Can a martial art kills?

[Gerry Seymour]

And a SD instructor will have training and experience in setting up and countering these ambushes?

Some will. Some won’t.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which I am not sure what purpose they serve. I mean if you wanted to have an example of its raining wear a hat, Coopers color codes would be the one.

So aparently if I am not somewhere threatening like now I can be condition white. Stop scanning the cupboards in my bedroom for monsters.

But if I am walking down the street past a bunch of drunk roided up neck tattooed duschebags. I might want to be in yellow or orange and then use my training to avoid them.

I am with Jojo on this we are not discussing a secret skill here.


Now we could be. I have done bodyguard courses and cash in transit courses where I did learn actual protective and awareness skills. I have done sales courses where I have learned to manipulate people. But I am not paying money for color codes.

No, nothing secret. The code, IMO, just gives a shorthand for discussing the strategies.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because a boxing gym has what. less street experience within its ranks than a self defence gym?
Sucker punching is a risk in MMA. People do it off the touch gloves.

Now boxing allready has the mechanics in place to deal with sucker punching. This is because the mechanics of punching dont really change. The same opportunities that need to be present in a ring also need to be present on the street.

I think Paul is defining a sucker punch as one that comes without warning of danger, so differentiated from a surprise punch, I guess. The punch at the glove touch would be a surprise punch. One at the weigh-in, while acting casual, would be a sucker punch. In either case, I stand by my assertion that a well-trained boxer is probably better prepared than someone who trains too soft, but has specific awareness training.

 

[drop bear]

I think Paul is defining a sucker punch as one that comes without warning of danger, so differentiated from a surprise punch, I guess. The punch at the glove touch would be a surprise punch. One at the weigh-in, while acting casual, would be a sucker punch. In either case, I stand by my assertion that a well-trained boxer is probably better prepared than someone who trains too soft, but has specific awareness training.

I will have to do a whole thing about not getting sucker punched at some point.

 

[drop bear]

No, nothing secret. The code, IMO, just gives a shorthand for discussing the strategies.

OK. How would you actually use the color codes.

 

[Paul_D]

I think Paul is defining a sucker punch as one that comes without warning of danger

Yes.

Drop Bear posted a great video a while back in another thread of people being sucker punched. One in particular stood out, a guy asking for a cigarette off someone, chats to him than sucker punches him. Victim was spark out before he knew he was in danger. The attacker was clearly an experience criminal who uses deception to mask his real intent, then once the victim is unconscious or dazed can releive him of his belongings. Ofcourse, Drop Bear being Drop Bear he claimed it was an unskilled punch because he was a criminal not a trained fighter.

I can see that you also now appear to be discussing consensual fighting in the ring, (weigh ins and glove taps) with someone I have on ignore, I don't suppose there are any prizes for me guessing who it is?

Anyway, now he's succesfully ruined another SD thread, I'll get my coat and leave you to talk consensual fighting with him. Good luck, you'll need it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will have to do a whole thing about not getting sucker punched at some point.

Please do. Start a thread - it’s worth a separate discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK. How would you actually use the color codes.

As I said, it’s just a shorthand. If we both know the codes, I can say, “If you are in condition yellow and see...”, and we both know I mean you are alert for signals, but haven’t already detected anything that makes you think there is one.

For me, I also overlay them with discussion of the effects of the neurochemicals and psychological processes that can be involved.

 

[jobo]

LOL, yes I can see where you're heading with this and I'm not going to have an arguement with you, but yes. I know.


I think it is. There is no reason a stranger needs to stand close enough to sucker punch you if they are just want to talk. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Like I said, every time you drive your car it doesn't mean you'll crash, but you stil wear your seatbelt, just in case. I'm not suggesting every situation will end in violence, or is started for that purpose, sometimes people are genuinely just lost and want directions. But if they are genuine, I am of the opinion that you don't need to be that close to talk to me.

The discussion was that a boxer is better prepared to deal with violence than someone who trains SD. I am of the opinion that they are not. My viewpoint is that a person who can only deal with violence once they get punched in the face, is not better prepared than someone who can prevent it getting to the point in the first place.

this whole train of thought only applies of the boxer is not street aware, as above you don't need to train sd to be aware that someone might try and rob you, if our boxer is switched on so that he can't be sucker punched from say someone,asking directions, then he is in a much better place than someone who has only trained soft techniques, the punch comes, he,side steps and pow, no more mugger

 

[drop bear]

As I said, it’s just a shorthand. If we both know the codes, I can say, “If you are in condition yellow and see...”, and we both know I mean you are alert for signals, but haven’t already detected anything that makes you think there is one.

For me, I also overlay them with discussion of the effects of the neurochemicals and psychological processes that can be involved.

Really?

I just hate that stuff. Scared is scared. Knowing which chemicals are at work might be fun but doesn't really help.

We do a fair bit of mental prep but it leans more to the practical rather than acedemic.

 

[drop bear]

this whole train of thought only applies of the boxer is not street aware, as above you don't need to train sd to be aware that someone might try and rob you, if our boxer is switched on so that he can't be sucker punched from say someone,asking directions, then he is in a much better place than someone who has only trained soft techniques, the punch comes, he,side steps and pow, no more mugger

Not even. You do spend a lot of your time in boxing for the ring managing distance. The threats of those distances dont really change. The tools to counter those threats only kinda change.

And most self defence people teach this wrong. Because if you think that because you have your geoff Thomson fence up you are safe. You are sadly mistaken.


Anyway managing distance. For the ring. I mean the street, i mean self defence. Or mabye it is just a meta concept.

 

[drop bear]

Yes.

Drop Bear posted a great video a while back in another thread of people being sucker punched. One in particular stood out, a guy asking for a cigarette off someone, chats to him than sucker punches him. Victim was spark out before he knew he was in danger. The attacker was clearly an experience criminal who uses deception to mask his real intent, then once the victim is unconscious or dazed can releive him of his belongings. Ofcourse, Drop Bear being Drop Bear he claimed it was an unskilled punch because he was a criminal not a trained fighter.

I can see that you also now appear to be discussing consensual fighting in the ring, (weigh ins and glove taps) with someone I have on ignore, I don't suppose there are any prizes for me guessing who it is?

Anyway, now he's succesfully ruined another SD thread, I'll get my coat and leave you to talk consensual fighting with him. Good luck, you'll need it.

The difference is I am not talking self defence methods from what I read about in a book. These are self defence methods and concepts I have pulled of and worked through.

I have been here a few times and tried a few different tricks to manage this dynamic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really?

I just hate that stuff. Scared is scared. Knowing which chemicals are at work might be fun but doesn't really help.

We do a fair bit of mental prep but it leans more to the practical rather than acedemic.

For a lot of people, learning about what's happening inside helps them get a handle on why things don't work the way they wish. It works when I'm teaching managers how to deal with angry people, too. People tend to think reasoning will help calm someone (or that they can reason through fear).

 

[drop bear]

For a lot of people, learning about what's happening inside helps them get a handle on why things don't work the way they wish. It works when I'm teaching managers how to deal with angry people, too. People tend to think reasoning will help calm someone (or that they can reason through fear).

It is more of a negotiation than an argument.

 

[lklawson]

Which I am not sure what purpose they serve.

Then you didn't even bother skimming wikipedia, never-mind reading it.

I'll start you off. Among the many possibilities, Cooper's Color Codes help facilitate discussion about the concepts.

 

[jobo]

Then you didn't even bother skimming wikipedia, never-mind reading it.

I'll start you off. Among the many possibilities, Cooper's Color Codes help facilitate discussion about the concepts.

coopers colour codes facilitate discussions about cooper colour codes, that much is self evidently true

 

[lklawson]

coopers colour codes facilitate discussions about cooper colour codes, that much is self evidently true

In exactly the same way that differentiating between a jab and a hook, facilitates the discussion about punches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

An undertone that seems to be coming through some posts here is that people don't really need things like Cooper's color codes, because they already get the concepts. My experience is that many of them do not. Some have never thought about these thing, and need someplace to start. Others have considered it, and think MA training will give them preternatural awareness at all times. And some get it already, and these shorthands still give a way for them to discuss strategies and concepts more easily.

 

[drop bear]

In exactly the same way that differentiating between a jab and a hook, facilitates the discussion about punches.

Like the force equation teaches correct punching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Like the force equation teaches correct punching.

It doesn't teach it, but it can help explain to those who aren't really thinking about it right.