Bin Laden is dead

Discussion in 'The Study' started by Twin Fist, May 1, 2011.

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  1. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    America doesn't have to accept foreigners coming here and kidnapping people, we just have to catch them.
     
  2. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Well, since the ends justify the means, we should use any means possible then.
    Including secret prisons, disappearing people, torture, rape, intimidation, maybe even killing their puppies or removing their childrens fingers and toes with olive forks.
    As long as it's done by one of our 'partners', in 'sekret', we can *wink* *wink* at the information, then call in a rocket strike. Just have to hope we hit the bad guys, and not yet another childrens birthday party, right?

    Because, we should do whatever it takes, break whatever laws, violate whatever things that make us different than our enemies, right?

    If that's America, then please, here is my citizenship, you can shove it. Just give me a couple days to pack and head to Canada where they still have a rule of law in effect.
     
  3. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    The reasoning above that KSM didn't give up info. because of waterboarding is like the cop saying the criminal stopped beating the victim when I asked him to, of course, I did have my service revolver pointed at his chest at the same time, but he only reacted to my polite request to stop.
     
  4. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    I don't seem to have said do whatever it takes, I did say I have no problem with waterboarding. Also, I would give the "go" order on the raid. Would you?
     
  5. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    Hmmmm, canada, do you really want to turn over their rock and see what crawls out from under it.
     
  6. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    the helicopters are ready to leave Mr. President. "go," or "no go?"
     
  7. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    First, your question is overly simplistic.
    Act on illegal information? It depends.
    Since the majority of the USEFUL information in this situation was collected by Legal means (and not through the illegal torture you want to justify) yes.

    Break international law? It depends.
    Would I have given the order to send in the strike team? Given the limited information I have, probably.

    You confuse my disagreement with the means with disagreement with the end.
    No disagreement in the ending, just some of the getting there.

    But if you were spying on a neighbor (illegal) and heard a plan to rob the bank, you should still report it, and the cops act on it, despite the illegal nature of the information gathering. It doesn't excuse it, but wasting good intel is also stupid, and makes the illegal act meaningless.

    This is why I have no problem with the magic clot powder our troops use, which originated in unethical NAZI experiments in WW2.

    So, if our SEAL team had been intercepted by the Pakistani's, you're ok with them being treated as hostile? A US soldier captured by a foriegn power is of course to be treated under international law and treaty. But maybe that government thinks our guys are 'unlawful combatants' and should enjoy a little 'enhanced interrogation' too. You're ok with that? If the international community decides that the US acted illegally here, should we turn our boys over for trial and punishment?
     
  8. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Canada's less scared of gays and **** than the US. My only complaint with Canada is it's cold much of the time there, keeping said **** covered.
     
  9. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    They are in uniforms and part of a national military force. They are covered by Geneva, of course, can you name one country other than our allies like Britain or France, canada, who have ever observed the geneva conventions in regards to our troops. The socialists in germany, italy, Japan, vietnam, and korea, iraq, and just about any other nation never adhere to the conventions. We still should for actual P.O.W.s but not unlawful enemy combatants, they should be treated humanely, but they should be exposed to harsh interrogation techniques, not torture, if there is a threat to innocent life.

    It is kind of funny when some people say that we need to treat prisoners according to the conventions because we want our guys treated according to the conventions. I agree that we need to treat p.o.w.s according to the conventions, but again, no matter how we treat their pow's they never, ever treat our guys the way they are supposed to, so the "do it so they do it," rationale is funny, cause it doesn't matter to the bad guys.
     
  10. Edmund BlackAdder

    Edmund BlackAdder <B>Rabid Wolverine</B>

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    Melchett (very drunk): "You twist and turn like a ... twisty-turny thing. I say you are a weedy pigeon and you can call me Susan if it isn't so. "
     
  11. billc

    billc Grandmaster

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    I have heard of the Black adder series but never saw more than a snippet from one episode. Is it really good, and does net flix have it?
     
  12. CanuckMA

    CanuckMA Master of Arts

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    Whether the op violated international is dependent on whether Pakistan gave approval or not. And we may never know for sure.
     
  13. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Yup. Streaming and dvd it looks like.
     
  14. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Pretty much. There's the public complaint, but is it legit or just for show. That 'plausible deniability' thing intended to hopefully keep a few car bombs from detonating there.
     
  15. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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  16. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Lest anyone think I'm sorry to see Osama go....nope.

    I question some legal aspects of the matter, but he and anyone else engaged in terrorist acts, chose their own exits long ago. I won't celebrate, but...I don't mourn him either.

    I also wouldn't mind access to his credit card for an hour.
     
  17. Blade96

    Blade96 Senior Master

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    I'd say, having survived two near drownings myself in my life, that getting water poured over your face so that you feel like you're gonna drown, cause thats what waterboarding does, would cause psychological anguish, wouldnt you?

    and naw tez i don't believe in saying Oh billcihak makes me wanna vomit. Sure he has some unusual beliefs to say the least. :p but he's a nice guy i find him amusing, and I'd oppose him like i'd say Voting for him, not a good idea :) if he was in a position as i said to change policies, like some of my good friends in university were the most conservative catholics i have ever met. They were involved in student politics, but not in a position to change laws :) but they also were nice to me so meh.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2011
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    It's naive to think that because someone is nice to you they therefore must be nice people. On the news the other day a small Pakistani child was interviewed about his going to the house where Bin Laden was killed, he said they were nice people in there they gave him two rabbits.
    Whether you believe he wants to make me throw up is up to you, I'm not lying, he does. My family have been on the suffering end of such 'conservative'' politics before, he is in the position to change politics, it only takes the rest of us to do nothing for 'his' politicains to take over, ignoring it, laughing it off is dangerous. Not to mention he can be very insutling to those he considrs 'lefties', he's accused 'lefties' of murdrs, violence, ruining the world etc and has decided who on this site is a 'leftie' and who isn't going only by his standards. I don't believe stirring, trolling and twisting peoples words is indicative of a 'nice' person more of someone out to make mischief.
     
  19. Blade96

    Blade96 Senior Master

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    Oh I know that. The Catholics I spoke about were very nice to me, but if they ever got into power and authority they would be very dangerous. I also don't agree with twisting words. But i wasnt inclined to criticize somebody because they believed hitler was a socialist.

    Besides, if he got banned who else am i gonna tease about closet socialism? :p
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thin edge of the wedge there. If people believe Hitler was a socialist how can they recognse the dangers of fascism?123
     
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