Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??

[StudentCarl]

Your point is good, there is a lot to learn, and not by just watching and forming an opinion. You have to work on it, for a while to get it. It's easy to just keep doing the same old thing, it's hard work to make a change, to improve.

Instruction makes more sense when the demonstration accompanying it is at a very high and technically sound level. I have few opportunities to attend seminars with instructors who have international experience, but I find the clarity of their instruction to be very, very valuable. Just "working on it" without that high-level feedback can make a person excellent at doing it wrong and/or totally miss the correct technique while thinking one has tapped the full potential.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I guess if I still attended local level WTF events, I might feel like it was just fun and games. I'm fortunate to have become accustomed to international level WTF events, so I see something very different. I think anyone would call the martial artist who compete in international WTF events "fighters", especially after they experienced training with them, and if they had the balls, sparring against them. But it seems that is not a common experience, unfortunately.

That school of thought works both ways. To say people "dont have the balls" is a little narrow minded. Id hate to spar an olympic wtf guy because it would be under his ruleset, he would kick the crap out of me as I just couldnt adjust to fighting under that ruleset, also they are full time athletes. I wonder if one of these elite 'fighters' would 'have the balls' to have a go outside of their usual ruleset. For example, how would aaron cook go in the ufc? He would get killed, not because he's no good, but because it is not a ruleset he is familiar with or a ruleset he has trained for. Im sure aaron would realise this and would not put himself in that position. Thats because he's smart, not because he 'doesnt have the balls' as you put it. The same can be said for these people you are saying 'dont have the balls', I dont think anyone is stupid enough to take on an elite sportsman at a game they've never played, particularly one where you can get knocked out.

 

[seasoned]

There should be another word to describe it, 'bouncing' sounds like something a child does!

Yes bouncing does sound like, "something a child does". We called it agility drill, and did it as part of our warm up. It made for strong calf muscles, and helped with endurance and jumping.

It is like skipping rope, without the rope. A variety of foot movements with broken patterns so as to confuse your opponent. By moving around in this manor your opponent never really knows when the "real attack" is coming.
You are never caught flat footed, and you create a rhythm of hand fakes with in and out body movements.
Mohamed ali was successful with a form of it, as was Bruce Lee. It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts.
But as Bill said, in so many words, if you find yourself at the end of a bouncers foot, ribs will break.

 

[Cyriacus]

I get it, so following the training methods of elite level practitioners is a waste of your energy. If you prefer to continue the use of non-elite novice methods, cool, I won't argue with that.

No, I find Bouncing to be a Waste of Energy for Me. Not the Training Methods of Elite Level Practitioners.
Besides - I can find alot of People who Agree that Basics>Complicated.

 

[dancingalone]

Maybe if you train on a hardwood or concrete floor. Most taekwondoin today train on mats.

A valid point. Certainly the surface you train on is a major factor.

I've done literally millions of bounces in my life and my knees and back are fine. Your body is a natural spring, and bouncing gets you in touch with that. I can remember when I did not understand what the Modern Training Methods were about and when I first started experimenting with bouncing, it was tiring and I did feel like I was wasting a lot of energy with that. But I continued, and reached a point where I understood what bouncing was about. Modern competition sparring under the WTF Rules incorporates all sorts of stances, footwork and strategies. For example, "bouncing" is something that is done when outside of range as a general rule, something that you wouldn't necessarily do when inside. There is also a lot of "rooting" or using the ground to generate power. But I would say it is a dynamic rooting, rooting in movement, and not like you are planted like a tree. You can see advanced players gripping the mat, and doing all sorts of subtle things in preparation for power generation. The highest expression of Taekwondo competition techniques is the effortlessness in generating maximum speed and power, the point I believe Master Cole, ATC and others were hinting at in their posts. It is something that is difficult to explain in words on a bulletin board, and much easier to show or demonstrate in real life.

Could you let me know if you actually leave the ground or is your bouncing method the same as ATC described, where the bouncing is just a series of toe/ball of foot lifts? I'm fairly convinced a bunch of the stuff we see on Youtube actually has the competitors executing mini-jumps, but I can accept that is wrong if that is the consensus given.

 

[dancingalone]

That school of thought works both ways. To say people "dont have the balls" is a little narrow minded. Id hate to spar an olympic wtf guy because it would be under his ruleset, he would kick the crap out of me as I just couldnt adjust to fighting under that ruleset, also they are full time athletes.

Yep. I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set. Staves or tonfa allowed? Or perhaps we start in a clinch first? Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.

 

[mastercole]

Instruction makes more sense when the demonstration accompanying it is at a very high and technically sound level. I have few opportunities to attend seminars with instructors who have international experience, but I find the clarity of their instruction to be very, very valuable. Just "working on it" without that high-level feedback can make a person excellent at doing it wrong and/or totally miss the correct technique while thinking one has tapped the full potential.

Certainly, you must have good instruction and guidance during this process.

 

[mastercole]

That school of thought works both ways. To say people "dont have the balls" is a little narrow minded. Id hate to spar an olympic wtf guy because it would be under his ruleset, he would kick the crap out of me as I just couldnt adjust to fighting under that ruleset, also they are full time athletes. I wonder if one of these elite 'fighters' would 'have the balls' to have a go outside of their usual ruleset. For example, how would aaron cook go in the ufc? He would get killed, not because he's no good, but because it is not a ruleset he is familiar with or a ruleset he has trained for. Im sure aaron would realise this and would not put himself in that position. Thats because he's smart, not because he 'doesnt have the balls' as you put it. The same can be said for these people you are saying 'dont have the balls', I dont think anyone is stupid enough to take on an elite sportsman at a game they've never played, particularly one where you can get knocked out.

Last time I looked, this was the Taekwondo board. And we are talking about Taekwondo, I assume. Anyway, that is interesting, you have never sparred against and elite Taekwondo fighter, but you have some special knowledge in regard to how a fight outside of Taekwondo would turn out for him? Neat.

 

[mastercole]

Yes bouncing does sound like, "something a child does". We called it agility drill, and did it as part of our warm up. It made for strong calf muscles, and helped with endurance and jumping.

It is like skipping rope, without the rope. A variety of foot movements with broken patterns so as to confuse your opponent. By moving around in this manor your opponent never really knows when the "real attack" is coming.
You are never caught flat footed, and you create a rhythm of hand fakes with in and out body movements.
Mohamed ali was successful with a form of it, as was Bruce Lee. It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts.
But as Bill said, in so many words, if you find yourself at the end of a bouncers foot, ribs will break.

Not sure what "It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts." means, please expand.

 

[mastercole]

Yep. I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set. Staves or tonfa allowed? Or perhaps we start in a clinch first? Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.

Since you would love it, how come you have never experienced it? Assuming you are a Taekwondo practitioner, on the Taekwondo board, I would think you should have had a chance over the years.

 

[Cyriacus]

Maybe some fighters bounce all the time, non stop. Personally, I don't see much constant bouncing these days, at least not at the international level. I see that fighters make adjustments, set, move, set, step, set, adjust, check, some give lot's of motion, some a little less, it's not necessarily bouncing. But in training, they will practice a lot of bouncing around, directional, not standing in one spot. It's part of footwork training, and very important in any kind of fighting. Of course it might look like bouncing, whatever that is supposed to mean, to a novice.

Mm, didnt see this one.

If Youre going to Move Around alot, it works just fine to Practice that, unto Itself.
I will reiterate, that I understand why Bouncing is used. Ive repeated a few times that I realize full well it works for People, and that this isnt some stupid "i dont understand its so hard i dont like it waah" Situation. This is Personal Choice.

I choose to not use it, because I personally do not like it, for Me, Personally.

We are free to Agree to Disagree.

 

[seasoned]

Not sure what "It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts." means, please expand.

Coming from a traditional kata based system, never once did I learn or teach a kata that had bouncing techniques in it. The bouncing referred to in the OP involves a sparring type situation, where you are trying to outwit an opponent.
It all depends on where your mindset is coming from as to whether you bounce, or your bouncing them. It seems rather elementary to have to explain this.
So to answer the OP, "good for tournament, bad for self defense".

 

[dancingalone]

Since you would love it, how come you have never experienced it? Assuming you are a Taekwondo practitioner, on the Taekwondo board, I would think you should have had a chance over the years.

My statement was hyperbole of course to highlight how absurd your statements are. It is an crazy proposition to think an unarmed kicker, no matter how 'elite' he is, is going to do much against someone well-trained with a staff. Just as it is fool-hardy to think anyone who doesn't train Olympic rules TKD is going to do well against one who does in that rule set.

As I've mentioned many times before here, we become good at what we train at. The fallacy is thinking that because someone becomes good in one arena, he then also becomes equally effective in all others as well. Yet that seems to be the conclusion you make time and time again when you compare your 'elite fighters' against other martial artists who train entirely different things than you do. Not all tae kwon do is the same by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[StudentCarl]

So to answer the OP, "good for tournament, bad for self defense".

I would say bad for defense where you are responding to an attack already in progress and thus likely already in range. I'd add that the surface you're on should also affect your movement. But in a defensive situation where you cannot escape but your attacker is not yet in range, I absolutely think movement has every bit of the advantage it gives Taekwondo athletes. It helps me obsure your reading of how far I can reach, and it hides the startup of my attack which makes me effectively faster. Done right, it also confuses you about whether you are about to kiss my hand or my foot.

 

[RobinTKD]

Not all tae kwon do is the same by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If an 'Elite' fighter wants so come and spar how we do at class, I'd gladly show him how to defend against a well placed elbow or back-fist or how to punch someone in the head properly. Just as if i sparred to their ruleset, i'm sure they'd enjoy landing lots of lovely round kicks to my face totally unguarded.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Last time I looked, this was the Taekwondo board. And we are talking about Taekwondo, I assume. Anyway, that is interesting, you have never sparred against and elite Taekwondo fighter, but you have some special knowledge in regard to how a fight outside of Taekwondo would turn out for him? Neat.

yes this is a tkd board and it may open your eyes up to the fact that not all tkdists do kkw/wtf style tkd. I have done tkd for 6 years, i dont do kkw style, in fact i couldnt even tell you how the scoring works in a sport tkd match. Many here dont do kkw tkd, so obviously many here would not have sparred under that ruleset.

 

[seasoned]

I would say bad for defense where you are responding to an attack already in progress and thus likely already in range. I'd add that the surface you're on should also affect your movement. But in a defensive situation where you cannot escape but your attacker is not yet in range, I absolutely think movement has every bit of the advantage it gives Taekwondo athletes. It helps me obsure your reading of how far I can reach, and it hides the startup of my attack which makes me effectively faster. Done right, it also confuses you about whether you are about to kiss my hand or my foot.

Agreed, but, there may be some age restrictions pertaining to us older folks, that may need to conserve some energy for first contact of course.

 

[mastercole]

My statement was hyperbole of course to highlight how absurd your statements are. It is an crazy proposition to think an unarmed kicker, no matter how 'elite' he is, is going to do much against someone well-trained with a staff. Just as it is fool-hardy to think anyone who doesn't train Olympic rules TKD is going to do well against one who does in that rule set.

As I've mentioned many times before here, we become good at what we train at. The fallacy is thinking that because someone becomes good in one arena, he then also becomes equally effective in all others as well. Yet that seems to be the conclusion you make time and time again when you compare your 'elite fighters' against other martial artists who train entirely different things than you do. Not all tae kwon do is the same by any stretch of the imagination.

So last time it was a big knife, now it's a staff. And you want to call my statements absurd, crazy and fool-hardy. ROFLMAO Where is the ignore button.

 

[mastercole]

Coming from a traditional kata based system, never once did I learn or teach a kata that had bouncing techniques in it. The bouncing referred to in the OP involves a sparring type situation, where you are trying to outwit an opponent.
It all depends on where your mindset is coming from as to whether you bounce, or your bouncing them. It seems rather elementary to have to explain this.
So to answer the OP, "good for tournament, bad for self defense".

and you know it's bad for self defense because?

 

[mastercole]

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If an 'Elite' fighter wants so come and spar how we do at class, I'd gladly show him how to defend against a well placed elbow or back-fist or how to punch someone in the head properly. Just as if i sparred to their ruleset, i'm sure they'd enjoy landing lots of lovely round kicks to my face totally unguarded.

What if those well placed elbow and backfist actually meant to hit you, with all out full force, at full speed, in an unpredictable setting during sparring, allowed to hit the face and ribs as hard as they can with no holding back? Do you practice that?