t require much strength at all. Angles, that’s all. Dr Yang says it over and over again, no force, just angle. When I successfully sink these level 1 locks it feels effortless.

There's always strength involve. The traditional Chin Na exercises are a prime example of that. I'm willing to bet that those comments that he makes are more because people tend to brute force things and he has probably taught a lot of people who tend to do that.

I'm an anti-brute force person. If I have to brute force something then I'm doing it wrong. If I brute force things then I run into the risk of having that force turn against me. I'm also at an age where my brute force doesn't last as long as someone who is much younger and in shape.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm an anti-brute force person. If I have to brute force something then I'm doing it wrong. If I brute force things then I run into the risk of having that force turn against me.

There is nothing wrong to use brute force as long as you just use it to set up.

The initial force is always brute force. You want your opponent to resist so you can borrow his force. The 2nd force then can be an effortless force.

If your opponent uses your brute force to against you (such as yield into your brute force), you can still borrow his yielding force to against him. Since you use your brute force to set up, you are thinking 1 step ahead.

Example to use shoulder lock (brute force) to set up elbow lock.



Use elbow lock (brute force) to set up shoulder lock.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I feel pretty lucky to get trained by Dr Yang at his house. He is actually quite a lot of fun, he has a great sense of humor when he is dragging me around. He makes great tea too!

This was my first kung fu DVD, and funny enough I eventually learned this from a Shaolin master, who I had a conversation with just today.

If you know what comes before or after this, you know what I mean.

The Xin Yi Ba thread reminded me of this one. The stone floor of the Thousand Buddha Hall.

 

[Teapot]

I think the word “strength” is often looked down upon and taboo because people associate it with “brute” – like a savage beast using his enormous strength in a dumb, inefficient manner.

But strength and efficiency don’t have to be a dichotomy.

I agree that angles play a massive role regarding Qinna, but just because you don’t need to use a lot of strength doesn’t mean that adding strength won’t help.

Picking up a boulder with my hands might be seen as dumb strength. If I put a lever under it, I suddenly don’t need a lot of strength to lift it. But if I add a lot of strength in combination with that lever, the boulder is even more easily moved.

The lever is just a force multiplier. But in order to create that lever, I have to stop picking the boulder with my own bare hands. So we may be taught to "not use strength" because I am trying to develop something that doesn't rely on a lot of strength. Once that part is well developed, I can then add strength on top of that.

Once the subtle side is well-developed, adding speed and strength on top of that only helps.

There are Qinna methods that can be done with Fa Jin – done with a crisp power, like a jolt. Basically, if the slow/soft approach already hurts a lot in a laboratory setting, the fast and powerful approach will hurt a heck of a lot more.

Regarding Dr. Yang, he wrote in his White Crane book: “60 to 70% of the techniques which I have documented in my Qin Na books originated with Master Cheng.”

It seems that the majority of his Qinna methods came from his White Crane teacher.

Since Dr. Yang was born and raised in Taiwan, that’s an excellent place to learn White Crane because it’s so close to Fujian province which is where White Crane came from.

I personally think that White Crane is what Dr. Yang is best at. I think it was his first martial art and he spent like 13 years learning it which is far longer than any other martial art he learned.

However, to my surprise, he also wrote in his White Crane book: "I spent thirteen years learning White Crane from Master Cheng, Gin-Gsao, and did not even complete half of his training."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

View attachment 30351

When he stands in a golden rooster stance with his "knee touches his chest", I believe he developed that through his long fist training and not from his white crane training.

This kind of flexibility training does not exist in many MA systems. This just remind me that there are many long fist training are not done in other styles (such as to touch your left hand on your right foot when you kick your right foot).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There's always strength involve. The traditional Chin Na exercises are a prime example of that. I'm willing to bet that those comments that he makes are more because people tend to brute force things and he has probably taught a lot of people who tend to do that.

I'm an anti-brute force person. If I have to brute force something then I'm doing it wrong. If I brute force things then I run into the risk of having that force turn against me. I'm also at an age where my brute force doesn't last as long as someone who is much younger and in shape.

I humbly disagree.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think the word “strength” is often looked down upon and taboo because people associate it with “brute” – like a savage beast using his enormous strength in a dumb, inefficient manner.

But strength and efficiency don’t have to be a dichotomy.

I agree that angles play a massive role regarding Qinna, but just because you don’t need to use a lot of strength doesn’t mean that adding strength won’t help.

Picking up a boulder with my hands might be seen as dumb strength. If I put a lever under it, I suddenly don’t need a lot of strength to lift it. But if I add a lot of strength in combination with that lever, the boulder is even more easily moved.

The lever is just a force multiplier. But in order to create that lever, I have to stop picking the boulder with my own bare hands. So we may be taught to "not use strength" because I am trying to develop something that doesn't rely on a lot of strength. Once that part is well developed, I can then add strength on top of that.

Once the subtle side is well-developed, adding speed and strength on top of that only helps.

There are Qinna methods that can be done with Fa Jin – done with a crisp power, like a jolt. Basically, if the slow/soft approach already hurts a lot in a laboratory setting, the fast and powerful approach will hurt a heck of a lot more.

Regarding Dr. Yang, he wrote in his White Crane book: “60 to 70% of the techniques which I have documented in my Qin Na books originated with Master Cheng.”

It seems that the majority of his Qinna methods came from his White Crane teacher.

Since Dr. Yang was born and raised in Taiwan, that’s an excellent place to learn White Crane because it’s so close to Fujian province which is where White Crane came from.

I personally think that White Crane is what Dr. Yang is best at. I think it was his first martial art and he spent like 13 years learning it which is far longer than any other martial art he learned.

However, to my surprise, he also wrote in his White Crane book: "I spent thirteen years learning White Crane from Master Cheng, Gin-Gsao, and did not even complete half of his training."

Many of the techniques Dr. Yang is teaching have white crane in the name.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There's always strength involve. The traditional Chin Na exercises are a prime example of that. I'm willing to bet that those comments that he makes are more because people tend to brute force things and he has probably taught a lot of people who tend to do that.

I'm an anti-brute force person. If I have to brute force something then I'm doing it wrong. If I brute force things then I run into the risk of having that force turn against me. I'm also at an age where my brute force doesn't last as long as someone who is much younger and in shape.

It’s much more effective when I use the least force necessary for the motion. I find that I may get a second chance at the lock if I stay responsive.

 

[Oily Dragon]

When he stands in a golden rooster stance with his "knee touches his chest", I believe he developed that through his long fist training and not from his white crane training.

This kind of flexibility training does not exist in many MA systems. This just remind me that there are many long fist training are not done in other styles (such as to touch your left hand on your right foot when you kick your right foot).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I humbly disagree.

Dr Yang is 77 and much smaller than me, I could easily out muscle him, but that’s irrelevant to what I’m trying to learn.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

View attachment 30352

I have that book.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It’s much more effective when I use the least force necessary for the motion. I find that I may get a second chance at the lock if I stay responsive.

I'm willing to bet that it's more effective when you use the correct amount of force applied correctly vs the least amount of force.

It probably seems light the least amount of force because you aren't trying to brute force a technique. It's the same way punches work. A relaxed punch only seems like the least amount of force is being used in reality more force is delivered with a relaxed punch than a brute force one. You aren't trying to punch with the least amount of force unless you are light sparring.

Chin na is the same way. You aren't trying to use the least amount of force unless you are sparring and learning because the correct amount of force that you would use in full contact would destroy the joints.

If I'm in a fight I don't want to ride with the brakes on by trying to use the least. In training yes. In a fight no.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm willing to bet that it's more effective when you use the correct amount of force applied correctly vs the least amount of force.

It probably seems light the least amount of force because you aren't trying to brute force a technique. It's the same way punches work. A relaxed punch only seems like the least amount of force is being used in reality more force is delivered with a relaxed punch than a brute force one. You aren't trying to punch with the least amount of force unless you are light sparring.

Chin na is the same way. You aren't trying to use the least amount of force unless you are sparring and learning because the correct amount of force that you would use in full contact would destroy the joints.

If I'm in a fight I don't want to ride with the brakes on by trying to use the least. In training yes. In a fight no.

Force while locked, or force applying the lock, they are not the same.

My Yang Taijiquan Shifu was the best I had ever seen or experienced with Qinna, I am very far from his level. I can always tell when someone is about to go for Qinna, sometimes I can counter, sometimes I cannot. Dr Yang, I could tell, but there was no way I was going to counter (he dropped me to my knees once in a push hands class by using qinna)

However I could never tell with my Yang Shifu, all of a sudden you are locked, and not getting out of it. And he was not using as force as Dr Yang. I asked him how he did that, his answer "You lock yourself". Basically he is just waiting for you to be at the correct angle and then applying only the force necessary to apply his Qinna

 

[Holmejr]

The thing here is that it’s about angles, not grip strength or application of force.

Agree to a point. Yes, it’s about all those things, but people that are determined to hurt you, let’s say with a knife, typically don’t submit quietly. No application of force is a beautiful concept though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"You lock yourself".

- You lock yourself.
- You throw yourself.

This principle doesn't exist in the striking art. There is no such thing as you punch yourself. So the term brute force may mean differently between the striking art and the grappling art.

In grappling art, you have to give (brute art) before you can take (effortless force). The give is the set up. The take is the goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm willing to bet that it's more effective when you use the correct amount of force applied correctly vs the least amount of force.

In the following clip, the pull is the brute force. the push is the effortless force.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Agree to a point. Yes, it’s about all those things, but people that are determined to hurt you, let’s say with a knife, typically don’t submit quietly. No application of force is a beautiful concept though.
[/QUOTE. (Sigh) Ok, so my post was asking people who had extensive TRAINING in Chin Na to share their experiences TRAINING.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Agree to a point. Yes, it’s about all those things, but people that are determined to hurt you, let’s say with a knife, typically don’t submit quietly. No application of force is a beautiful concept though.

Concept is what’s missing in this post.