Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??

[Cyriacus]

You quoted it.

Welp, all I can gather from that, is that Your Question was referring to that You knew what I was talking about, which is more of a Statement.
Ill just wait for an Elaboration

Since technically Your Question was just what I said with "'s around a section

 

[Gorilla]

In the end, it's not about the name, it's about what you learn about yourself. To me, the martial arts, and for that matter, sport, is about self discovery. You learn who you are and what you are capable of.

very true...being true to yourself is a very hard thing to do...self awareness is a gift

 

[mastercole]

Which brings it all full cycle for me, its the school not the art. Its hard to say that KKW tkd is 'the best' of the tkds because someone may hear that, join a very average KKw club and be very let down. Ive seem some really good KKW guys, but Ive also seen very good ITF guys and independent guys. I cant really accept that one is better than the other, there are just way too many variables in my opinion.

I always assume that people want to know the best path, the path that will offer them the most opportunities. That is why when someone ask me about Taekwondo, I point them in the direction of Kukkiwon Taekwondo. If I was a mediocre thinker, it would not matter, because if I thought they are going to be just mediocre, joining either one would be the same for them, residing there in mediocrity.

Because I have experience in both, the obvious limitation in the one, and I see no limit so far in the other. That is why I chose the other.

It seems there are some people here who do not have experience in both, but they appear to be posting opinions, and searching for opinions form others. Careful what they ask for, there might be an experienced person who might give them an answer, and if they don't have the same experience, they might not like that answer and state the answer is rude, self righteous, arrogant or laughable because it insulted their lack of experience.

I state my comments because it certainly appeared that people here are searching for opinions.

 

[mastercole]

I have no doubt he could. what worries me more than attack is defence. I have no doubt that a sport tkd guy can just as easily kick me below the belt and break my leg, their kicks are devastating, and even though he doesnt kick below the belt in sparring, Im sure he could adjust easily. What would worry me is how he would go 'defending' a kick below the belt as he never has to worry about that kick when he spars.

I you watch more WTF fights, at WTF sanctioned events you would know that WTF fighters get kicked below the belt all the time. The shin, the thigh, the hip, pelvis, back of the legs, the groin. It is not part of the legal striking area, so when it happens it's by total surprise, the strike is all out full force right into the groin or the legs. After years of sparring experience, WTF fighters learn to survive this by rolling with it, and countering it. Because they are agile and "bouncing' around, they are in a much better mode of operation to accomplish this.

 

[mastercole]

Just as punching to the face, Im sure he could adjust his punching slightly and face punch me, BUT how would he go defending a punch to the face as his sparring revolves around not having to worry about that happening.

WTF fighters get punched in the fast, with the bare fist, all the time. It happens during training, and it happens in during sparring. Again, even thought it is against the rules, it is bound to happen both accidentally, and intentionally. Example, in 2009 at the Korea Open, where many of the most elite WTF Olympic team members and national team members compete, I was USA team leader, standing ringside watching Canada fight Iran. That match would determine who USA fought in the final match. During the fight, Canada punches Iran in the face, knocking him out cold. Iran was taken to the hospital, Canada was disqualified, USA won the gold. That was one of dozens of face punching incidents that occurred at that event over several days. Almost all fighters were able to successfully roll with the punches and continue to fight without serious injury. Why? Because they experience it all the time, in their training, and in the ring, and they move well to be prepared to deflect and roll with such surprise attacks.

This is an example of never experiencing a training method and making guesses, like the one that WTF fighters never have to worry about getting kicked below the belt. But I guess that it is laughable and self righteous of me to point that out.

What if someone ran in an rugby tackled him to the ground? again , he doesnt have to worry about that happening in the ruleset with which he spars.

These scenarios can go anywhere. I hope you realize that the WTF fighters don't just stand there, they move all around, and in response to anything aggressive, and they can kick just as hard WHILE moving backward and sideways as in place and forward, are are extremely accurate in delivering knockout power. So what if the WTF fighter has good timing and when the rugby guy charges with his head down the WTF kicks his teeth out? Again, these scenarios can go anywhere, the best thing is to get experience at it.

From my experience, attacking comes quite naturally, its defending that takes time to master and its even more difficult to master defending something that you never have to practice defending in real time against a resisting opponent.

Do you feel that someone who does not understand the training methods and evolution of learning needed to apply the intricacies of "entire body and head movement at point of impact of full contact strikes" somehow magically understands what it takes to master defensive movement?

I suppose also, that Im little biased when it comes to the manny paquiao analogy because I believe puching transfers better to a real life situation, so I believe a good boxer is probably more equiped for the 'street' than a good kicker. As my instructor always says "you can be the best kicker in the world but if you cant punch you're screwed".

I guess he would know that to be true, if he had defeated the best kicker in the world. That being said, I think that the mass majority of persons will need to depend on their hands as a primary physical self defense tool in a real fight/self defense situation. And for most of the population, that hand weapon would be the palm, since even trained people tend to punch wrong with their bare hand. All other hand an leg technique are most likely going to be secondary.

An elite fighter, of any type, is going to use what they do best, and that can be deadly for their opponent, whether it be a kick, punch, body slam, choke, etc. Even guys who get into lots of street fights, they develop certain things that have worked well for them over the years, and some can get pretty good at it, and it's not defense oriented, these guys usually have the attitude "I can take it", because most of their opponents were not trained well and usually did not harm them to bad, so they never worry about rolling with the punches, so to speak, like an elite fighter would, so they never develop a real defense. To them, a good offense is the best defense.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I always assume that people want to know the best path, the path that will offer them the most opportunities. That is why when someone ask me about Taekwondo, I point them in the direction of Kukkiwon Taekwondo. If I was a mediocre thinker, it would not matter, because if I thought they are going to be just mediocre, joining either one would be the same for them, residing there in mediocrity.

Because I have experience in both, the obvious limitation in the one, and I see no limit so far in the other. That is why I chose the other.

It seems there are some people here who do not have experience in both, but they appear to be posting opinions, and searching for opinions form others. Careful what they ask for, there might be an experienced person who might give them an answer, and if they don't have the same experience, they might not like that answer and state the answer is rude, self righteous, arrogant or laughable because it insulted their lack of experience.

I state my comments because it certainly appeared that people here are searching for opinions.

I understand all that, but what about the very experienced guys who have done both kukkiwon and ITF tkd and say ITF is better? there are many people who say this. It is their opinion and they are entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion. But as I said earlier, they are just opinions. Ive trained with both kukkiwon and ITF guys and I personally found the ITF guys to be far more well rounded martial artists, but Im not about to say one is better than the other because there are way too many variables.

 

[mastercole]

I understand all that, but what about the very experienced guys who have done both kukkiwon and ITF tkd and say ITF is better? there are many people who say this.

Help me out here.

You trained intensely for a few years with the guys, for several hours everyday, working on sparring? Or was this just casual encounters?

Two guys you knew? Or do you know the "many" that you quote? How experienced were they inside Kukkiwon Taekwondo? that is interesting because I have been all over the place for Taekwondo, and frankly, I have never met even one single person who was very experienced in Kukkiwon Taekwondo that suddenly embraced ITF, or other forms of so-called tae kwon do. That would be very rare. Just like I don't know of "many" major league baseball players that go "eh, I've had enough of this" quit, and sign up for an old 1899 style base ball league............

I am however aware of quite a few former ITF and "tae kwon do" members who joined into the Kukkiwon style, and I personally know several of ITF's EXTREMELY high ranking Grandmasters who left the ITF style and embraced the Kukkiwon style. I can list them, by name & fame if you like. I guess they felt the same way I did.

It is their opinion and they are entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion. But as I said earlier, they are just opinions. Ive trained with both kukkiwon and ITF guys and I personally found the ITF guys to be far more well rounded martial artists, but Im not about to say one is better than the other because there are way too many variables.

Thanks for telling me I am entitled to my opinion, then I will share more of it.

When you search for training partners in any martial art, I recommend that people search out the elite, not the mediocre. Nothing wrong with mediocre folks, they are great, the salt of the earth in fact. However, you want to improve, so search for the best in what you do, then you will have an accurate picture of what you do, not a mediocre one.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Help me out here.

You trained intensely for a few years with the guys, for several hours everyday, working on sparring? Or was this just casual encounters?

Two guys you knew? Or do you know the "many" that you quote? How experienced were they inside Kukkiwon Taekwondo? that is interesting because I have been all over the place for Taekwondo, and frankly, I have never met even one single person who was very experienced in Kukkiwon Taekwondo that suddenly embraced ITF, or other forms of so-called tae kwon do. That would be very rare. Just like I don't know of "many" major league baseball players that go "eh, I've had enough of this" quit, and sign up for an old 1899 style base ball league............

I am however aware of quite a few former ITF and "tae kwon do" members who joined into the Kukkiwon style, and I personally know several of ITF's EXTREMELY high ranking Grandmasters who left the ITF style and embraced the Kukkiwon style. I can list them, by name & fame if you like. I guess they felt the same way I did.



Thanks for telling me I am entitled to my opinion, then I will share more of it.

When you search for training partners in any martial art, I recommend that people search out the elite, not the mediocre. Nothing wrong with mediocre folks, they are great, the salt of the earth in fact. However, you want to improve, so search for the best in what you do, then you will have an accurate picture of what you do, not a mediocre one.

The 2 specific examples I speak of are - a guy I know who has done tkd for 27 years, holds medium dan ranks in both kukkiwon and ITF tkd, he trained both simultaneously for years, he started in kukkiwon system initially and these days trains only in ITF. He is a close friend of my wife's and I catch up with him socially, when we disuss tkd he speaks highly of both systems but says in his opinion ITF is superior. The second example is the korean guy who lives across the road from me. He has trained both ITF and kukkiwon over a 20 year period and he also says ITF is the better system.The guys I said Ive trained with were just casual get togethers for a bit of training on the side, they were only 1st and 2nd dans. Just let me stress here that I have not posted this to try and prove one is better than the other. I am just pointing out the fact that many other experienced tkd practitioners have a different point of view to you. Again, it is just their 'opinion', it is not fact, just as your belief that the kukkiwon system is superior is also only opinion. My opinion is that no system is necessarilly better than the other. As Ive said, way too many variables to be able to say one is superior to the other, and to be honest I dont really care which is better as I dont train in either so it really doesnt affect my training either way .

 

[Gorilla]

This is an elite WTF TKD fighter in a MUY TAI match. He is a medium dan ran and has been ranked by the WTF in its top 20. He won the 2010 US OPEN in the light weight division.


ITF or WTF doesnot matter it is the skill of the fighter not the system.

 

[mastercole]

This is an elite WTF TKD fighter in a MUY TAI match. He is a medium dan ran and has been ranked by the WTF in its top 20. He won the 2010 US OPEN in the light weight division.


ITF or WTF doesnot matter it is the skill of the fighter not the system.

That certainly looks like Valdimir Sokolov from Nevada. We went to the 2009 Korea Open together. He is a well known USA WTF fighter, his coach is Master Blackburn. Vladimir is a very dedicated player, I hope that in the future we will see him medal at major WTF international events. For sure keep your eye on him.

As for ITF and WTF does not matter, I think it does, but we will never know that until droves of ITF fighters decide to challenge WTF fighters on the world stage. When that happens, I'll be ringside, video camera in hand.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That certainly looks like Valdimir Sokolov from Nevada. We went to the 2009 Korea Open together. He is a well known USA WTF fighter, his coach is Master Blackburn. Vladimir is a very dedicated player, I hope that in the future we will see him medal at major WTF international events. For sure keep your eye on him.

As for ITF and WTF does not matter, I think it does, but we will never know that until droves of ITF fighters decide to challenge WTF fighters on the world stage. When that happens, I'll be ringside, video camera in hand.

under which ruleset? Im no expert, but id imagine a wtf guy would win at olympic style sparring and the itf guy would win under his ruleset. It seems pretty obvious.

 

[Gorilla]

That certainly looks like Valdimir Sokolov from Nevada. We went to the 2009 Korea Open together. He is a well known USA WTF fighter, his coach is Master Blackburn. Vladimir is a very dedicated player, I hope that in the future we will see him medal at major WTF international events. For sure keep your eye on him.

As for ITF and WTF does not matter, I think it does, but we will never know that until droves of ITF fighters decide to challenge WTF fighters on the world stage. When that happens, I'll be ringside, video camera in hand.

Vlad is a great kid...We trained with him @ TDT for 3 years...He is focusing on kick boxing and MMA right now I would like to see him back in TKD...We trained with him about 1 month ago when the Morocan National Team was in Las Vegas..He is a great Martial Artisit

 

[Balrog]

It has become popular in the milieu in which it is used. As for anything else - a decent fighter will get the timing of a guy's bounce in less than three seconds. Then he'll hit him at the top of the bounce.

Gotta agree with this, which is why I think bouncing for the sake of bouncing is good for the calf muscles and little else. It has to be combined with good footwork where you don't let your opponent get a decent read on you.

 

[Cyriacus]

Gotta agree with this, which is why I think bouncing for the sake of bouncing is good for the calf muscles and little else. It has to be combined with good footwork where you don't let your opponent get a decent read on you.

Good for the Calf Muscles, Yes. But that doesnt mean You have to use it constantly to achieve that.

Just commenting. Dont mind Me.

 

[puunui]

It has become popular in the milieu in which it is used. As for anything else - a decent fighter will get the timing of a guy's bounce in less than three seconds. Then he'll hit him at the top of the bounce.

That assumes that you are standing within striking distance when the guy "bouncing" is at the top of his bounce. What makes you assume that, because you stand in reachable distance yourself in these types of situations?

 

[RobBnTX]

Hey thanks everyone for responding to my original post in this thread! It got way more traction than I thought it would, but know that I did find it very educational.

Rob

 

[Cyriacus]

Hey thanks everyone for responding to my original post in this thread! It got way more traction than I thought it would, but know that I did find it very educational.

Rob

Much can be Learnt, when People start bickering for 10 Pages, ultimately coming to Deep, Mea... Nope. Cant do it.
Until We Conclude Something.

 

[sopraisso]

Hey thanks everyone for responding to my original post in this thread! It got way more traction than I thought it would, but know that I did find it very educational.

Rob

Much can be Learnt, when People start bickering for 10 Pages, ultimately coming to Deep, Mea... Nope. Cant do it.
Until We Conclude Something.

Hey!
Yes and nope!
I've already learned a lot from this thread, and I mean tons of knowledge!
Knowledge many times isn't something with only black and white parts, and I'm sure I've come to a much deeper understanding of the subjects discussed, as well as I got to know about other related subjects as well!
Sometimes I think I should make a digest about all that's discussed in posts like this. And I'm still going to do, in some cases!
Thank you, dear RobBnTX, coz your question helped me, too.
And thanks everyone for sharing their knowledge again!

 

[dancingalone]

Hello, Carl. Hope you had a good holiday.

I understand what you're saying and how it can be a negative aspect, but I expect some of that in a diverse group like ours. The more someone is invested (knowledge and longevity) in a particular branch of our art, the more I hope they believe strongly in what they do...and sometimes it comes out 'loud and proud'.

Perhaps. I submit there is a difference between being an advocate of your own training methods and being negative of others. We all know there are many different shapes and colors of TKD at this point. I don't believe there is a single best TKD. It depends on purpose, goals, and personal fit.

It's also interesting that every senior member I've been able to identify here consistently says that he/she continues to seek improvement without boundaries; they look for effective technique everywhere and work to improve it. I think that's very cool. The more I learn the more I'm coming to believe that "traditional Taekwondo" is not a snapshot of a moment in time but a commitment to refining and improving technique. Taking what little I know (all 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand) of the pioneers and my seniors, that's what they were about.

Process improvement also appears in a variety of guises. Some may look for it in a competition model. Still others delve back into the Okinawan and Chinese roots to gain meaning and technical improvement. It can come from a large top-down organizational approach or it can come through individual islands of dedicated practitioners striving to grow. My point? Again, there is not one way to do anything correctly.

I bet most all of us will shamelessly test and find use for technical improvements. In the end it's not about the name, it's about what I can learn from you and make my own. I do think Olympic style sparring has fueled a number of useful technical advances that are useful beyond scoring points in the ring. Studying Taekwondo for 2 years around 1980 and then returning 30 years later, I have two clear experiences to compare.

I don't disagree with this.

 

[StudentCarl]

Hello, Carl. Hope you had a good holiday.

Thanks for your kind wishes and thoughtful reply. I hope yours was good as well.

Perhaps. I submit there is a difference between being an advocate of your own training methods and being negative of others. We all know there are many different shapes and colors of TKD at this point. I don't believe there is a single best TKD. It depends on purpose, goals, and personal fit.

I agree with you that there is not a single best TKD and for the same reason you mention. Regarding advocacy and negativity, I agree but am more tolerant of that because of this medium. 1) There's a big diversity of background and level of knowledge on this forum. We have very junior people who talk like they know more than they do (I'm in that group) and don't always mention the limits of their experience. We have what I believe are senior people who speak more forcefully than I would, but I can't separate what is personality from technically-based belief unless they explain, including what area of TKD they have great experience in. 2) Many express their ideas poorly or incompletely in writing, and discussions frequently get sidetracked chasing poorly worded comments, missing information, and/or personal jabs. 3) It's not obvious sometimes why people are here. I'm here in earnest as a junior with a lot to learn. While I think that's more common than not, I see too many posts that seem pretty flip...the range of courtesy here is as wide as that seen at some tournaments (unfortunately). I take it all with a grain (or 3) of salt, and try to sort out the useful. Maybe I'll get less tolerant with time, but for now I try to stick to the technical discussions and avoid the personality garbage.

Process improvement also appears in a variety of guises. Some may look for it in a competition model. Still others delve back into the Okinawan and Chinese roots to gain meaning and technical improvement. It can come from a large top-down organizational approach or it can come through individual islands of dedicated practitioners striving to grow. My point? Again, there is not one way to do anything correctly.

I agree in general with your sentiment about there being many paths to improvement. I'm interested in all of them, so perhaps I ignore those who are more closed-minded. I think the whole "mine's better than yours" discussion is a waste of space. However, I think it's a stretch to say there's not one way to do anything correctly. There can be more and less effective depending on one's goals. Looking at this thread: I think there's been some good discussion of the definition and pros and cons of movement in TKD sparring, but some wasted time squabbling. There have been some pretty clear comments saying 'for this purpose it accomplishes that', and some technical description that would help the uneducated understand it better. That's the value of the discussion for me.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
Carl