Can you learn from video?

[Dylan9d]

I believe I've already pointed out to you where you, in the opening post, make the suggestion. To be fair, you suggest many things there, including video as supplemental instruction. But also to be fair, you suggest video as the source, and you suggest video as a way to get going before finding an instructor.

Be honest.

My post, number 93 in this thread is where I pointed out your relevant comments. I suggest you review that one.

Sorry Flying Crane but I think that You need to read the opening post again

 

[Juany118]

Hmmm ... I've straight armbarred a ****load of guys without "rotating" the arm. You need to control the wrist, usually via the thumb, so they cannot spin out, and there are different philosophies about the final position of the wrist, but I've never had major problems just isolating the end of the lever (wrist), pinning it to my chest and extending the arm using my posterior chain. I've yet to meet someone who could come close to resisting this using arm strength once you control both ends of the lever. His bicep vs your posterior chain. No contest.

Armbars do have a fair number of details and a few differences of opinion about how to apply them, like most things.

Rotation can be useful in setting up the armlock, per Rhonda Rousey, but I've never been taught this rotation thing. I've been taught armbars by three of the Machado brothers, John Will, Richard Norton, Anthony Perosh and Gui Mendes.

Perhaps you are talking about a cutting armbar? For those I would agree the position of the elbow per rotation is very important.

It would be difficult to learn either of these via video alone. But once you understand the basic technical idea and principles behind it, I think the tweaks can be communicated on video and fine tuned by feel without difficulty.

Sorry I was referring to an armbar takedown from a standing position, not an armbar in terms of getting a submission or on the ground etc. If that helps to clarify things. Now some as I understand it may refer to this more as an "armlock" vs "armbar". I was always taught to call it an armbar. /shrug.

This is not a bad video, but not great either. I would place it in the "meh" category...

If they are strong/drunk/high enough it is possible for them to muscle out of such if you are just dropping your body weight down. However, if you start more with your wrist in the area of the tricep as the video says, rolling or driving your arm into/across, rotating his arm under yours as you drop, it messes with his shoulder in multiple directions. As my Guro says "the human brain likes linerar and hates circles" and adding this dynamic makes it much easier to take down.

The problem is, without an instructor, and a willing partner, it is dang hard to learn. First you have to look really close in the video though to see how the white t-shirt guy's arm is rotating at the shoulder to start with. Second, being sure that is happening in training can be difficult, because obviously you don't want to go so hard as to cause injury. Also this video in particular is speaking purely from a LEO/security perspective starting with the escort position and isn't showing how to properly transition during an on going "striking" fight.

In comparison we have this video

which is relying almost entirely on your body weight. It is an easy to learn technique but more than once, in reality, I have seen this fail due to size difference/intoxication.

Now do grappling specific arts have different techniques? Yes, I was thinking through my Kali lens as it applies to street encounters however and this is where I see an issue.

If you want to learn a particular art I wouldn't suggest any "free" videos on YouTube. There are some that I think are good for the following purpose I think they can be good. Once you have a solid base videos can help show you what does and what doesn't work outside the school and on the street, as an example. What I have a problem with videos, especially the "free ones" you find is the following.

1. There is really no vetting beyond "likes" and that to me is unreliable.
2. The ones from quality instructors are usually purposefully limited as they are really there as advertisement not bonafide instruction.
3. The most important one. On our best day, as humans, we can often find it difficult acknowledging mistakes when we are in a position to clearly see and thus critique our own actions. Now magnify that dynamic due to the fact that we can not see ourselves in the third person. Magnify it further because we may be trying to assimilate something that really requires a partner who is not there. Magnify it still further because, as a student, we don't even really know what to look for in terms of errors.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry Flying Crane but I think that You need to read the opening post again

I have. I stand by my assessment.

 

[Vajramusti]

The original proposition was imprecise and spurious. It allowed for some "learning".

 

[anerlich]

Sorry I was referring to an armbar takedown from a standing position, not an armbar in terms of getting a submission or on the ground etc. If that helps to clarify things. Now some as I understand it may refer to this more as an "armlock" vs "armbar". I was always taught to call it an armbar. /shrug.

From a Jiu Jitsu perspective, I would call that a variation of the cutting armbar. The same elbow lock can be applied from a variety of positions.

I agree there are some subtleties that are not easily seen on video. Also, even if demonstrated and well described by a teacher, I would venture it takes most students considerably longer to learn to apply than many other techniques, as the vagaries of the elbow position are subtle and the only decent feedback in some positions is whether the guy taps to it or not. In the example given, the guy goes down if you do it properly, but if you do it from the guard or from knee on stomach, etc. The guy hardly moves at all. If you apply it right, you can break his arm but if you don't, nothing happens. Only he can really tell you if you've got it right or not - unless you hear the snap. After enough practice you learn to feel the right positions and how to adjust if it doesn't seem to be happening.

Now do grappling specific arts have different techniques? Yes, I was thinking through my Kali lens as it applies to street encounters however and this is where I see an issue.

Only up to a point, There are only so many ways conceptually to attack each specific joint. That may lead to a multiplicity of different body positions to apply the leverage for attack, but essentially the underlying concept is the same. There are many ways to apply a straight armbar on the ground, most of which are back to front upside down or inside out versions of each other, but the underlying principle is controlling the hand and shoulder and applying hyperextending force to the back of the elbow.

Jiu Jitsu, like other arts, is evolving and open ended, which means that if you saw a new way to apply a lock that fitted in with the rest of your game you'd just absorb it.

 

[Juany118]

From a Jiu Jitsu perspective, I would call that a variation of the cutting armbar. The same elbow lock can be applied from a variety of positions.

I agree there are some subtleties that are not easily seen on video. Also, even if demonstrated and well described by a teacher, I would venture it takes most students considerably longer to learn to apply than many other techniques, as the vagaries of the elbow position are subtle and the only decent feedback in some positions is whether the guy taps to it or not. In the example given, the guy goes down if you do it properly, but if you do it from the guard or from knee on stomach, etc. The guy hardly moves at all. If you apply it right, you can break his arm but if you don't, nothing happens. Only he can really tell you if you've got it right or not - unless you hear the snap. After enough practice you learn to feel the right positions and how to adjust if it doesn't seem to be happening..

So really I think we are on the same page TBH, in terms of a pure video perspective. I just did not wish to make assumptions regarding grappling arts. I did study Aikido many moons ago but my most recent experience, and passion revolve around Lacoste/Inosanto Kali and Wing Chin (what I currently study now). While Kali does have grappling I know it is limited as compared to other arts.

 

[KPM]

I have. I stand by my assessment.

And I stand by my assessment that you are a bit, shall we say, "logic challenged."

 

[KPM]

I believe I've already pointed out to you where you, in the opening post, make the suggestion. To be fair, you suggest many things there, including video as supplemental instruction. But also to be fair, you suggest video as the source, and you suggest video as a way to get going before finding an instructor.

Be honest.

My post, number 93 in this thread is where I pointed out your relevant comments. I suggest you review that one.

And I will state again, as you have so kindly pointed out.....I never suggested video as the SOLE way of learning. Please check your logic module. I think it is malfunctioning.

 

[Hyoho]

Do we really need to take this thread any further? The OP actually makes what he considers to be his own instructional videos. Didn't anyone notice that before they responded. It's just an inadvertent commercial to say YouTubes are OK.

 

[KPM]

Do we really need to take this thread any further? The OP actually makes what he considers to be his own instructional videos. Didn't anyone notice that before they responded. It's just an inadvertent commercial to say YouTubes are OK.

What you are talking about? I have put up a few youtube videos for friends and students. Most of them were in response to discussions on this forum or the FB Wing Chun forum where I was trying to show on video what I was talking about in writing to try and make my explanation a bit clearer. If more people had the balls to do that, then many discussions would be much more fruitful. Instead, guys like you try to denigrate people that put up video and end up discouraging people from doing it. NONE of the videos I have put up were meant at any kind of "on-line" teaching program or intended to be the SOLE source of anyone's instruction.

You ask "do we need to take this thread any further" and then take a swipe at me again. Why can't you and the crane simply let it go?

Let me state one more time and then let's drop it..........I never proposed in my OP that video be the ONLY source of someone's instruction. If you think so, then you are reading something into it that isn't there. I have repeated and reinforced multiple times on this thread now that I do not believe that someone can learn effectively ONLY from video. For someone to continue to try and say that I said the opposite, is just plain stupid, because I am here, and I should know what my intent was and what I believe!

 

[Flying Crane]

And I will state again, as you have so kindly pointed out.....I never suggested video as the SOLE way of learning. Please check your logic module. I think it is malfunctioning.

You did, and I pointed it out to you.

Hey, you tell yourself whatever lie makes you comfortable.

But if you are taking that part back, well ok then

 

[Flying Crane]

An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should be able to benefit.

There is this bit, in case you have forgotten. And as I have already pointed out to you...

 

[Tez3]

If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in. But you have to have a partner. Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo! So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time. And have fun! That's the important part![/QUOTE

Whether you mean to or not this more than implies you can learn just with the video. the only mention of an instructor is the bit about looking to see if you like the style before travelling a long way but it does go on to say you and a friend can learn from the video, you even recommend working through it slowly so yes I'm afraid you have said you can learn as a beginner. Granted, you may not have meant it but that's what this says

 

[Hyoho]

What you are talking about? I have put up a few youtube videos for friends and students. Most of them were in response to discussions on this forum or the FB Wing Chun forum where I was trying to show on video what I was talking about in writing to try and make my explanation a bit clearer. If more people had the balls to do that, then many discussions would be much more fruitful. Instead, guys like you try to denigrate people that put up video and end up discouraging people from doing it. NONE of the videos I have put up were meant at any kind of "on-line" teaching program or intended to be the SOLE source of anyone's instruction.

You ask "do we need to take this thread any further" and then take a swipe at me again. Why can't you and the crane simply let it go?

Let me state one more time and then let's drop it..........I never proposed in my OP that video be the ONLY source of someone's instruction. If you think so, then you are reading something into it that isn't there. I have repeated and reinforced multiple times on this thread now that I do not believe that someone can learn effectively ONLY from video. For someone to continue to try and say that I said the opposite, is just plain stupid, because I am here, and I should know what my intent was and what I believe!

I am looking at a video now. As I said before useful to check out students that are in another country running my school there and give them a few pointers to work on. You might not have noticed but there is a private function on YouTube .

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is this bit, in case you have forgotten. And as I have already pointed out to you...

I haven't been involved in this conversation, but as a black belt in one kenpo, I can see myself very easily picking up tech ideas from some other kenpo vid. It really is just a new name and signature, of stuff I already know.

 

[KPM]

Whether you mean to or not this more than implies you can learn just with the video. the only mention of an instructor is the bit about looking to see if you like the style before travelling a long way but it does go on to say you and a friend can learn from the video, you even recommend working through it slowly so yes I'm afraid you have said you can learn as a beginner. Granted, you may not have meant it but that's what this says

Geez! How is it that so many people can have such reading comprehension problems! Why do you 3 choose to continue to ignore this part, which was plainly stated:

Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction! At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.

Now just drop it.

 

[Tez3]

Geez! How is it that so many people can have such reading comprehension problems! Why do you 3 choose to continue to ignore this part, which was plainly stated:

Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction! At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.

Now just drop it.

Not a chance of dropping it when you command, I'm not yours to command......

Look I said you probably didn't mean it that way, it probably didn't sound that way in your head when you wrote it, but wrote it you did and no amount of back peddling on later posts will change what you wrote. Just accept you wrote something you later thought 'oh o' that didn't come across right, stop blaming other people, stop insulting them and just admit what you wrote was ambiguous at best, what we said it was at worst.

 

[Red Sun]

^ Proper Training

^ Can't throw a 1-2

^ No power, no technique

^ Can't land a body shot on a heavy bag

^ Proper Training

I don't think this is a debatable subject :/

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I would think, like everything, a majority of it depends on the person. Training with a live instructor, doesnt always produce stellar results either.

But, a good instructor would be more beneficial.

Video does allow for that which can be missed in a large group setting. If its a quality video. But, I dont think it should replace an actual instructor.

 

[Tez3]

There is a trend for young girls to learn ballet by watching videos, which means they learn to go en pointe by watching the videos, this is dangerous, damaging and potentially crippling especially at too young an age and without conditioning. You cannot learn ballet by watching videos, you cannot learn martial arts by watching videos. You can pick up tips, hints and ideas but you cannot learn a martial art without an instructor for all the same reasons you can't learn ballet.