Boy dies from headlock. Are you prepared?

[ballen0351]

They also have different priorities-one of which is getting every rifleman into combat-oversimplified things tend to reduce potential injuries as well....I've found that some of the best and simplest responses for a headlock type situation-depending upon frames (which is why the whole "how would your art respond" question is generally nonsense) consist of picking up the attacker (sometimes from Principle #3, which is what we call the groin) and dropping him on his head. Practice that enough-especially on Marine Corps scale-and there will be injuries.

Yeah I agree. I just will never ever forget "GRAB TWIST PULL GRAG SWEEP STOMP" I must have yelled that what felt like a million times. To this day whenever I see a headlock or standing rear choke that pops in my head and I giggle. I actually tried it once when a small guy Graber me from behind in a rear choke I went to grab but since I was about a foot taller then my attacker his feet were off the ground and I grabbed a big handful of thigh above his knee.

 

[Hanzou]

There's some validity to what you say, though we can't really say that either of them had ever trained to do anything, and weren't simply mimicking what they'd seen...as boys will do.

Hence the purpose of this thread. I was doing headlocks before I ever stepped foot in a dojo. I can imagine that most males would say the same. I didn't learn to get out of them until I took grappling as an adult because my Shotokan dojo never addressed them.

The headlock is a very common, simple, and potentially dangerous lock. As Buka said, its counters should be trained consistently. Especially for women who often suffer from a height/weight/strength/power disadvantage against male assailants.

 

[Grenadier]

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[Danny T]

1. Died from a RNC not a headlock.
"if the set up is different then the pass is not the same." ???

The guy did a great job of pressing his hip into the other's armpit and staying twisted to prevent the arm from going around his body. Because the choked guy turned his head outward the headlock became a RNC and was maintained. Because the positions are different it is no longer a headlock.

2. How different would the counters be if all being the same as what was on the video. Every counter shown was with the attacked persons arm around the back of the attacker. In the video his arm stays in front of the attackers body. He should have at some point countered by wrapping his arm around the attacker's body but didn't or maybe he couldn't because of the pressure. Dealing with the fact his arm never was around the attackers body how does that change what he could have done?

 

[Hanzou]

1. Died from a RNC not a headlock.
"if the set up is different then the pass is not the same." ???

No, its a headlock that transitions into a choke. An RNC is applied when behind the opponent. There was a point where he did attempt to apply an RNC, but he couldn't lock it in, so he shifted to a headlock in order to control him and punch his face.

2. How different would the counters be if all being the same as what was on the video. Every counter shown was with the attacked persons arm around the back of the attacker. In the video his arm stays in front of the attackers body. He should have at some point countered by wrapping his arm around the attacker's body but didn't or maybe he couldn't because of the pressure. Dealing with the fact his arm never was around the attackers body how does that change what he could have done?

He didn't because he was using both hands to try to stop the punches. He had several opportunities to wrap his arm around his assailant (about 1:40 onward), but instead he was more worried about covering up his face. Ironically, he could have used both his arms to establish control versus his opponent's one arm that was punching him (his other arm was maintaining the headlock). Unfortunately by using both of his hands to cover his face, he made the situation far worse for himself.

I can't be too harsh on the kid though. He wasn't trained, so he panicked and paid the ultimate price.

 

[elder999]

No, its a headlock that transitions into a choke. An RNC is applied when behind the opponent. There was a point where he did attempt to apply an RNC, but he couldn't lock it in, so he shifted to a headlock in order to control him and punch his face.

Yeppers....a RNC is, after all, a Rear Naked Choke.....

I can't be too harsh on the kid though. He wasn't trained, so he panicked and paid the ultimate price.

Yeah, the extended video is pretty gruesome.....

 

[Danny T]

No, its a headlock that transitions into a choke. An RNC is applied when behind the opponent. There was a point where he did attempt to apply an RNC, but he couldn't lock it in, so he shifted to a headlock in order to control him and punch his face.

I'd call it a NC however, in the breakdown discussion, at 10:48, he states when he turns his chin out it turns into a Lion Killer, RNC and he calls it is a RNC at least one more time during the discussion.

He didn't because he was using both hands to try to stop the punches. He had several opportunities to wrap his arm around his assailant (about 1:40 onward), but instead he was more worried about covering up his face. Ironically, he could have used both his arms to establish control versus his opponent's one arm that was punching him (his other arm was maintaining the headlock). Unfortunately by using both of his hands to cover his face, he made the situation far worse for himself.

I can't be too harsh on the kid though. He wasn't trained, so he panicked and paid the ultimate price.

Correct, he didn't but in the breakdown they began the demo from the arm behind the body and not in the manner in happen in reality in that it was in front.

So the only defense to the headlock is the arm has to be behind the attacker?

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, I disagree that it was a RNC, but whatever. That's really besides the point.

]Correct, he didn't but in the breakdown they began the demo from the arm behind the body and not in the manner in happen in reality in that it was in front.

I understand your point, but there's really no reason you can't get that arm around your assailant's waist at some point. I mean he can't stop you from doing it. Even that kid had an opportunity to do it.

So the only defense to the headlock is the arm has to be behind the attacker?

I personally can't think of a headlock defense where you didn't wrap your arm around the back of the guy doing the head lock. The branch of Bjj where I spent my white belt years (Relson Gjj) we were trained to wrap that arm around the back first, so for us its almost instinctual. Without that? That just seems weird to me.

There's a HL escape where a Aikido guy pinches him in the thigh, or hits him in the groin that I posted earlier. Can't imagine that being high percentage though. :uhoh:

Maybe someone else here has done one without that detail?

 

[drop bear]

In the favelas of Brazil, as in much of the rest of the world, life is cheap. In a world where children are kidnapped and forced to fight in wars before they become teenagers, this is relatively minor, sadly-travel the world, don't just see the pretty parts, and it's easy enough to see.

Hell, I had to get out of India, 35 odd years ago, because I simply got tired of dirty, begging children I could do little for, and constantly seeing dead bodies in the street. And it felt "dirty," as in, "unsanitary." :barf:

Of course, I was barely out of childhood, then.....



Seems to me like you mean that you didn't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke...:lfao:

"A headlock can become a choke." Good that you pointed that out, since the boy didn't die from a headlock, as the title of your OP says-he was choked, and we do chokes all the time, don't we? I mean, all that's happened here is that one of the participants deliberately ignored practices administrative control: he didn't release the hold when the other guy tapped. Of course, these were kids just mucking about, apparently without anyone there to really control or instruct them, or this wouldn't have happened.



These "other moves that you don't?" Have they been "removed?" or simply removed from free sparring/randori/shiai? I know, for instance, that ippon seionage can be performed with uke's arm supinated-though there aren't a great many judo dojos in the country that ever teach it that way, since it's not permitted in contests. However, there are dojo and "jiu-jitsu academies ( :lfao: )" all over the world that have people regularly putting each other to sleep by choking-this in itself, the regular and deliberate causing of unconsciousness through the compression of the arterio-baroflex and sympathetic nerves (the hypoglossal nerve, the vagus nerve, etc.), and or the depression of arterial and jugular flow to and from the dura matter-might ultimately prove to be lethal, much like concussions in other sports have today.



Actually, I do.

I'm friends with several koryu practitioners, have training in koryu myself, and have been privileged to see several densho, though these last were mostly useless to me, as they are meant for people with more depth in their ryu. I've also had the privilege of being permitted to practice in modern replicas of yoroi, to see just how some movements and techniques were originally meant to be executed in armor (and be lethal). With that said, while deaths did occur, it's safe to say that outside of duels, grudges and accidents, samurai weren't regularly killing each other in practice. Deaths have occurred in judo as well, though not so many since its inception , and none from choking-though the choke has been fatal many times when used by law enforcement. In fact, most judo deaths have been head injuries from bad falls....which I can't help but believe has something to do with BJJ academies mostly practicing from the knees....what cagão papo furado ..:lol:

But still less lethal.so if you look at something like judo. You won't be throwing people in arm bars or neck cranks. Those moves have been removed. Or even removed from randori. And the comment of less lethal so can be trained live applies.

Do you have any proof outside your imagination of how samurai trained.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, I disagree that it was a RNC, but whatever. That's really besides the point.



I understand your point, but there's really no reason you can't get that arm around your assailant's waist at some point. I mean he can't stop you from doing it. Even that kid had an opportunity to do it.



I personally can't think of a headlock defense where you didn't wrap your arm around the back of the guy doing the head lock. The branch of Bjj where I spent my white belt years (Relson Gjj) we were trained to wrap that arm around the back first, so for us its almost instinctual. Without that? That just seems weird to me.

There's a HL escape where a Aikido guy pinches him in the thigh, or hits him in the groin that I posted earlier. Can't imagine that being high percentage though. :uhoh:

Maybe someone else here has done one without that detail?

Hip bump and high crotch can both work from a thigh pinch or groin grab. If it works it is faster. So you don't spend any time in the headlock if they flinch out. If it doesn't there are options.

Vingativa in capoeira would get you safe if the arm is in front.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EjSSoZBOiKM

 

[elder999]

But still less lethal.so if you look at something like judo. You won't be throwing people in arm bars or neck cranks. Those moves have been removed. Or even removed from randori. And the comment of less lethal so can be trained live applies.

Simply removed from randori/shiai, and maybe not even so much...many of the throws, like ippon seionage, were just adjusted to prevent injury.

Sorry, but I gotta continue to object to saying they were 'removed" from judo, simply because they aren't permitted in randori. Likewise for atemi. Granted, one could probably visit a hundred dojo in New York state alone, and not find one that teaches the judo atemi and ate waza, or wristlocks, or anything that is no longer permitted in contests....or even judo kata, for that matter, but those things haven't been "removed," and that doesn't mean that there isn't one where those things are taught-hell, when I was a kid, there were at least three.....:lfao:

Do you have any proof outside your imagination of how samurai trained.

Pretty sure I answered that question, but if you find it less than satisfactory, there are these things called "books.

I'd suggest you find one, and read it....:lfao:

 

[Chris Parker]

Do you have any proof outside your imagination of how samurai trained.

Not that he needs it, but to back Elder here… mate, you really have no idea.

Elder's comments on bushi jiyu keiko are accurate and correct. You, er… you do know what koryu are, don't you? Or are you just arguing as you don't understand the answers you're getting?

 

[Hanzou]

Granted, one could probably visit a hundred dojo in New York state alone, and not find one that teaches the judo atemi and ate waza, or wristlocks, or anything that is no longer permitted in contests....or even judo kata, for that matter.....

That's a real shame.

Gotta get those Olympic sponserships though, even if it slowly kills the art itself.

 

[elder999]

That's a real shame.

Gotta get those Olympic sponserships though, even if it slowly kills the art itself.

You want really shameful?

Ne waza is suppressed so much by referees in contests that there are judo schools where judoka are simply taught throws and how to resist going to the ground-or (maybe) to resist on the ground until the ref stands both players up again, and there is no groundfighting, per se......

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You want really shameful?

Ne waza is suppressed so much by referees in contests that there are judo schools where judoka are simply taught throws and how to resist going to the ground-or (maybe) to resist on the ground until the ref stands both players up again, and there is no groundfighting, per se......

The interesting side effect of this is that you end up with not only some judoka who don't know how to do anything on the ground except stall and wait for the standup - but you also get other judoka who are absolutely phenomenal at blowing through resistance and getting the submission fast before the ref calls for the reset.

Simply removed from randori/shiai, and maybe not even so much...many of the throws, like ippon seionage, were just adjusted to prevent injury.

Sorry, but I gotta continue to object to saying they were 'removed" from judo, simply because they aren't permitted in randori. Likewise for atemi. Granted, one could probably visit a hundred dojo in New York state alone, and not find one that teaches the judo atemi and ate waza, or wristlocks, or anything that is no longer permitted in contests....or even judo kata, for that matter, but those things haven't been "removed," and that doesn't mean that there isn't one where those things are taught-hell, when I was a kid, there were at least three....

Interesting philosophical question as to what it means for a technique to be "removed" from a system. Let's take the variation on seio nage where you supinate the opponent's arm to apply an armlock as he goes over and dump him on his head instead of on his back. It's not in the official list of Kodokan throws, it's not in any of the judo kata I've seen (although I'm not 100% familiar with all the kata, so I might have missed it somewhere), and it's not used or allowed in randori. Some judo practitioners doubtless know how to apply this variation. I've seen it taught in gendai jujutsu systems which are mostly derived from judo (such as Shingitai Jujutsu). However I would venture to say that the majority of judo black belts have never practiced the move.

If a technique is not part of the official curriculum of an art and it's not widely practiced in the art and the institutional knowledge of the technique has been attenuated to almost nothing, at what point to you say that the technique is no longer really part of the art but rather just the skillset of some individual practitioners?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Ok let me get this straight is it the headlock that is deadly or what it can turn into?
If it the headlock in and of itself what makes it lethal.
If it is what the lock can turn into then I understand what is going on but at this time I see more discussion on the choke then on the actual head lock unless the head lock is supposed to be applied to a part of the body that is not the head.
Not being an *** here just want some qualification on what we are actually discussing

 

[drop bear]

Not that he needs it, but to back Elder here… mate, you really have no idea.

Elder's comments on bushi jiyu keiko are accurate and correct. You, er… you do know what koryu are, don't you? Or are you just arguing as you don't understand the answers you're getting?

Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.

So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.

So it is about believing not about understanding.

 

[ballen0351]

Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.

So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.

So it is about believing not about understanding.

You did well in history class I bet

 

[MJS]

[video=youtube_share;OfRCh_xth6Q]http://youtu.be/OfRCh_xth6Q[/video]

Warning, video is a bit disturbing....

One of the better Gracie Breakdowns honestly. I couldn't find the original clip. Anyway, the cool thing about this vid is that it shows the bjj response to the headlock, which I think are very good. The headlock is a very common and potentially fatal move that is simple to perform for even the untrained.

What is your style's response to this potentially deadly tactic?

Nothing new here, really. This is why I'm an advocate for a) having some grappling experience, even if just the bare basics, and b) training in a realistic fashion. As for what I'd do...well, my goal is to get away, not stand there and grapple with the guy. Do whatever I have to do to get free, and go from there. And no, while I do believe in the 'dirty shots', I'm not of the mind that they're as 'deadly' as some make them out to be.

 

[MJS]

Quick question KFW (and Drop Bear); Do you think a thigh pinch can stop a headlock?

There's nothing like that in Bjj. I was wondering if either of you had run across such a counter, and if it worked.

Shouldn't be a problem. IMO, the goal of a headlock is control with one hand, while punching with the other. Of course, it could also be to take the person down. Even if the person has control of your hand, that doesn't mean you're defenseless. But yes, the pinch works. I've done it, I've had it done to me.