Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??

[Tez3]

I think many are confusing bouncing with jumping. When I bounce I never leave the ground and when I do leave the ground it is to simply to move forward, backwards, or on an angle. Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground. You should be using your calves to bounce with not your knees. If you calves are not burning after a good workout then you have been jumping not bouncing. You may at time have some space under your toes, again maybe a millimeter or so, but nothing more than that. And yes there is some strain on your ankles but nothing debilitating. You do more damage to the joint with the kick, the impact of the kick, and the twisting for the kick than you do with the bouncing, just my view on it.

Again though I think this is best for the light skinny guys, for the heavy weights it uses a lot of effort to get an 18 stone or more body moving and to last throughout the fight.

PS a stone is 14 pounds.

 

[ATC]

Again though I think this is best for the light skinny guys, for the heavy weights it uses a lot of effort to get an 18 stone or more body moving and to last throughout the fight.

PS a stone is 14 pounds.

That's to much math for me to do ;-)

 

[dancingalone]

Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground.

A mere mm would not be discernible on video. I wouldn't call that bouncing, vibrating maybe. The people in the video are noticeably bobbing up and down...are you saying they are not in fact leaving the ground and are just moving up and down with their knees to produce the vertical height change?

 

[Tez3]

That's to much math for me to do ;-)

I get that brain ache when watching American MMA, the weights are all in pounds. I'm used to stones and pounds but now we are metric it's kilograms, argh!

Over a certain weight though 'bouncing' isn't practicable however fit the fighters.

 

[ATC]

A mere mm would not be discernible on video. I wouldn't call that bouncing, vibrating maybe. The people in the video are noticeably bobbing up and down...are you saying they are not in fact leaving the ground and are just moving up and down with their knees to produce the vertical height change?

Think of it as alway being on your tip toes. You use your ankles and calves to to the up and down motion, as well as any forward, back, and angles. Every now and then you will have your toes come off the ground but not that much. I can get a good 4 to 5 inches of up and down movement with out leaving the ground. When moving horizontal you need some space between you and the matt so a couple of mm will be used.

I am 46 and still bounce fairly well. I have had 2 knee surguries from playing basketball and football and this bouncing does not bother my knees or ankles.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Like many things, I think it depends on why you are training. If you are training to get good at a 'sport' then bouncing is obviously the way to go, that may elite sportsmen cant be wrong. If you are training to learn to fight/defend yourself etc then there may be a different approach. Master cole would have been better using the term 'elite sportsman' not 'elite fighters'. I know when I see WTF sparring, I consider it sparring or sport, not fighting.

 

[puunui]

For Example, say You come in with a Front Leg Front Kick. If they were to Counter with... Im going to assume a Round Kick from either side; But this would also work on a Side Kick, Back Kick, Roundhouse Kick, or Front Kick. And probably a few others; Switch Legs and Crescent Kick it out of the Air.

Say you come in with a "Front Leg Front Kick"?

 

[puunui]

No, it's definitely wearing on your knees and back at the very least. Lots of little shocks, jolts, and compressions going on. It might not bother younger, fitter people, but it is surely impactful to others.

f


Maybe if you train on a hardwood or concrete floor. Most taekwondoin today train on mats. I've done literally millions of bounces in my life and my knees and back are fine. Your body is a natural spring, and bouncing gets you in touch with that. I can remember when I did not understand what the Modern Training Methods were about and when I first started experimenting with bouncing, it was tiring and I did feel like I was wasting a lot of energy with that. But I continued, and reached a point where I understood what bouncing was about. Modern competition sparring under the WTF Rules incorporates all sorts of stances, footwork and strategies. For example, "bouncing" is something that is done when outside of range as a general rule, something that you wouldn't necessarily do when inside. There is also a lot of "rooting" or using the ground to generate power. But I would say it is a dynamic rooting, rooting in movement, and not like you are planted like a tree. You can see advanced players gripping the mat, and doing all sorts of subtle things in preparation for power generation. The highest expression of Taekwondo competition techniques is the effortlessness in generating maximum speed and power, the point I believe Master Cole, ATC and others were hinting at in their posts. It is something that is difficult to explain in words on a bulletin board, and much easier to show or demonstrate in real life.

 

[Cyriacus]

Say you come in with a "Front Leg Front Kick"?

A Front Kick with the Front Leg
Optionally, Lead Leg Front Kick. Either way is Correct.

(And I know You know what I meant. Im deliberately Misinterpreting You. Because theres about Five ways I could Read that )

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A Front Kick with the Front Leg
Optionally, Lead Leg Front Kick. Either way is Correct.

(And I know You know what I meant. Im deliberately Misinterpreting You. Because theres about Five ways I could Read that )

we all know what you meant. Some people just like to stir the pot

 

[seasoned]

Bruce lee was bouncing 40 years age. It is not a new thing..............

 

[Tez3]

There should be another word to describe it, 'bouncing' sounds like something a child does!

 

[mastercole]

I never said it was a waste of time. I said that I find it to be a waste of energy. But see, everyone fights and spars differently. I get that this seriously works for alot of People. It does not, and never has worked for Me.

And its a bit interesting that You need to be an True Elite Champion to use it correctly, according to Your Reply.

I get it, so following the training methods of elite level practitioners is a waste of your energy. If you prefer to continue the use of non-elite novice methods, cool, I won't argue with that.

 

[mastercole]

Either you're playing with words or you missed the points Master Cole made. A waste is a waste, both time and energy. If you say it is one, then you are saying it is the other. I do agree that everyone fights and spars differently, but think it has not worked for you because you either have not been taught or not learned it correctly. Regarding the 'True Elite Champion', your logic is wrong. It doesn't mean that you have to be one to use it, but that you can see it very clearly with someone of that level. I bet there are many skills you have seen demonstrated that give you a real "aha" moment when you see them demonstrated by someone at a very high level. It's not that only an elite athlete can do it, but that they have polished the skill so much that you see it more clearly.

Your point is good, there is a lot to learn, and not by just watching and forming an opinion. You have to work on it, for a while to get it. It's easy to just keep doing the same old thing, it's hard work to make a change, to improve.

 

[mastercole]

I have to say that's an arrogant statement, the principle isn't hard to understand at all. It doesn't however work for everyone, the big heavyweights don't use it for fairly obvious reasons. And yes I know several 'true elite champions' in boxing, MMA, MT and full contact karate as well as kick boxing.

Form reading some of your post, I can see where you would feel that way. I think US President Harry S. Truman said it best; "I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." ~ Harry S. Truman

But please, tell us about your training with those champions, and who they are. Thanks!

 

[mastercole]

I hear this in the gym all the time "I can't do squats, because of my knees" or "I can't deadlift because of my back". when in reality it is "I can;t do .... because it's hard and it hurts" . Yes when you are out of shape and start ecercising again things our going to hurt. But in the end exerciseing helps to stengthen you muscles and stabilize your joints. I don;t think anyone is advocating jumping up and down like a manical Kangaroo. But in any sport, wheter it's Karate or baseball it helps your reaction when you are up on the balls of your feet rather than standing around flat footed.

Exactly. So when in the outside world, when some criminal decides to attack you, your default reaction is not to just stand there. Oh and if you do have the ability to move, if you are trained to move a lot, you will then have the ability to move quickly and accurately, in the proper time, to give the proper response.

 

[mastercole]

Ill just ensure the Distinction that you can Not-Bounce and still be on the Balls of Your Feet and moving Actively.

Maybe some fighters bounce all the time, non stop. Personally, I don't see much constant bouncing these days, at least not at the international level. I see that fighters make adjustments, set, move, set, step, set, adjust, check, some give lot's of motion, some a little less, it's not necessarily bouncing. But in training, they will practice a lot of bouncing around, directional, not standing in one spot. It's part of footwork training, and very important in any kind of fighting. Of course it might look like bouncing, whatever that is supposed to mean, to a novice.

 

[mastercole]

Age and weight? As long as you have not previously injured yourself, or have some medical condition, anyone at most any age can jump rope. That's a lot of "bouncing."

It boils down to [correct technique] and [correct training methods]. A person must research and find these, sometimes on their own, hopefully from a true expert. If you train correctly, you are training for health, and that will only be good for you, and not wear out your body. The human body is made to be stressed, in the right way. Stress it in the wrong way, with bad technique and incorrect training methods and it will break down.

Train smarter.

 

[mastercole]

I think many are confusing bouncing with jumping. When I bounce I never leave the ground and when I do leave the ground it is to simply to move forward, backwards, or on an angle. Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground. You should be using your calves to bounce with not your knees. If you calves are not burning after a good workout then you have been jumping not bouncing. You may at time have some space under your toes, again maybe a millimeter or so, but nothing more than that. And yes there is some strain on your ankles but nothing debilitating. You do more damage to the joint with the kick, the impact of the kick, and the twisting for the kick than you do with the bouncing, just my view on it.

I agree with most of what you wrote. I would add that the more one perfects their technique, the less wear and tear they have to worry about. A term like sport specific, while used to develop a specific action, can also be use, in the proper way, to help perfect the complete technique.

A true martial artist, like a true athlete, will research out the best methods. Glenn call's it modern training methods, and that is probably the best term, it allows for constant improvement, creating a tradition of improvement, and learning.

 

[mastercole]

Like many things, I think it depends on why you are training. If you are training to get good at a 'sport' then bouncing is obviously the way to go, that may elite sportsmen cant be wrong. If you are training to learn to fight/defend yourself etc then there may be a different approach. Master cole would have been better using the term 'elite sportsman' not 'elite fighters'. I know when I see WTF sparring, I consider it sparring or sport, not fighting.

I guess if I still attended local level WTF events, I might feel like it was just fun and games. I'm fortunate to have become accustomed to international level WTF events, so I see something very different. I think anyone would call the martial artist who compete in international WTF events "fighters", especially after they experienced training with them, and if they had the balls, sparring against them. But it seems that is not a common experience, unfortunately.