Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??

[ETinCYQX]

Yep. I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set. Staves or tonfa allowed? Or perhaps we start in a clinch first? Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.

Let's reiterate something I've been saying for ages that not that many people seem to get. The Olympic style guy, even competing in regional tournaments only, has fought every single guy at his weight and belt level over the course of his competition career. That means he has had full contact matches with different fighters with different strategies over and over and over again. What he's doing is fighting. The way you learn how to fight is by fighting as many different people as you can with as many different approaches as you can. If I can land a good, powerful round house kick that drops a black belt who is actively trying to launch my head into the stands and has been training for 7-8 years to do just that, what exactly changes when I want to do the same thing to an untrained thug? Rhetorical question. Nothing changes. Variables are variables and they exist in the ring too.

As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa. Clinch, all I have to do is decide if I want to break it and get my range back or use one of the throws myself and every other WTF guy learns. Even better, I'm a sport Judo player too. Same thing. What makes you so hard to throw compared to another competitive Judoka? What makes you so hard to kick/punch compared to a competitive TKD player?

It's easy, scarily easy, to tell who hasn't trained sport TaeKwonDo.

 

[mastercole]

yes this is a tkd board and it may open your eyes up to the fact that not all tkdists do kkw/wtf style tkd. I have done tkd for 6 years, i dont do kkw style, in fact i couldnt even tell you how the scoring works in a sport tkd match. Many here dont do kkw tkd, so obviously many here would not have sparred under that ruleset.

That is to bad that, as you say, many would not have sparred under that rule set, the greater experience you have, the more you learn. Over the past four decades, I have been fortunate to have trained in various Karate styles and types of Taekwondo/ tae kwon do / Taekwon-do. For me, it was good to have had that experience, and then open my eyes as you call it, and realize that Kukkiwon is the genuine article, when it comes to Taekwondo. It was a natural progression. I was also fortunate, later on, after started learning Kukkiwon Taekwondo, to get involved in the WTF side of things as well.

As for other types of tae kwon do / Taekwon-do, been there, done that. To me, they are archaic and backwards. I look forward to progress, as I always have.

By the way. the Kukkiwon, and WTF are very different things.

 

[mastercole]

Let's reiterate something I've been saying for ages that not that many people seem to get. The Olympic style guy, even competing in regional tournaments only, has fought every single guy at his weight and belt level over the course of his competition career. That means he has had full contact matches with different fighters with different strategies over and over and over again. What he's doing is fighting. The way you learn how to fight is by fighting as many different people as you can with as many different approaches as you can. If I can land a good, powerful round house kick that drops a black belt who is actively trying to launch my head into the stands and has been training for 7-8 years to do just that, what exactly changes when I want to do the same thing to an untrained thug? Rhetorical question. Nothing changes. Variables are variables and they exist in the ring too.

As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa. Clinch, all I have to do is decide if I want to break it and get my range back or use one of the throws myself and every other WTF guy learns. Even better, I'm a sport Judo player too. Same thing. What makes you so hard to throw compared to another competitive Judoka? What makes you so hard to kick/punch compared to a competitive TKD player?

It's easy, scarily easy, to tell who hasn't trained sport TaeKwonDo.

I agree with you 100%. I come from a karate, old school tae kwon do background, and I can tell you from experience, Kukkiwon Taekwondo is superior, in every way. The old men who were teachers of all of our teachers made it so, they started the ball of improvement rolling, and they endorse the improved curriculum that Kukkiwon follows, and they endorse the elite modern training methods of WTF fighters. These are men in their 90's, who were grinding out Pyongahn's, in duck stances back before any of us were. They say the evolved system is better.

So some people think they are being "traditional" by not following the Kukkiwon, but in fact, they are not following their big seniors, and that is not traditional at all.

Here is something I wrote a while back and posted somewhere a while back about Olympic sparring.
----
I will also say this about sparring. Taekwondo has within it, many types of sparring. However, some people are critical the most well known type, Shihap Kyorugi, the type of Taekwondo competition found in the Olympics. But Shihap Kyorugi was invented with Self Defense in mind just as much as it was hoped to be an international sporting event. Our intelligent seniors made it both a self defense practice, and an international sporting event.

Here was there thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's

- bare fist and foot to strike the target forces the use of correct shape of technique, not a covered hand and foot which changes the technique and allows it to be sloppy.

- full force blows, as used in self defense because we must learn to deliver them as well as roll with them to survive a fight

- limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

- limited target area, making that area easier to defend and harder to successfully attack, thereby forcing the attacking techniques to a higher skill level in order to defeat the well defended target area

- allowing knockout, thus adding intense psychological pressure. This places REAL fear into the equation, and fear is the emotional obstruction to a clear mindset, where decision to action has to occur seamlessly, without hesitation. Indecision is the Grim Reaper of self defense and fear brings it forth at the worst time

The International Olympic Committee considered these factors of realism (along with other factors) and accepted Shihap Kyorugi as an Olympic event.

 

[mastercole]

Trace your Taekwondo back to it's root Kwan. What are those Kwan's doing today? You will likely find that your root Kwan was involved in the formation of the current Taekwondo curriculum, which was adopted by the Kukkiwon from the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) back before the Kukkiwon had it's current name, when it was called by it's original name "The Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium"

So the Kukkiwon did not create much of anything, the unified Kwan's did, the KTA used the unified Kwan's creation as the KTA standard, Kukkiwon adopted it.

Where does the WTF come in? It was nothing more than a tournament committee, formed by Taekwondo team leaders from 11 nations (maybe a few more). It's purpose, to run tournaments.

There is no such thing as WTF style, or WTF curriculum, etc. The WTF never created anything.

 

[dancingalone]

Let's reiterate something I've been saying for ages that not that many people seem to get. The Olympic style guy, even competing in regional tournaments only, has fought every single guy at his weight and belt level over the course of his competition career. That means he has had full contact matches with different fighters with different strategies over and over and over again. What he's doing is fighting. The way you learn how to fight is by fighting as many different people as you can with as many different approaches as you can. If I can land a good, powerful round house kick that drops a black belt who is actively trying to launch my head into the stands and has been training for 7-8 years to do just that, what exactly changes when I want to do the same thing to an untrained thug? Rhetorical question. Nothing changes. Variables are variables and they exist in the ring too.

No, what he is doing is SPARRING by a a specific rule set which rewards kicking. Something you're not thinking about: other people spar too, albeit with other rules that likewise lead to the development of different strategies and tactics than what an Olympic TKD guy would employ. Other people work hard too and they hit hard too. The argument that an Olympic guy gets to face a lot of high caliber opposition seems intuitively true, but so does any martial artist that trains in a system that offers competitive opportunities - judo, BJJ, boxing/kickboxing, etc. The point I make here is that it's dangerous and eroneous to generalize about other people's training, and it seems almost like some are setting up a classic false comparison with the 'elite' Olympic rules TKD guy vs. Joe Strip Mall Dojang who trains about 2 hours a week if he's lucky. In that case it's no comparison at all and the difference isn't in training methodology at all - it's about training period.

As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa. Clinch, all I have to do is decide if I want to break it and get my range back or use one of the throws myself and every other WTF guy learns. Even better, I'm a sport Judo player too. Same thing. What makes you so hard to throw compared to another competitive Judoka? What makes you so hard to kick/punch compared to a competitive TKD player?

It's easy, scarily easy, to tell who hasn't trained sport TaeKwonDo.

I could likewise say it is extremely evident that you have not trained weapons to a high level. Do you seriously think an unarmed kicker no matter how skilled is not at a crippling disadvantage to a competent bo wielder? In the hands of someone competent, the staff is an extension of the person's center. He will negate the distancing advantage even a great kicker has, and if you think a kick has devastating power, you haven't seen what a blow from a hardwood staff can do from someone who can create leverage from the deceptive angles a 6 feet weapon has. And no, I don't believe a significant percentage of the Olympic TKD athletes out there have trained the staff or tonfa to a high level, much less every WTF guy as you assert. I'm aware that weapons is not a part of KKW curriculum - it would be unlikely indeed that every 'WTF guy' absent a mandate from above would devote a significant commitment of resources towards something that isn't even recognized as an official part of TKD by either the KKW or the ITF. Time is a finite resource after all. I KNOW what it takes become expert with one, and you're underestimating what real accomplishment it is to become a kobudo expert.

As for myself since you are addressing me, there is nothing that makes me so hard to throw other than I have trained extensively in the close, grappling range and I can comfortably defend, strike, connect, and control within this distance. Likewise, I have developed strong hand strikes over the years with hand conditioning and disciplined makiwara practice, but I suppose there's always someone better. The difference is I'm fully aware there are arenas that I have not trained for where it would be foolish for me to talk about how I could clean up just by showing up. I'm not sure others have the same perspective - they think being strong in one facet means the strength follows them around everywhere.

 

[dancingalone]

I agree with you 100%. I come from a karate, old school tae kwon do background, and I can tell you from experience, Kukkiwon Taekwondo is superior, in every way.

You'd better qualify that by adding 'in my opinion' otherwise you're coming dangerously close to style-bashing, something I believe is not permitted within the MT site rules.

The sentence I quoted above is an example of why you attract controversy here, almost as if by choice. A thoughtful post would have also included at the very least an outline of why think your version of TKD is superior in every way (an interesting proposition if you or anyone else could back it up with reasoned arguments).

So last time it was a big knife, now it's a staff. And you want to call my statements absurd, crazy and fool-hardy. ROFLMAO Where is the ignore button.

I'd say you are trolling to elicit a response out of others, but I actually think you're serious about everything you're writing. I don't plan to put you on ignore - you're entertaining at times even when you are very, very wrong because you can't ever admit you're wrong and you'll go through all sorts of contortions as a result.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No, what he is doing is SPARRING by a a specific rule set which rewards kicking. Something you're not thinking about: other people spar too, albeit with other rules that likewise lead to the development of different strategies and tactics than what an Olympic TKD guy would employ. Other people work hard too and they hit hard too. The argument that an Olympic guy gets to face a lot of high caliber opposition seems intuitively true, but so does any martial artist that trains in a system that offers competitive opportunities - judo, BJJ, boxing/kickboxing, etc. The point I make here is that it's dangerous and eroneous to generalize about other people's training, and it seems almost like some are setting up a classic false comparison with the 'elite' Olympic rules TKD guy vs. Joe Strip Mall Dojang who trains about 2 hours a week if he's lucky. In that case it's no comparison at all and the difference isn't in training methodology at all - it's about training period.



I could likewise say it is extremely evident that you have not trained weapons to a high level. Do you seriously think an unarmed kicker no matter how skilled is not at a crippling disadvantage to a competent bo wielder? In the hands of someone competent, the staff is an extension of the person's center. He will negate the distancing advantage even a great kicker has, and if you think a kick has devastating power, you haven't seen what a blow from a hardwood staff can do from someone who can create leverage from the deceptive angles a 6 feet weapon has. And no, I don't believe a significant percentage of the Olympic TKD athletes out there have trained the staff or tonfa to a high level, much less every WTF guy as you assert. I'm aware that weapons is not a part of KKW curriculum - it would be unlikely indeed that every 'WTF guy' absent a mandate from above would devote a significant commitment of resources towards something that isn't even recognized as an official part of TKD by either the KKW or the ITF. Time is a finite resource after all. I KNOW what it takes become expert with one, and you're underestimating what real accomplishment it is to become a kobudo expert.

As for myself since you are addressing me, there is nothing that makes me so hard to throw other than I have trained extensively in the close, grappling range and I can comfortably defend, strike, connect, and control within this distance. Likewise, I have developed strong hand strikes over the years with hand conditioning and disciplined makiwara practice, but I suppose there's always someone better. The difference is I'm fully aware there are arenas that I have not trained for where it would be foolish for me to talk about how I could clean up just by showing up. I'm not sure others have the same perspective - they think being strong in one facet means the strength follows them around everywhere.

Very well said, and obviously written by someone who has vast experience in martial arts.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I agree with you 100%. I come from a karate, old school tae kwon do background, and I can tell you from experience, Kukkiwon Taekwondo is superior, in every way. The old men who were teachers of all of our teachers made it so, they started the ball of improvement rolling, and they endorse the improved curriculum that Kukkiwon follows, and they endorse the elite modern training methods of WTF fighters. These are men in their 90's, who were grinding out Pyongahn's, in duck stances back before any of us were. They say the evolved system is better.

So some people think they are being "traditional" by not following the Kukkiwon, but in fact, they are not following their big seniors, and that is not traditional at all.

Here is something I wrote a while back and posted somewhere a while back about Olympic sparring.
----
I will also say this about sparring. Taekwondo has within it, many types of sparring. However, some people are critical the most well known type, Shihap Kyorugi, the type of Taekwondo competition found in the Olympics. But Shihap Kyorugi was invented with Self Defense in mind just as much as it was hoped to be an international sporting event. Our intelligent seniors made it both a self defense practice, and an international sporting event.

Here was there thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's

- bare fist and foot to strike the target forces the use of correct shape of technique, not a covered hand and foot which changes the technique and allows it to be sloppy.

- full force blows, as used in self defense because we must learn to deliver them as well as roll with them to survive a fight

- limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

- limited target area, making that area easier to defend and harder to successfully attack, thereby forcing the attacking techniques to a higher skill level in order to defeat the well defended target area

- allowing knockout, thus adding intense psychological pressure. This places REAL fear into the equation, and fear is the emotional obstruction to a clear mindset, where decision to action has to occur seamlessly, without hesitation. Indecision is the Grim Reaper of self defense and fear brings it forth at the worst time

The International Olympic Committee considered these factors of realism (along with other factors) and accepted Shihap Kyorugi as an Olympic event.

You say "Kukkiwon tkd is superior in every way". Geez thats a big call, not because I necessarilly agree or disagree but I cant believe anyone is self righteous enough to come to an open tkd board and make such a massive claim, that is based purely on your own opinion.Its actually laughable.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

maybe we should get back to the bouncing

 

[ETinCYQX]

No, what he is doing is SPARRING by a a specific rule set which rewards kicking. Something you're not thinking about: other people spar too, albeit with other rules that likewise lead to the development of different strategies and tactics than what an Olympic TKD guy would employ. Other people work hard too and they hit hard too. The argument that an Olympic guy gets to face a lot of high caliber opposition seems intuitively true, but so does any martial artist that trains in a system that offers competitive opportunities - judo, BJJ, boxing/kickboxing, etc. The point I make here is that it's dangerous and eroneous to generalize about other people's training, and it seems almost like some are setting up a classic false comparison with the 'elite' Olympic rules TKD guy vs. Joe Strip Mall Dojang who trains about 2 hours a week if he's lucky. In that case it's no comparison at all and the difference isn't in training methodology at all - it's about training period.

I could likewise say it is extremely evident that you have not trained weapons to a high level. Do you seriously think an unarmed kicker no matter how skilled is not at a crippling disadvantage to a competent bo wielder? In the hands of someone competent, the staff is an extension of the person's center. He will negate the distancing advantage even a great kicker has, and if you think a kick has devastating power, you haven't seen what a blow from a hardwood staff can do from someone who can create leverage from the deceptive angles a 6 feet weapon has. And no, I don't believe a significant percentage of the Olympic TKD athletes out there have trained the staff or tonfa to a high level, much less every WTF guy as you assert. I'm aware that weapons is not a part of KKW curriculum - it would be unlikely indeed that every 'WTF guy' absent a mandate from above would devote a significant commitment of resources towards something that isn't even recognized as an official part of TKD by either the KKW or the ITF. Time is a finite resource after all. I KNOW what it takes become expert with one, and you're underestimating what real accomplishment it is to become a kobudo expert.

As for myself since you are addressing me, there is nothing that makes me so hard to throw other than I have trained extensively in the close, grappling range and I can comfortably defend, strike, connect, and control within this distance. Likewise, I have developed strong hand strikes over the years with hand conditioning and disciplined makiwara practice, but I suppose there's always someone better. The difference is I'm fully aware there are arenas that I have not trained for where it would be foolish for me to talk about how I could clean up just by showing up. I'm not sure others have the same perspective - they think being strong in one facet means the strength follows them around everywhere.

"You" was generic, sir, not addressing anyone in particular.

Sparring, as those of us who train sport TKD at a high level know, is not a game. It is a fight just like a boxing match is a fight or a kickboxing match is a fight. It's easy to discount it, but it is a fight. People get good at fighting by fighting. Your point about kickboxing, jiu jitsu, Judo and boxing go back to exactly what I was talking about BTW-fighting as many different people as possible, even under a ruleset, builds good fighters.

I am not discounting non-sport TKD training, far from it. I had a traditional background myself. But I believe that a competition circuit and a unified ruleset breeds better combat athletes and therefore better fighters on the average. Compared to my pre-sport days, when I became a WTF TKDin I had an outcome to train for. I was in the dojang five days a week, eating right, running, all that stuff because I was getting ready to fight and I wanted to beat the guy across the ring from me.

What you are doing that I don't agree with is discounting me/the other WTF competitors here as players rather than fighters, and it's simply not true. A good WTF fighter can stand and trade with anyone you put in front of him and it's a benefit of sport martial arts that a lot of people miss.

As far as weapons go, well, our provincial federation adds quite a bit of stuff and I blur the lines occasionally as to what is actually WTF/KKW curriculum and what is ours. So, you can chalk that up to my mistake. For the record I don't like weapons training much, I think it's largely a waste of time for what I want to achieve, but I have and do train it. Even for self defense I don't see much use. I don't get to carry a staff or a tonfa or sais or nunchucks. Closest thing would be picking up a broom handle or something.

Funny how we get into these debates. I train in 2 sport-heavy systems and compete in both as well as teach and coach in one, and that isn't a coincidence.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

"You" was generic, sir, not addressing anyone in particular.

Sparring, as those of us who train sport TKD at a high level know, is not a game. It is a fight just like a boxing match is a fight or a kickboxing match is a fight. It's easy to discount it, but it is a fight. People get good at fighting by fighting. Your point about kickboxing, jiu jitsu, Judo and boxing go back to exactly what I was talking about BTW-fighting as many different people as possible, even under a ruleset, builds good fighters.

I am not discounting non-sport TKD training, far from it. I had a traditional background myself. But I believe that a competition circuit and a unified ruleset breeds better combat athletes and therefore better fighters on the average. Compared to my pre-sport days, when I became a WTF TKDin I had an outcome to train for. I was in the dojang five days a week, eating right, running, all that stuff because I was getting ready to fight and I wanted to beat the guy across the ring from me.

What you are doing that I don't agree with is discounting me/the other WTF competitors here as players rather than fighters, and it's simply not true. A good WTF fighter can stand and trade with anyone you put in front of him and it's a benefit of sport martial arts that a lot of people miss.

As far as weapons go, well, our provincial federation adds quite a bit of stuff and I blur the lines occasionally as to what is actually WTF/KKW curriculum and what is ours. So, you can chalk that up to my mistake. For the record I don't like weapons training much, I think it's largely a waste of time for what I want to achieve, but I have and do train it. Even for self defense I don't see much use. I don't get to carry a staff or a tonfa or sais or nunchucks. Closest thing would be picking up a broom handle or something.

Funny how we get into these debates. I train in 2 sport-heavy systems and compete in both as well as teach and coach in one, and that isn't a coincidence.

I can see where you are coming from, but my personal belief is that the more you "mix up" your ruleset the better a fighter you will become. We sometimes spar using the WTf ruleset, sometimes we spar using 'punches only', sometimes kicks only, sometimes 2 or 3 on 1, sometimes a round where you must throw a certain amount of techs. We constantly mix it up which helps to keep us on our toes and teaches us to adapt. I have the highest respect for top elite tkd sportsmen, but I do believe the ruleset is far too restrictive. Little or no punching, no kicks below the belt, no punches to the face, no taking your opponent to the ground etc etc leads to a game of 2 guys roundhouse kicking each others hogus which will inevitably lead to people saying its not 'fighting'. I dont personally have a problem with this, these fighters are awsome BUT within a VERY restrictive rule set.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That is to bad that, as you say, many would not have sparred under that rule set, the greater experience you have, the more you learn. Over the past four decades, I have been fortunate to have trained in various Karate styles and types of Taekwondo/ tae kwon do / Taekwon-do. For me, it was good to have had that experience, and then open my eyes as you call it, and realize that Kukkiwon is the genuine article, when it comes to Taekwondo. It was a natural progression. I was also fortunate, later on, after started learning Kukkiwon Taekwondo, to get involved in the WTF side of things as well.

As for other types of tae kwon do / Taekwon-do, been there, done that. To me, they are archaic and backwards. I look forward to progress, as I always have.

By the way. the Kukkiwon, and WTF are very different things.

Im curious. You say you find tkd that is not KKW "archaic and backwards", and you speak of 'natural progression' leading to a better tkd i.e KKW. We could discuss this statement all day but I will stick to just one example because I can see you are very set in your ways and are not about to take other ideas onboard. Old school tkd or archaic tkd as you would put it, had a lot bigger emphasis on punching. Can you explain to me how placing less emphasis on punching to the point of almost never seeing it in WTF sparring is natural progression toward a better art. How can less punching be seen as a good progression? there are literally hundreds of other examples but I will just stick to this one as it is one area I feel strongly about. I have seen local KKw clubs train and their kicking is amazing and they are stronly geared toward the WTf ruleset, but punching was almost non existent except for a couple of small, basic punching drills. How can this be a good progression? Considering almost every 'real' fight Ive ever seen had people both throwing punches and defending punches, how can the art evolving to a point of almost no punches be beneficial to the evolution of the art? Really, Im curious.

 

[mastercole]

You say "Kukkiwon tkd is superior in every way". Geez thats a big call, not because I necessarilly agree or disagree but I cant believe anyone is self righteous enough to come to an open tkd board and make such a massive claim, that is based purely on your own opinion.Its actually laughable.

It's my opinion, formed from my vast experience I say it to anyone and everyone who ask. I did not create Kukkiwon Taekwondo, I choose it, for exactly that reason. You don't have to like my opinion.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It's my opinion, formed from my vast experience I say it to anyone and everyone who ask. I did not create Kukkiwon Taekwondo, I choose it, for exactly that reason. You don't have to like my opinion.

I take your opinion onboard just as I do anyone else who offers me their opinion. I also take every opinion with a grain of salt. I have a friend who has done ITF tkd (among many other forms) for 20 years and he says it is the best by far. I train at an independent organisation and when I see the standard of our black belts I think our form is the best. You think KKw is the best. All valid opinions, but just that, opinions.

 

[mastercole]

Im curious. You say you find tkd that is not KKW "archaic and backwards", and you speak of 'natural progression' leading to a better tkd i.e KKW. We could discuss this statement all day but I will stick to just one example because I can see you are very set in your ways and are not about to take other ideas onboard.

I guess I should have said more, just so you know my willingness to take on other ideas.

The only way I am set in, is the way of improving my knowledge and constantly learning. The very first direct exposure I had was in 1968 taking a few Judo lessons at the YMCA, but growing up in Little Italy, boxing was big, so in 1969 I started with that and added a whole arsenal of moves to my street skills, four or five years later I ended up in Isshin Ryu/Kubudo, and from there I was completely fascinated with Asian martial arts, since that time did a lot of things like Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Shuri Ryu, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, ITF (Oh Do Kwan), fiddled around with Philippinno knife and stick fighting, some Shi-pal-ki and Hapkido, Laotian type of Muay Thai, Taekwondo JIDOKWAN. And if that is not enough to improve someone's idea of self defense, besides growing up in extreme violence, I have also carried guns, and at times knives, mace, and whatever, most everyday of my life. I am not a fanatic, if you knew me, you would have no idea about any of this.

One year ago this month, after about 10 years of training, I went to Pusan, Korea and passed the Taekkyon Instructors Training Course via physical test, written test, and thesis, this all after a month of course preparation training, making me the first American in martial arts history to do so. Just so you know I have always been open to "taking other ideas on board"

Old school tkd or archaic tkd as you would put it, had a lot bigger emphasis on punching.

Kukkiwon Taekwondo has a far greater amount of punching and hand skills in it's training curriculum than it does kicking, because Kukkiwon's curriculum is basically the same as it was when Kukkiwon adopted the curriculum from the old archaic KTA system developed by the nine (9) main Kwan (Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, etc.).

What you are probably confused about is that the Kukkiwon curriculum, while having all the curriculum from the old archaic Kwan system that unified to form the KTA, has basically 17 types of sparring methods, instead of 16 types found in the old archaic system. That 17th type of sparring, technically called Shiphap Kyorugi, or what you might call WTF Olympic sparring, might be what is confusing you.

Can you explain to me how placing less emphasis on punching to the point of almost never seeing it in WTF sparring is natural progression toward a better art. How can less punching be seen as a good progression? there are literally hundreds of other examples but I will just stick to this one as it is one area I feel strongly about.

I feel strongly about punching too. That is why most of my good fighters are excellent with their hands. Funny thing a few years back, this guy comes to the dojang and says he would spar with the other guys if he could punch to the face, I said OK and paired him with a great puncher (and kicker) but told him to just palm strike the guy. He checks, steps, side steps, and plam slaps the hell out of this guy. Slides back drops his hands, this guy is in shock, he takes a wild haymaker swing at my guy, my guy instantly counters with a spin back hook kick from hell and knocks this guy out cold as a cucumber. I was horrified, I though he might be dead. After we woke him up, and he came to, he did not realize he was knocked out and thought he had just been slapped a lot. Kind of funny back then, but also kind of stupid and dangerous.

Anyway, Shihap Kyorugi, or as you say WTF sparring, is a small, but very important piece of a many faceted Taekwondo and has improved every facet of Taekwondo, more so than any other training method.

I have seen local KKw clubs train and their kicking is amazing and they are stronly geared toward the WTf ruleset, but punching was almost non existent except for a couple of small, basic punching drills. How can this be a good progression?

I have several dojangs, and all of my students spend a lot of time kicking too. We also cycle around where they spend a lot of time using their hands. It does seem like they do more kicking, lot's of time has to be spent on kicking. They are using a gross motor tool to create a refined technique, but they learn a lot that way and learn deeper, faster about power, time, distance, will power etc. You can do 100 hand skill reps, and 100 kicking reps, and the time it takes to do the hand reps will fly by, the kicking will seem to take longer. The hand is a fine motor skill tool and can adapt more quickly, with less struggle than the leg, for most people.

WTF sparring has a specific technique, mental and spiritual purpose, and whether a coach understands that purpose, or not, can very well depend on how much his students will gain from it, or not. So we really have to get down to business and find out what exactly are we supposed to gain from WTF Sparring, and then start searching for it. If we don't know what we are searching for, we may never find it.

Considering almost every 'real' fight Ive ever seen had people both throwing punches and defending punches, how can the art evolving to a point of almost no punches be beneficial to the evolution of the art? Really, Im curious.

It gives us a special technical, mental and spiritual refinement that improves us not only as persons, but also aids in our self defense development. There is much more on this subject, to vast to post here, I could place some official documents on Flicker or something that you could read, if you truly are interested. But IMO to fully understand them, broken English translated into Korea and deep technical ideas, you would have to be training in it.

That said, IMO, no martial art, or martial arts instructor is qualified to completely teach a person about self defense. The only way to actually learn that is to live it and survive it. Not an easy task, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that, or should.

 

[mastercole]

I can see where you are coming from, but my personal belief is that the more you "mix up" your ruleset the better a fighter you will become. We sometimes spar using the WTf ruleset, sometimes we spar using 'punches only', sometimes kicks only, sometimes 2 or 3 on 1, sometimes a round where you must throw a certain amount of techs. We constantly mix it up which helps to keep us on our toes and teaches us to adapt. I have the highest respect for top elite tkd sportsmen, but I do believe the ruleset is far too restrictive. Little or no punching, no kicks below the belt, no punches to the face, no taking your opponent to the ground etc etc leads to a game of 2 guys roundhouse kicking each others hogus which will inevitably lead to people saying its not 'fighting'. I dont personally have a problem with this, these fighters are awsome BUT within a VERY restrictive rule set.

Ok, let's look at boxing. A martial art with excellent hand skills.

Take Manny Pacquiao. He seriously trains, at the most elite level, with a very restrictive set of rules. I mean come on, even Mayweather is afraid to fight him

Let's say either of us spar/fight him, and we pick the rule that you can punch anywhere we want, with no gloves on.

If Manny goes for the neck, lower back, groin and back of the head, do you think because he never trains that way, that he could not take us out that way?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I guess I should have said more, just so you know my willingness to take on other ideas.

The only way I am set in, is the way of improving my knowledge and constantly learning. The very first direct exposure I had was in 1968 taking a few Judo lessons at the YMCA, but growing up in Little Italy, boxing was big, so in 1969 I started with that and added a whole arsenal of moves to my street skills, four or five years later I ended up in Isshin Ryu/Kubudo, and from there I was completely fascinated with Asian martial arts, since that time did a lot of things like Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Shuri Ryu, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, ITF (Oh Do Kwan), fiddled around with Philippinno knife and stick fighting, some Shi-pal-ki and Hapkido, Laotian type of Muay Thai, Taekwondo JIDOKWAN. And if that is not enough to improve someone's idea of self defense, besides growing up in extreme violence, I have also carried guns, and at times knives, mace, and whatever, most everyday of my life. I am not a fanatic, if you knew me, you would have no idea about any of this.

One year ago this month, after about 10 years of training, I went to Pusan, Korea and passed the Taekkyon Instructors Training Course via physical test, written test, and thesis, this all after a month of course preparation training, making me the first American in martial arts history to do so. Just so you know I have always been open to "taking other ideas on board"



Kukkiwon Taekwondo has a far greater amount of punching and hand skills in it's training curriculum than it does kicking, because Kukkiwon's curriculum is basically the same as it was when Kukkiwon adopted the curriculum from the old archaic KTA system developed by the nine (9) main Kwan (Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, etc.).

What you are probably confused about is that the Kukkiwon curriculum, while having all the curriculum from the old archaic Kwan system that unified to form the KTA, has basically 17 types of sparring methods, instead of 16 types found in the old archaic system. That 17th type of sparring, technically called Shiphap Kyorugi, or what you might call WTF Olympic sparring, might be what is confusing you.



I feel strongly about punching too. That is why most of my good fighters are excellent with their hands. Funny thing a few years back, this guy comes to the dojang and says he would spar with the other guys if he could punch to the face, I said OK and paired him with a great puncher (and kicker) but told him to just palm strike the guy. He checks, steps, side steps, and plam slaps the hell out of this guy. Slides back drops his hands, this guy is in shock, he takes a wild haymaker swing at my guy, my guy instantly counters with a spin back hook kick from hell and knocks this guy out cold as a cucumber. I was horrified, I though he might be dead. After we woke him up, and he came to, he did not realize he was knocked out and thought he had just been slapped a lot. Kind of funny back then, but also kind of stupid and dangerous.

Anyway, Shihap Kyorugi, or as you say WTF sparring, is a small, but very important piece of a many faceted Taekwondo and has improved every facet of Taekwondo, more so than any other training method.



I have several dojangs, and all of my students spend a lot of time kicking too. We also cycle around where they spend a lot of time using their hands. It does seem like they do more kicking, lot's of time has to be spent on kicking. They are using a gross motor tool to create a refined technique, but they learn a lot that way and learn deeper, faster about power, time, distance, will power etc. You can do 100 hand skill reps, and 100 kicking reps, and the time it takes to do the hand reps will fly by, the kicking will seem to take longer. The hand is a fine motor skill tool and can adapt more quickly, with less struggle than the leg, for most people.

WTF sparring has a specific technique, mental and spiritual purpose, and whether a coach understands that purpose, or not, can very well depend on how much his students will gain from it, or not. So we really have to get down to business and find out what exactly are we supposed to gain from WTF Sparring, and then start searching for it. If we don't know what we are searching for, we may never find it.



It gives us a special technical, mental and spiritual refinement that improves us not only as persons, but also aids in our self defense development. There is much more on this subject, to vast to post here, I could place some official documents on Flicker or something that you could read, if you truly are interested. But IMO to fully understand them, broken English translated into Korea and deep technical ideas, you would have to be training in it.

That said, IMO, no martial art, or martial arts instructor is qualified to completely teach a person about self defense. The only way to actually learn that is to live it and survive it. Not an easy task, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that, or should.

It sounds to me that you are re-iterating the old saying about looking for a good instructor not necessarilly a good art. Im sure that KKw tkd taught by you would be of great benefit as it sounds as if you teach a very well rounded curriculum which encompasses many many techniques and your students would be great examples of what the KKW curriculum can achieve. Its a shame the KKW dont actually monitor what all their schools teach because I can tell you that from what Ive seen most KKw svhools are nowhere near as thorough as your school. I have met countless KKw black belts who literally cant throw a punch, they've never even been taught, they just kick and kick and kick some more. Which brings it all full cycle for me, its the school not the art. Its hard to say that KKW tkd is 'the best' of the tkds because someone may hear that, join a very average KKw club and be very let down. Ive seem some really good KKW guys, but Ive also seen very good ITF guys and independent guys. I cant really accept that one is better than the other, there are just way too many variables in my opinion.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ok, let's look at boxing. A martial art with excellent hand skills.

Take Manny Pacquiao. He seriously trains, at the most elite level, with a very restrictive set of rules. I mean come on, even Mayweather is afraid to fight him

Let's say either of us spar/fight him, and we pick the rule that you can punch anywhere we want, with no gloves on.

If Manny goes for the neck, lower back, groin and back of the head, do you think because he never trains that way, that he could not take us out that way?

I have no doubt he could. what worries me more than attack is defence. I have no doubt that a sport tkd guy can just as easily kick me below the belt and break my leg, their kicks are devastating, and even though he doesnt kick below the belt in sparring, Im sure he could adjust easily. What would worry me is how he would go 'defending' a kick below the belt as he never has to worry about that kick when he spars. Just as punching to the face, Im sure he could adjust his punching slightly and face punch me, BUT how would he go defending a punch to the face as his sparring revolves around not having to worry about that happening. What if someone ran in an rugby tackled him to the ground? again , he doesnt have to worry about that happening in the ruleset with which he spars. From my experience, attacking comes quite naturally, its defending that takes time to master and its even more difficult to master defending something that you never have to practice defending in real time against a resisting opponent. I suppose also, that Im little biased when it comes to the manny paquiao analogy because I believe puching transfers better to a real life situation, so I believe a good boxer is probably more equiped for the 'street' than a good kicker. As my instructor always says "you can be the best kicker in the world but if you cant punch you're screwed".

 

[andyjeffries]

As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa.

Sorry to disagree Ethan, but I'm a Kukki-Taekwondo/WTF guy who has never trained with staves or tonfa. I did a bit of Hapkido/Hanmudo a while back and had a go with a sword, but that certainly wasn't during my Taekwondo training.

The Kukkiwon textbook also doesn't contain any weapons training.

I'm glad you've had that experience (and I would have enjoyed it if it was an option for me) but not every other WTF guy has this.

 

[seasoned]

and you know it's bad for self defense because?

Because it is SPORT oriented.
Are we beating a dead horse or what...........