Keeping up with grades and progression

[andyjeffries]

I was talking with my assistant instructor at the weekend about his progression. He got his 3rd Dan a year ago and I was reminding him that we need to think of his future as a teacher and his 4th Dan in a couple of years (and what he needs to do to get there). I was explaining that over the next couple of years I can help him by monitoring his teaching and giving him advice, and letting him do mock gradings so I help pass on what I learnt about them (performing mock gradings while my instructors graded students). He said he's happy as a third dan and in no rush for a promotion.

To be fair, I used to feel the same as him, but recent conversations with my Grandmaster have changed my opinion. His point of view was that you should keep up with your promotions. When you are due, provided you have been training hard and are of the appropriate skill you should test. That way you are able to help others to get higher rank. Also, your general performance will be higher when you're working towards goals so promotions help keep you sharp for the next goal.

What are the opinions on here? Should you test when your time is up (assuming you've been training with that goal in mind) or are you not worried about testing when you're eligible (i.e. by the time you're feeling ready to test, you're already way time-allowed).

Do you push your students to test when their time is up (if not push, then at least have a public attitude of "they should do") or leave it until they feel ready?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Im not an instructor, but if someone is competent and has trained continually and is ready to grade, then I can se no reason why they wouldnt, unless there are financial reasons or some other reason preventing them. I do however, have the utmost respect for students who put off gradings because they themself dont feel they are ready. A guy I train with put back one of his gradings because he wasnt where he wanted to be. Our instructor told him to grade as he knew he would pass, but the student had had some time off with work and had not kept up his running and weights outside of class and he wanted to grade at his physical peak so he took an extra bit of time and trained his *** off for 6 months and graded when he felt he was ready. I thought that was commendable to set himself such high standards.

 

[andyjeffries]

I'd say 6 months is OK and could be seen as a rounding error of sorts ;-)

I also feel that when your promotor (master/grandmaster) says you are ready to test, you shouldn't say no. Doing so is a slap in the face ("you don't know what you're judging, I know better than you that I'm not read").

We have guys at our club who are first dans and have been for 5-8 years. I spent 12 years as a 3rd Dan. My instructor (not Grandmaster) has been 5th Dan for 13/14 years.

 

[oftheherd1]

Two good points of view Mr. Jeffries and Mr. McPherson. One would never want to insult their teacher, but there is something to be said for knowing your own abilities. I declined my first white belt test as I didn't feel I was sufficiently ready. That is, I wasn't where I wanted to be. I have never felt so clumbsy in my life as I did when I started taking Hapkido. In my case, I ultimately gained more respect from my young instructor and also my GM. I earned a 2nd Dan from him in Korea. Some time after I came to the USA, and was teaching a few students myself, under his auspices, he bagan visiting family in the area, and taught me to 3rd Dan level. I never got around to testing for a variety of reasons. I'm mostly OK with that. I know what I know, and so did he.

So I guess it must remain up to the individual, knowing himself and his instructor/GM. It will be interesting to see what others think.

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, though not an Instructor, I believe that all Color Belts should be given no choice in the matter.
Black Belts however, I feel, should appreciate that their Black Belt is going to REMAIN BLACK no matter what Number is next to it. Theyre already a Black Belt. From that point, its mostly Recognition.

Or, at least this is the case in most places ive seen.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

IMO, it depends on the rank, ability, and goals of the individual in question. Beyond 3rd Dan, you ARE a teacher and, as such have a much higher level of responsibilities. If you are "selfish" and do not wish to give back to your school, organization, instructor, then you better not test. We have some black belts that hold instructor ranks in our association that, IMO, should never have tested. They wish people to look up to them, but do nothing that their rank requires. "Put me on a pedestal, but don't ask me to do anything you wouldn't ask a 1st or 2nd dan to do.. ." I have a real problem with that on a personal level.

I'm not as familiar with other organizations and associations, so these responsibilities may not come with 4th dan and higher in other schools.

Also, some people develop the skill set of teaching and other responsibilities required for higher dan ranks at different paces. I think people should test when they are ready, not just when their time is up. That said, it is the responsibility of the head instructor to make sure they are doing everything that they can to groom the candidates so that they are capable of testing on the standard timeline.

 

[StudentCarl]

I see teaching and coaching as integral to my own development as well as a contribution to my school. I suppose it is different for students who pursue Taekwondo as a hobby (what my master calls 'part-timers'). I see it as my job to be ready to test when my master tells me to; I'm focused on improvement and not belt level, but I get that my master takes the longer view of developing me into an instructor. I guess it depends on the goals of the student more than anything, something that requires honest and deep reflection.

 

[Manny]

I politely refused to test twice. When I got back in 2007 the next year my sambonim wanted me to do 2nd dan examination and I excused myself telling him I wasn't ready, the next year (2009) sambonim asked me to test and I refused again, I wasn't ready, my sambo told me I was ready however I felt I wasn't.

In 2010 I saw the kids coming and several of them were going to test for 1st dan, so I did test on july 2010 afther several months of working out towards my goal, I did a very nice test something I thinkk I could not back in 2008 or 2009.

I ser my next goal to 2013 for the third dan, that's my aim that's my goal I hope to be in good shape to endure the test.

Manny

 

[puunui]

I was talking with my assistant instructor at the weekend about his progression. He got his 3rd Dan a year ago and I was reminding him that we need to think of his future as a teacher and his 4th Dan in a couple of years (and what he needs to do to get there). I was explaining that over the next couple of years I can help him by monitoring his teaching and giving him advice, and letting him do mock gradings so I help pass on what I learnt about them (performing mock gradings while my instructors graded students). He said he's happy as a third dan and in no rush for a promotion.

If your student doesn't want to be an instructor at his own club, then I wouldn't push the 4th Dan promotion. For 4th Dan and above, you need to be actively teaching and doing your own thing at your own school.

 

[Blindside]

Lets see, the downside of not testing a blackbelt when they hit their magic time in grade is the promoter loses money associated with testing and you have a more seasoned blackbelt for that grade. I am not really seeing a downside here. I am an adult, this martial arts journey is MY journey, my instructor may tell me I am ready, but I get to make the choice when to step up to that challenge. I'd rather be wowing the testing panel than scraping by.

 

[MAist25]

I tested for every rank my instructor wanted me to except for my 1st Dan. I was 17 and didnt feel like I was ready. I took an extra year to polish up my technique and just enjoy my training without having to worry about tests, tips, promotions or memorizing new forms. I just got to work on what I already knew and prepare myself for the Dan ranks. Low and behold I ended up messing up one of my poomsae on my black belt test anyway haha but hey, it happens. I definitely think it was one of the best decisions I've made as a martial artist because I was able to be patient with myself and wait until I felt I was ready. I was in no rush at all to collect belts, I just wanted to get good at what I was being taught. I would much rather be a solid brown belt than a mediocre or average 1st Dan, thats the way I feel about every rank I test for.

 

[andyjeffries]

If your student doesn't want to be an instructor at his own club, then I wouldn't push the 4th Dan promotion. For 4th Dan and above, you need to be actively teaching and doing your own thing at your own school.

For once a hypothetical that isn't (normally I start these with "assuming he did, does that change your opinion").. He DOES want to be an instructor at his own club. That is part of his motivation for wanting to be my assistant instructor (we discussed it before I started the club), that he wants his own club and being part of a club from the ground up will help him see the paperwork and processes needed more than just training at a club. He just doesn't see the need to consider a promotion to 4th Dan any time soon (i.e. not in 2 years time when he's eligible).

 

[andyjeffries]

Lets see, the downside of not testing a blackbelt when they hit their magic time in grade is the promoter loses money associated with testing

I understand your general point, but I am not likely to be charging him anything for the promotion. He can pay the Kukkiwon fee directly online when we sit down after the test.

and you have a more seasoned blackbelt for that grade. I am not really seeing a downside here. I am an adult, this martial arts journey is MY journey, my instructor may tell me I am ready, but I get to make the choice when to step up to that challenge. I'd rather be wowing the testing panel than scraping by.

(the following comes off as a bit passive-aggressive, but it's not intended that way - they are intended as just thought provoking questions that I'm interested in the answer to, in general)

I understand where you're coming from - but do you not feel you should be ready by the time you are eligible to test? If you aren't ready by that time, have you been training with the correct focus/intensity or just showing up? Also, do you not see this as a slight on your instructor - if he thinks you are ready, do you not think you are doing him a disservice by effectively saying "you don't know what you're talking about?".

I'm sure most instructors don't recommend someone the instant they are passed the pass mark for the test on a session, it's when they are comfortably performing at that level.

 

[andyjeffries]

I would much rather be a solid brown belt than a mediocre or average 1st Dan, thats the way I feel about every rank I test for.

This is the way most people feel and I can certainly understand it. But, there are realities involved in your progression. For example, you could be a solid brown belt but not be able to run your own club (which only happens at 1st Dan minimum in the UK). You could be a solid 3rd Dan, but not able to promote your own students (which only happens at 4th Dan in the UK/Kukkiwon).

I tend to think (now) more in terms of - if I don't get higher rank, I can't help my students get higher rank (which is going to be more problematic as I get older and my students are progressing and teaching others).

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It depends also on how well 'above' a pass you are looking for. We have a top points award at all our black belt gradings where 1 (or sometimes, but rarely 2) students will receive an extra certificate and medallion from our GM for an exceptional, flawless performance. I train with guys who are not just happy to pass, they want top points and will not grade until at that level. My previous instructor has received top points for all his 6 dan gradings and he will wait as long as it takes to ensure he goes well beyond 'just passing'. I think he values the personalised, hand made medallion given to him personally by our GM more than he does the actual dan certificate, and personally I can see where he is coming from. To excell to the point of standing out in a room full of 100 or more grading black belts is quite an achievment. Everybody sets themselves different goals.

 

[Blindside]

I understand where you're coming from - but do you not feel you should be ready by the time you are eligible to test? If you aren't ready by that time, have you been training with the correct focus/intensity or just showing up?

To be honest I don't see much in upper belt curriculum's that really make you a better martial artist, most of it feels like padding to elongate the system, your curriculum might be different, but did learning that last kata/poomsae/form really open up new horizons of the art or was it mostly another recombination of the same basics? Me, I wanted to focus on what I already had, get really good at that material before learning something new. So I was training, and was certainly better, but did not have new material.

Also, do you not see this as a slight on your instructor - if he thinks you are ready, do you not think you are doing him a disservice by effectively saying "you don't know what you're talking about?".

If he thought that, then he shouldn't have worn his 4th for 10 years doing exactly what I did at 2nd. We aren't really rank focused, the stripe doesn't make you better.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There is also the mental aspect of grading. Your instructor may know where you are at physically but only the student knows if they are mentally ready. If I could grade at my own class with my own instructor and familiar faces around I dont think nerves would be an issue for me. At our club black belt gradings are held in town in a big hall, with a big audience, hundreds of black belts you've never seen in your life and a panel of 7th dans (most of whom you've never met) with the GM sitting centre, and you are there for 3 hours minimum. When my name was called for my black belt grading and I walked out onto that floor it was the single most nerve racking thing Ive ever done, I was shaking, I had sweaty palms and was basically going to pieces. My instructor may tell me Im physically ready to grade but only I know when Im mentally prepared enough to enter that sort of arena. If Id been sick, or had family problems, or work problems or niggling injuries or any doubt etc there is no way Id put myself under that sort of stress. Its one thing doing form, sparring, timber breaking, self defence etc in a week to week class with friends in a comfortable environment, but pressure testing those skills is a different beast. For instance, in class there is no one I can spar that I have not sparred before, so I know exactly what to expect. At grading its a complete stranger, one grade higher whose goal is to knock you down before you knock him down. People get hurt, badly sometimes, its no place to be unless you are 100% mentally ready.

 

[andyjeffries]

My instructor may tell me Im physically ready to grade but only I know when Im mentally prepared enough to enter that sort of arena. If Id been sick, or had family problems, or work problems or niggling injuries or any doubt etc there is no way Id put myself under that sort of stress

Thank you for this, it was an aspect I hadn't considered. Not sure it changes my opinion (I'd still test when my Grandmaster says "test"), but I can see now why some people may not.

People get hurt, badly sometimes, its no place to be unless you are 100% mentally ready.

Woah! Really? I've never seen anyone get badly hurt at a dan grading. There have been odd occasions of people getting cuts from boards or sore fingers from misplaced destruction kicks (but these are rare). I'd be worried about how you train/test if there are regularly people getting hurt.

 

[andyjeffries]

To be honest I don't see much in upper belt curriculum's that really make you a better martial artist, most of it feels like padding to elongate the system, your curriculum might be different, but did learning that last kata/poomsae/form really open up new horizons of the art or was it mostly another recombination of the same basics? Me, I wanted to focus on what I already had, get really good at that material before learning something new. So I was training, and was certainly better, but did not have new material.

I'm not sure I'm following. You say there isn't much to learn and it's just padding, but then you say you want to get good at your current material before learning something new?!?

I would also say that rather than there being different curriculum levels, there are different expectations at each level which the person grows in to. For example, if you are a 1st/2nd Dan you may well take a warm-up, do some paddle drills, but you won't be teaching other 1st/2nd Dans new things. If you are a 4th Dan, you should be helping the 1st/2nd Dans with accuracy. I'd expect a 4th Dan to have a much higher level of technical accuracy than a 1st Dan. I'd expect a 4th Dan to be able to do any movement with power/precision, whereas I'll accept 1st/2nd Dans may have some weaker moves.

I'd say that with each rank the expectation of performance goes up (not necessarily being able to do more jumping/spinning kicks, they decrease, but in terms of accuracy and maturity as an instructor), by going for higher ranks you live up to those expectations, exceed them, then grade again. By not grading, the level of expectation stays the same and you don't grow.

If he thought that, then he shouldn't have worn his 4th for 10 years doing exactly what I did at 2nd. We aren't really rank focused, the stripe doesn't make you better.

Ha ha ha! I agree with your latter part and it's obviously different if your instructor isn't grading on time. I have the same situation with my current instructor (he's been his rank for ages), but my Grandmaster feels people should test roughly on time and should be ready for it then, if they aren't then what the hell have they been doing for 'n' years?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thank you for this, it was an aspect I hadn't considered. Not sure it changes my opinion (I'd still test when my Grandmaster says "test"), but I can see now why some people may not.



Woah! Really? I've never seen anyone get badly hurt at a dan grading. There have been odd occasions of people getting cuts from boards or sore fingers from misplaced destruction kicks (but these are rare). I'd be worried about how you train/test if there are regularly people getting hurt.

There's not regularly people getting badly hurt, it happens but considering the huge numbers of people grading each year it is pretty rare. This is largely because people dont grade until they know they are 100% ready to go. Our objective in grading sparring is to knock the other guy down as quickly as possible, there are no points etc. So with this type of mindset everyone goes very hard and injuries are bound to occur.If you knock the other guy down in sparring you get double points for the sparring part of your grading which can overcome a fail in one of the other requirements. Its no fun sparring a guy who just failed his timber break and knows his only way to pass is to knock you down. Actually a funny story, my old instructor had his 50th birthday party at night the day of his 6th dan grading. They paired him against one of the other 6th dans who is a good mate of his (and an absolute gun) and he got kicked with a hook kick with full impact of the heel to his jaw. That night he sat there at the party with a messed up jaw all swollen with an ice pack on it partying and drinking with his mate who'd smashed him. He really didnt want to miss his 50th birthday