can we all just get along

[hapki-bujutsu]

Does anyone ever see martial artists of all styles working togeather to promote the arts? I feel all can co-exist. It is good to have diffrent styles for difrent peoples needs. The biggest crime is when a school teaching a style doesn't make people aware of what the goal of the school is. If it is met then great. for example

sport martial arts

bjj- this is a sport art first but can help you as a fighter if the right things fall into place.

kickboxing- sport and fitness. not real close to a real street fight

tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.

tradional arts

goju and the like. form matters most. after 20 years of hard practice you would be a decent fighter but it takes that long to use what you learn for combat.

tai chi,judo,aikido. these arts are more about a connection to one self and ballence.

combat arts

JKD shootfighting etc

this are street arts to learn how to defend your self in the street.
that is the main goal.

then you have hapkido and kenpo type arts

these teach self defense while still holding a lot to tradition plus balence and connection and combat.

List like these could be put out reminding people that elemts of all exist in all styles but some are geared more in one way then another. This could save someone the fusteration of going school to school to find the right art for them.

everyone could apreciate what each style has to offer.
(sorry about the spelling. I have dyslexia and spell bad 95% of the time lol)

So what does everyone else think? does each art offer it's own rewards? is there a place for all arts? Shouldn't arts play on those strenghs so people don't lump them all in togeather and start the wrong style for them?

Thanks

 

[fringe_dweller]

First of all I'd be careful about classifying arts the way you just did.

I'd loosely interpret Muay Thai as kickboxing and that sure aint a sport.
BJJ again I wouldn't say is a sport, non-traditional Judo however I would say is.
Again, TKD is a sport but if those guys can do kicks like that at the height they do, imagine if they let loose one at chest height! You really can't write off any MAs as a sport - it depends on the application and training behind them.


I agree totally that there is room for all of the arts, I'd also say that due to physical makeup some arts work better for some people than others.

 

[Kroy]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
First of all I'd be careful about classifying arts the way you just did.

I'd loosely interpret Muay Thai as kickboxing and that sure aint a sport.
BJJ again I wouldn't say is a sport, non-traditional Judo however I would say is.
Again, TKD is a sport but if those guys can do kicks like that at the height they do, imagine if they let loose one at chest height! You really can't write off any MAs as a sport - it depends on the application and training behind them.


I agree totally that there is room for all of the arts, I'd also say that due to physical makeup some arts work better for some people than others.

I second that!

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
So what does everyone else think? does each art offer it's own rewards? is there a place for all arts? Shouldn't arts play on those strenghs so people don't lump them all in togeather and start the wrong style for them?

Thanks

I think you just lumped them all together enough for all of us.

7sm

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
Does anyone ever see martial artists of all styles working togeather to promote the arts? I feel all can co-exist. It is good to have diffrent styles for difrent peoples needs. The biggest crime is when a school teaching a style doesn't make people aware of what the goal of the school is. If it is met then great. for example

You explain that you feel all can co-exit, then you move on to give you opinions of various arts....with some fairly bad tone?

sport martial arts

bjj- this is a sport art first but can help you as a fighter if the right things fall into place.

I'd agree with this. BJJ is a sport. There are rules in BJJ....this makes it pretty clear that it is not a combat art. As my old BJJ instructor used to say, "Make no mistake, this is a sport. We may fight, but we do it by rules in a controlled environment"

kickboxing- sport and fitness. not real close to a real street fight

Though I'd agree with you here, kickboxing does help people's fighting ability in a way similar to BJJ.

tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.

Here's where ya got me saying, "Uhhhh". Have you ever trained with a traditionally trained TKD artist (Read: KOREAN TRAINED)? I'm not speaking about McDojang that rake in bucks based on teaching people fitness and tap-tap fighting. I've had friends that trained and were ranked in Korea in TKD...I'd love to see you explain to them that they can't fight. I'd rather be kicked by a horse.

tradional arts

goju and the like. form matters most. after 20 years of hard practice you would be a decent fighter but it takes that long to use what you learn for combat.

I'm curious as to where you came up with that figure. Traditionally trained (there's that phrase again) Goju ryu are very versed fighters.

tai chi,judo,aikido. these arts are more about a connection to one self and ballence.

I wouldn't say that at all. There is an unfortunate fitness craze today in the area of Taichi. This stands out much stronger nowdays (in the U.S.) then the actual martial aspects of the art. Too bad really.

Judo has become (sadly, imo) a Shiai Fest. Speed and brute strength have swallowed up much of technique and skill. It's rare to be able to find a good instructor from my experiances.

combat arts

JKD shootfighting etc

this are street arts to learn how to defend your self in the street.
that is the main goal.

I wouldn't say shootfighting is a combat art. Again...most shootfighting schools I've seen are training for tournaments...that isn't combat.

then you have hapkido and kenpo type arts

these teach self defense while still holding a lot to tradition plus balence and connection and combat.

List like these could be put out reminding people that elemts of all exist in all styles but some are geared more in one way then another. This could save someone the fusteration of going school to school to find the right art for them.

everyone could apreciate what each style has to offer.
(sorry about the spelling. I have dyslexia and spell bad 95% of the time lol)

So what does everyone else think? does each art offer it's own rewards? is there a place for all arts? Shouldn't arts play on those strenghs so people don't lump them all in togeather and start the wrong style for them?

Thanks

I don't think this last bit is possible. As we grow in life, our needs tend to change. The art that was perfect for me 9 years ago isn't the same as the one I study today. It's not about "studying the wrong style for them"...people learn different things from different arts at different stages of their lives. Of course, we often feel, "I wish I'd found this way back when"...but would you be who you are today?

 

[hapki-bujutsu]

I wasn't out to offend anyone just give my thoughts. I trained in goju with a master who trained in owkinia(however its spelled) He loved the art. He told me though that the one punch death that most(not all) ok and japa arts are based can work in the street but only after years and years. He told me my kenpo black belt aloud me to defend myself now. He was going to show me things that would work later. It took 9 years to get a black belt in this sytem. It was an amazing system.

I have trained with alot of usa tae kwon do black belts. Though they are not fighters(alot a know would tell you so) they need to be respected for what they do. they do pretty kicks that I could never h ope to do in a million years. these are gifted athletes.

The shootfighters i know train fro street but i have seen online ones that train for sport.

my fear is with sport martial arts is people thinking this makes them street fighters and getting hurt. We all have heard about the person who new a black belt who got beaten in a fight. that is becasue they used sport or tradtion in a fight.

I also disagree with kickboxing helping the way bjj does. In kick boxing you walk and dance around looking for a good opening to take. Although i feel kickboxers deserve are respect for what they do bjj is closer to street fighter because it comes out more like one guy moves then a blur. I was (but not proud of) a street fighter for a few years. Never saw one fight look like a kickboxing match but saw some one on ones look like a bjj match of sorts.
I also never have done nore seen one air kick of any kind done in a fight.

My point was people train for diffrent reasons and instructors need to be clearer on what they teach

I feel if a person lives on a bad street and they feel the need for some self defense and they walk into a tae kwon do school they just walked into the wrong place. The same for some one who sees a chuck norris movie or show and wants to learn to do what he does and walks into a jkd school.

diffrent strokes for diffrent folks.

also if you go by the reasons of the current masters of-tai chi, judo, and aikido it is about what i said. being a better person and finding ballence within them selves.

One school in my area teaches ishin ryu then teaches ways to make it practical after class. plus kickboxing later. I think this is a wellrounded school. somthing for everyone.

i know I take alot of slack for this last though but i don't care if you are a 75 year old lady who has only studied tai chi for the last 10 years. You are a martil artist in my book and have my respect. some arts just do more with the art then martial side of things.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.


Gee...glad you didn't rush to judgement here and insert any stylistic bigotry or anything.

There are TKD people out there who practice it as an art and form of self defense, and not a sport. Granted, they're a minority, but many are holdovers from the old days when the first wave of Korean instructors came over to the U.S. These original instructors grew up on some pretty rough streets of post WWII and post Korean War Seoul, and trained in the Korean arts before Tae Kwon Do was even a word.

You've also fallen into a common fallacy that a lot of people buy into...that a style's students (insert style here) are not fighters simply because your experience tells you so. I've seen people level this criticism at Judo and Karate as well as TKD. We get all encompassing statements like "Judo guys can't fight in a real fight", or "Karate guys can make their kata look nice, but on the street they'd get killed." The opposite of this fallacy is when people from a particular style claim that is the "ultimate" in self defense.

A large number of the people who line up to call TKD "a martial sport, and not a martial art" are folks from other Korean styles who arrogate themselves by claiming their art is more "street effective."

What, exactly, was the purpose of the title of this thread?


SCS

 

[theletch1]

What, exactly, was the purpose of the title of this thread?

I think the purpose of the title was just what it appeared to be and was consequently answered (as to why we can't) by the initial post. While many people espouse the idea of perfect harmony across all aspects of the martial arts (I'm not one of them) they too often fall prey to prejudices that are built into them by they're instructors/peers. I'm not saying that the instructor is openly putting down other styles or attempting to build animosity toward other styles into the system. It's just things that are personal preference seem to come out without even trying. I really don't believe that the title of the thread was misleading to anyone but Hapki-bujutsu. Without even realizing what he had done, he furthered the same prejudices that he was saying needed to be gotten away from. As for me, I think certain ways about certain styles and would need to train in those styles to change my opinion of them/outlook on them. As much as I hate to admit this in the open there are certain styles that I consider a real joke and really don't have any reason to feel that way about them except for what others have told me about them. I don't think I'm the only one who would have to admit this and it is this particular trait that I feel will keep us from ever "just getting along".

 

[NYCRonin]

Well said, 'theletch 1'.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
First of all I'd be careful about classifying arts the way you just did.

I'd loosely interpret Muay Thai as kickboxing and that sure aint a sport.
BJJ again I wouldn't say is a sport, non-traditional Judo however I would say is.
Again, TKD is a sport but if those guys can do kicks like that at the height they do, imagine if they let loose one at chest height! You really can't write off any MAs as a sport - it depends on the application and training behind them.

In the arts that he catagorized you could generalize a great deal and say that a good portion of the practitioners of these arts emphasize the sport aspect of their system.
TKD does have a tendency to promote their sporting aspect, yet you are right... don't be on the tracks when the train comes through.
BJJ promoted it's self 99% through sport, but no it's not just for the ring (or the octagon) and can do just fine on the street.

I honestly don't know how you don't see kickboxing as a sport, or Muay Thai... just wondering what gives there?

Thanks
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
tae kwon do. Completely sport. A style never to be used in a fight. I have known instuctors who pass themselves off as fighters to their students. But as my hapkido instructor said-the art o tkd is flashy and very pretty. people who do this art should be respected for thw hard work and dedication. people work hard at what they do. but a tkd student is more like a dancer and not fighter at all. tkd mimics fighting. this should be said up front.

The day you really underestimate a TKD black belt's ability to fight is the day you taste shoe leather.

Your brother
John

 

[hardheadjarhead]

As much as I hate to admit this in the open there are certain styles that I consider a real joke and really don't have any reason to feel that way about them except for what others have told me about them.

That was refreshingly honest.

The day you really underestimate a TKD black belt's ability to fight is the day you taste shoe leather.

My point exactly.

If one were to misunderestimate a grappler, one might end up sucking the pavement. If one were to midunderestimate a Filipino martial artist, one might end up tasting cold steel. And so on, and so on. There is simple truth to this.

In thirty years I haven't ever really found an art that I didn't think had something to it for someone (except for Hikuda...see thread "Liars in the Martial Arts). Even when they're "not my cup of tea" I readily admit that they have something to offer, depending upon a person's goals in training. I suspect every art has a niche to fill.

Where we get friction is when:

1. People try to make a square peg fit a round hole...and then loudly declare it to be a round peg. You see this when one tries to make a particular art fit an inappropriate situation.

2. People vainly go out of there way to trash another art in order to validate their own. They take empowerment from this. They inherit their instructor's biases and believe in their instructor's myths.

3. People outside a system go to great lengths defining what that system is or is not...all this without exploring the system by actually studying it. It is much easier to give a casual dismissal of it with a wave of the hand.

Martial arts are agonistic and somewhat tribal in nature, so the tendency is for the participants...particularly the young ones..."not to get along." To quickly dismiss a system, at best, locks you out of any insights that system might offer. At worst, you'll end up humiliated when you run into that someone, somewhere, who managed to work that method to their own advantage and to your ruin. You end up eating shoeleather, sucking pavement, or tasting cold steel.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Damian Mavis]

hapki-bujutsu, you talk about harmony and then you give your ignorant opinions on various arts that offends them all?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Jester]

I don't think the person who started this thread intended to insult anyones style. He just listed the styles from a very stereo typical viewpoint.

I think laying that asside as a mistake and responding to his question, can martial arts style co-exist I think the answer is yes. The organistaion of the club I train at is an affiliation of all different clubs and styles.

They all grade together around a base syllabus altered for each art. I think it's great and it certainly seems to work, cross training is encouraged as are new ideas.

On a sub note you might also want to have a look at the following thread, might be of interest

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11123

 

[hapki-bujutsu]

wow people are touchy hey I said everyone sould respect what everyoen does. I also said I rspect tkd people because they doe feats i could never do. I respect them alot. great athletic prowes!!

I also said that all of teh arts have elemts of all in them. Tkd has some defense but is mainly for sport. The tkd guys i know say this. I just think you take somthing difrent from difrent arts. People should have some way of knowing there goals so they can find the right school for them.

I am alwsys opened to others thoughts that is why i asked. those of you who keep saying tkd can be a fighting art and don't this or that are you saying my friends who take it for sport and say they would fight difrently in a real fight are wrong. The world is filled with difrent people with difrent needs. We should all respect all levels of the martial arts. Even if you are a tia chi person who never thinks you will ever fight you are a martial artist in my book!! All of us who study are. No matter why the reasins we study. I respect all arts and all people. So what if you take a martial for fitness. I even think tae bow is cool. I am sure those who said teh stuff about tkd feel that tae bow can be a fighting art too but I do not. But I still have seen the tapes and my friends wife does it three times a week and I resoect her for it. Kung fu is word meaning skills. Your skills maybe worse better or just diffrentr then mine. thats cool. thats what makes life fun.

 

[hapki-bujutsu]

cool thread jester thanks!

 

[Jay Bell]

those of you who keep saying tkd can be a fighting art and don't this or that are you saying my friends who take it for sport and say they would fight difrently in a real fight are wrong. The world is filled with difrent people with difrent needs.

Yes, I most certainly would. Reason being, they...like yourself...cannot make a judgement call based on the entirety of TKD training. You cannot define an art based on a very narrow viewed opinion judged from pad-tap fighting. There are TKD schools that teach combat and do it very well.

As Jester stated, you seem to have very stereo-typical outlooks on what is and isn't in martial arts....case in point:

Even if you are a tia chi person who never thinks you will ever fight you are a martial artist in my book!!

Newsflash....Taichi is a martial art. The fitness stuff came later..

Then we come here:

I respect all arts and all people.

Then,

I even think tae bow is cool.

*sigh*

 

[hapki-bujutsu]

quote: Even if you are a tia chi person who never thinks you will ever fight you are a martial artist in my book!!


Newsflash....Taichi is a martial art. The fitness stuff came later..
my point too! funny you seem upset yet we agree? odd.

Then we come here:
YOu sigh because I like ti bow? SOrry but i like all facets of the martial arts. I also agree that some tkd school do teach the old ways i am just saying most tkd schools today are geared twords sport. I am sorry if you think that is not so. It is a big sport that i love to watch.

Say what you want about my friends but I feel that there is nothing wrong for taking tkd to be in a sport. It is a great sport and you take alot away from it.

The one thing you all don't seem to feel but i must say i do is this
9 out of ten times it is not the art but the person.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

>>>The one thing you all don't seem to feel but i must say i do is this 9 out of ten times it is not the art but the person.


Nobody here indicated that the person isn't a factor in combat. OF COURSE the person is a factor. Do you honestly think the other posters think otherwise?

If it isn't the art, then given that they "have the right stuff" the sport TKD guys you hang with can in fact make their style of TKD work in a fight?

You're contradicting yourself, Hapki-bujutsu. You stereotype certain arts, pigeon-hole them insofar as their worth in combat. You then try and back off with the "Its the person, not the style" argument.


SCS

 

[clapping_tiger]

You just beat me to the punch. I was just going to say that it was the person in the fight not the style. Another point most of us don't think about is that we always put this style against this style or think of ourselves defending ourselves against another trained person. What about defending yourself against the guy who has never trained. By my experience these are to ones you are most likely to get into it with. So if you have any experience, and trained hitting a bag and such. You already have more than most people do coming into a defense situation. But no matter if someone has trained or not. They may still be able to knock your block off. Regardless of your rank or style.