Belt Rank Progress

[lklawson]

As I said previously, I do not care for the idea of testing for MA grades the way that you test for technical certifications. In a martial art training environment, it simply isn't productive in my opinion.

Honestly, why not? As I wrote earlier, both are just physical skills. Heck, there are some "technical training" courses where you spend class and "hands on" time learning the material at exactly the same rate and time as everyone else in the class, then at the end you take the test whether or not you or the instructor think your "ready." There's a local welding school that uses this methodology, ims.

It's just as valid.

The point of the "test" is to ensure that the person can demonstrate working skills to the level of expectation of the test. The point of the "certification" is merely to prove that a person passed the test, and therefore is tangible proof that the person demonstrated the minimum skill level required without having to "prove" it over and over again for each potential client/employer/student who wants to benefit from the certificate holder's skills. The point of the class is to impart those minimum level of skills and prepare the student for the test.

Once we boil it down to these essentials, it is clear that there are many methods which will achieve them and the three most common are:

• Student decides when he wants to test
• Teacher decides when the student will test
• Students test after a predetermined period regardless of the student or teacher's opinion on student readiness

Obviously, there are hybrids of each, but those are the basics and they've all been used to pass on and certify physical skills in students.

Martial Arts is just a physical skill. It's not somehow special and different from other physical skills like welding or carpentry because it's "martial arts."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Part of maturation is accepting the changes.

Part of the maturation process is learning to override basic instincts with well thought out logic and wisdom. It's natural, literally human nature and instinct, to wrap yourself up in identities in this way. But so is being selfish or obsessed with sex. It's just that some things are harder to mature about. Sometimes this is because our culture doesn't recognize it as a necessity to mature over. Society recognizes that children have to learn to suppress their selfishness and so those lessons are usually trained in and reinforced through primary school. Society recognizes that giving total control to carnal desires is damaging to others and so we're taught not to rape and other important lessons, usually by the time we're young adults. But our society has difficulty recognizing that we suffer if we constantly allow identities to be completely subsumed into some larger context. In fact, society actively fights that. Political parties, for instance, gain more power with members who unquestioningly "toe the party line" because that's their team.

Yes, our culture is a little bit schizophrenic. On the one hand, we teach people how to overcome "base instinct" for personal and social benefit. On the other hand, we manipulate "base instinct" to gain power and influence (and get BJ's in the Oval Office).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MJS]

HVAC technicians, mechanics, etc., are constantly recertifying and keeping their skills current. Yes, they take classes, or they learn the material on their own, but they don't need some special permission to take the test. If they don't know the material, they don't pass and thus don't receive the certification. Teens looking to get their license will face different requirements in different states, but once they've met whatever preparatory requirements are required, they may take the test at any time, no special permission needed. And if they're unable to pass, they don't receive the license.

So the end result is the same; not enough knowledge or skill, no certification.

And even with certifications, there's always a possibility that the technician, programmer, mechanic, doctor, laywer, or black belt doesn't know what they're doing. While certifications are an indicator, they don't guarantee that you know what your doing; only that you passed the required test. Which is why you have some shops that are notorious for screwing up your car.

Ok, so using this logic, it would be possible for someone in the martial arts, to take a belt test every month, correct? If the student did all of the material correctly, they could realistically take and pass each test, therefore, getting their black belt in a years time, no? If that is in fact true, do you feel that we should/could also apply that to education? Rather than 12yrs of school, you get study your butt off, test and do it faster than 12yrs? If this is/was possible, what're your thoughts on it?

I don't disagree. But I'm talking about testing practices. Let's face it; outside of the martial arts, you don't sit around waiting for your teacher to tell you that you can test. Courses run a set amount of time and you test at the end of the course. If you don't pass, you retest.

By contrast, in the martial arts, the notion of a set amount of time to test to blackbelt is viewed as some kind of heresy. This is further complicated by the element of profit that is often a part of gradings.

As I said previously, I do not care for the idea of testing for MA grades the way that you test for technical certifications. In a martial art training environment, it simply isn't productive in my opinion. But I certainly wouldn't wonder about it if another school chooses to grade this way. As I said, it is a fairly common method of testing outside of the martial arts.

This is probably the #1 reason why I could care less about the ranking system. When I'm told to test, I'll test. I'm more interested in learning and gaining a deeper understanding of what I already know, and making it better. That, to me, is 10 times more valuable than stressing over when I might get a new belt.

See my response to Photonguy on this.

Ok.

 

[lklawson]

Ok, so using this logic, it would be possible for someone in the martial arts, to take a belt test every month, correct? If the student did all of the material correctly, they could realistically take and pass each test, therefore, getting their black belt in a years time, no?

Sure. Martial arts aren't "special." They're just physical skills. If the student can demonstrate the physical skills, what is the point of withholding the official recognition that he has those physical skills.

If that is in fact true, do you feel that we should/could also apply that to education? Rather than 12yrs of school, you get study your butt off, test and do it faster than 12yrs? If this is/was possible, what're your thoughts on it?

Students skip grades all the time. I went to U. with a 16 year old kid because he was good enough to learn all the material and "test out" of 2 or 3 grades.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok, so using this logic, it would be possible for someone in the martial arts, to take a belt test every month, correct?

They already do in some schools.

If the student did all of the material correctly, they could realistically take and pass each test, therefore, getting their black belt in a years time, no?

Yes. Which is the norm in Korea as I understand it.

But lets take a look at how that might work with a more western model with a belt serving as your certificate.
I'll use hapkido for this example.

As a prerequisite for testing for black belt, you must be certifed the following categories:

• Hand techniques (get a white belt)
• kicking (get a yellow belt)
• grappling (get a green belt)
• ground fighting (get a blue belt)

• knife defense (get a red belt)

With those prerequisites met, a student could then test for a collective certification and receive her black belt. Which would be a prerequisite for learning the following:

• stick/handheld object defense
• gun defense
• defense with a cane
• defense with a belt
• sword
• staff

You could also solve the time in grade dilema by requireing minimum number of study hours with each certification.

If that is in fact true, do you feel that we should/could also apply that to education? Rather than 12yrs of school, you get study your butt off, test and do it faster than 12yrs? If this is/was possible, what're your thoughts on it?

That would assume that all of the material you would need is in the textbook you're supplied, that one's grade is only dependent upon tests, and that there is no minimum study hours required.

This is probably the #1 reason why I could care less about the ranking system.

No argument there. So long as a school or art is internally consistent in how it implements the system, I do not care about it either.

When I'm told to test, I'll test. I'm more interested in learning and gaining a deeper understanding of what I already know, and making it better. That, to me, is 10 times more valuable than stressing over when I might get a new belt.

Stressing over when you'll get a belt reflects a lack of maturity. Which is one of the reasons for aiming arts at children and proliferation of belts. Kids (I include college age in this) stress over things like merit badges, ribbons, and trophies. Kids also are inherently aware of who has what color and where they are in the pecking order and who is in competition with whom. Thus they are more anxious to get to that next belt.

Once people hit their late twenties to early thirties, they usually (though by no means always) tend to be less concerned with such things and train simply to train and to improve themselves and deepen their knowledge. People who have business goals that they perceive as being dependent upon rank, however, can be just as belt driven as the eight year olds.

Ok.

I hope that I didn't come across as being short with you in my reply. I was running out of time before an engagement and realized that it was on the previous page.

 

[MJS]

Sure. Martial arts aren't "special." They're just physical skills. If the student can demonstrate the physical skills, what is the point of withholding the official recognition that he has those physical skills.

Perhaps I should have included understanding it as well. I've seen lots of people demo the material, but when it came to actually applying it under some pressure, most failed.

Students skip grades all the time. I went to U. with a 16 year old kid because he was good enough to learn all the material and "test out" of 2 or 3 grades.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I have no doubt that there are many above average people. However, I'd be willing to bet that the majority would not fall into that category.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Honestly, why not? As I wrote earlier, both are just physical skills. Heck, there are some "technical training" courses where you spend class and "hands on" time learning the material at exactly the same rate and time as everyone else in the class, then at the end you take the test whether or not you or the instructor think your "ready." There's a local welding school that uses this methodology, ims.

It's just as valid.

The point of the "test" is to ensure that the person can demonstrate working skills to the level of expectation of the test. The point of the "certification" is merely to prove that a person passed the test, and therefore is tangible proof that the person demonstrated the minimum skill level required without having to "prove" it over and over again for each potential client/employer/student who wants to benefit from the certificate holder's skills. The point of the class is to impart those minimum level of skills and prepare the student for the test.

Once we boil it down to these essentials, it is clear that there are many methods which will achieve them and the three most common are:

• Student decides when he wants to test
• Teacher decides when the student will test
• Students test after a predetermined period regardless of the student or teacher's opinion on student readiness

Obviously, there are hybrids of each, but those are the basics and they've all been used to pass on and certify physical skills in students.

Martial Arts is just a physical skill. It's not somehow special and different from other physical skills like welding or carpentry because it's "martial arts."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Firstly, I don't consider it less valid.

Secondly, being honest, it probably has to do with what I am personally used to. When you get down to it, that's what most all of the rank and testing debates boil down to: arguing that what 'I'm used to is better than what you're used to.' Then, 'Oh, you do it the same way, well, what we're used to is better than what he or she is used to.' When in reality, obvious abuses not withstanding, it really is a matter of preferences.

Personally, I prefer the model where the instructor is working with the student and simply teaching them more advanced material as they show proficiency in previous material, no test required. If I weren't teaching an established Japanese art, I wouldn't even use the kyu/dan system and would use ranks more for administrative purposes.

I rather like the scholar/free-scholar structure, wherein a scholar is simply learning the skills and a free scholar is able to leave and learn from other masters, with provost and master being titles that only apply to studio owners and advanced teachers. Simple and descriptive.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Perhaps I should have included understanding it as well. I've seen lots of people demo the material, but when it came to actually applying it under some pressure, most failed.

I agree. There is no reason that this couldn't be a requirment for certification.

 

[MJS]

They already do in some schools.

I assume these are quality schools, not mcdojos?

Yes. Which is the norm in Korea as I understand it.

But lets take a look at how that might work with a more western model with a belt serving as your certificate.
I'll use hapkido for this example.

As a prerequisite for testing for black belt, you must be certifed the following categories:

• Hand techniques (get a white belt)
• kicking (get a yellow belt)
• grappling (get a green belt)
• ground fighting (get a blue belt)

• knife defense (get a red belt)

With those prerequisites met, a student could then test for a collective certification and receive her black belt. Which would be a prerequisite for learning the following:

• stick/handheld object defense
• gun defense
• defense with a cane
• defense with a belt
• sword
• staff

You could also solve the time in grade dilema by requireing minimum number of study hours with each certification.

Of course, it's probably safe to assume that in some cases, the students tend to literally eat, breath, sleep,training a heck of a lot more in certain countries, compared to others.

That would assume that all of the material you would need is in the textbook you're supplied, that one's grade is only dependent upon tests, and that there is no minimum study hours required.

Personally, I think hours spent in the dojo is key. You spend X number of hours depending on the belt level.

No argument there. So long as a school or art is internally consistent in how it implements the system, I do not care about it either.

Ok.

Stressing over when you'll get a belt reflects a lack of maturity. Which is one of the reasons for aiming arts at children and proliferation of belts. Kids (I include college age in this) stress over things like merit badges, ribbons, and trophies. Kids also are inherently aware of who has what color and where they are in the pecking order and who is in competition with whom. Thus they are more anxious to get to that next belt.

Once people hit their late twenties to early thirties, they usually (though by no means always) tend to be less concerned with such things and train simply to train and to improve themselves and deepen their knowledge. People who have business goals that they perceive as being dependent upon rank, however, can be just as belt driven as the eight year olds.

Agreed, and this is probably the main reason why I'm not fond of kids in the arts, unless the program is structured right. Meaning, don't run the kids program like a mcdojo.

I hope that I didn't come across as being short with you in my reply. I was running out of time before an engagement and realized that it was on the previous page.

Nope, didn't think that at all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I assume these are quality schools, not mcdojos?

Most of the schools that I hear about where this is done are McDojos. I have seen it in schools first hand, but I would not call any of them quality at this point in time. One school is one that had been a quality school at one time, but no longer was. They weren't doing it when the school's reputation was better.

 

[lklawson]

Perhaps I should have included understanding it as well. I've seen lots of people demo the material, but when it came to actually applying it under some pressure, most failed.

Isn't one of the points of the test is to force the student to prove they "understand" the physical skill and to be able to "apply it under some pressure?"

I have no doubt that there are many above average people. However, I'd be willing to bet that the majority would not fall into that category.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but, um... so? So what if only the "above average" or unusual person could go in and nail one test right after another until they hit BB (or whatever arbitrary mark we set)? Maybe he's an experienced Taekwondo stylist and is "testing out" in Tae Kwon Do (see what I did there? )? Maybe he's yudansha in Aikikai and is trying to test out in USJA's Aikido track (which I think, technically, has a minimum time in grade requirement, but you get the idea).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Firstly, I don't consider it less valid.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Secondly, being honest, it probably has to do with what I am personally used to. When you get down to it, that's what most all of the rank and testing debates boil down to: arguing that what 'I'm used to is better than what you're used to.' Then, 'Oh, you do it the same way, well, what we're used to is better than what he or she is used to.' When in reality, obvious abuses not withstanding, it really is a matter of preferences.

I suspect you're right.

Personally, I prefer the model where the instructor is working with the student and simply teaching them more advanced material as they show proficiency in previous material, no test required. If I weren't teaching an established Japanese art, I wouldn't even use the kyu/dan system and would use ranks more for administrative purposes.

When I teach Judo, I use the USJA requirements because I'm part of their organization. When I teach Bowie Knife, I use a small system of nothing, Bronze, Silver, Gold that I've developed, for various reasons. When I teach other WMA, like Classic Pugilism, I don't use any "ranks" at all (mostly because, in boxing, the "rank" was always in the ring).

I rather like the scholar/free-scholar structure, wherein a scholar is simply learning the skills and a free scholar is able to leave and learn from other masters, with provost and master being titles that only apply to studio owners and advanced teachers. Simple and descriptive.

I agree. Maybe sometimes a little too simple, but that's one reason why they used to have inter-school competitions and feuds and why instructors would frequently challenge each other: to establish a more nuanced "standing" among the general ranks.

When you get right down to it, there's no perfect method.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I assume these are quality schools, not mcdojos?

Kinda depends on your definition of McDojo. As you can tell from the McDojo thread, some people's definition is more of a business model and concede that said business model can have both quality instruction (and well trained students) and still be a McDojo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MJS]

Isn't one of the points of the test is to force the student to prove they "understand" the physical skill and to be able to "apply it under some pressure?"

Well, you'd think so, however, I've seen some that left me to wonder.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but, um... so? So what if only the "above average" or unusual person could go in and nail one test right after another until they hit BB (or whatever arbitrary mark we set)? Maybe he's an experienced Taekwondo stylist and is "testing out" in Tae Kwon Do (see what I did there? )? Maybe he's yudansha in Aikikai and is trying to test out in USJA's Aikido track (which I think, technically, has a minimum time in grade requirement, but you get the idea).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

No offense taken. My point was simply that some kids would be able to test every month and actually look sharp and worthy of the rank, while the majority probably would not, therefore, IMO, it would defeat the purpose of letting them test monthly. Unless the person in question was a complete superstar, I'd run, not walk, away, while laughing, at someone who got to BB in a year, just as I would if I saw a 12yr old 2nd or 3rd degree BB.

 

[lklawson]

No offense taken. My point was simply that some kids would be able to test every month and actually look sharp and worthy of the rank, while the majority probably would not, therefore, IMO, it would defeat the purpose of letting them test monthly. Unless the person in question was a complete superstar, I'd run, not walk, away, while laughing, at someone who got to BB in a year, just as I would if I saw a 12yr old 2nd or 3rd degree BB.

[channeling the ghost of Any Rand] So why penalize the few exceptional people for the mediocrity of the majority?

<ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Balrog]

No offense taken. My point was simply that some kids would be able to test every month and actually look sharp and worthy of the rank, while the majority probably would not, therefore, IMO, it would defeat the purpose of letting them test monthly. Unless the person in question was a complete superstar, I'd run, not walk, away, while laughing, at someone who got to BB in a year, just as I would if I saw a 12yr old 2nd or 3rd degree BB.

The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training. Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing. But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.

It's like baking a cake. If the recipe says mix up the ingredients, then put in an oven at 225 degrees for two hours, what would be the result of turning the heat up to 450 but only leaving the cake in for one hour? You'll wind up with something that might look okay on the outside, but is still raw and unfinished on the inside.

My $0.02 worth.....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training. Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing. But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.

Of course, then you have to quantify what the mental aspect is. Is is academic? Is it an understanding of philosophy? Is it loyalty? Or something nebulous?

 

[MJS]

[channeling the ghost of Any Rand] So why penalize the few exceptional people for the mediocrity of the majority?

<ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Despite being in the 'superstar' category, IMO, I'd still say that good judgement should be used. Would you want to train under a 12yr old 5th dan? By the time they're 20, they could potentially be a GM. Personally, I'd rather coach them on finer, or advanced principles, rather than award them with a higher rank. By doing that, you're still giving them something, still making them better, still giving them a goal, rather than make that goal, another stripe.

One thing that always makes me wonder....if we look at an art like BJJ, where the average time for BB, is close to 10yrs, its rare, if ever at all, do we see all the complaining about rank, like we do in many other arts. It would seem that the mentality there, is to get better and not worry about rank. Too bad that can't be the same line of thinking with many other arts out there.

 

[MJS]

The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training. Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing. But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.

It's like baking a cake. If the recipe says mix up the ingredients, then put in an oven at 225 degrees for two hours, what would be the result of turning the heat up to 450 but only leaving the cake in for one hour? You'll wind up with something that might look okay on the outside, but is still raw and unfinished on the inside.

My $0.02 worth.....

Well, that's how I feel. IMHO, it seems nowadays, the higher value is on the color of the belt around your waist, rather than actually knowing, understanding and being able to perform the material, on someone, to a high standard. Seeing a 12yr old 3rd dan, is akin to seeing someone with 6 7th or 8th dan black belts. Might not seem odd to some, but I would certainly question that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I read it. I have to ask if your use of the phrase "ruined your life" is hyperbole or literal.

If a self imposed goal of this nature truly came close to ruining your life, then it isn't the missing of the goal within a time limit that nearly ruined your life but an unrealistic amount of weight being placed on that goal.

If your identity (speaking of the general you, not you specifically) is invested in something outside of yourself (and this is a fairly common thing), then it will be tied to the waxing and waning of whatever you've invested it in.

This goes back to a comment that I made much earlier in this thread about confusing external symbols and badges of achievement with achievement itself. Acquiring proficiency in technique is an achievement. A black belt is just a piece of cloth that represents that achievement. Yes, it is nice, but you've still made the achievement whether or not you have the belt.

Thank you for sharing the story. I appreciate that you did so.

Well, knowing you made the achievement of black belt, at least knowing you made it by your sensei's standards does depend on obtaining the rank itself. As you said a black belt is just a piece of cloth and anybody can buy one for about $5-$10 but to obtain the actual rank of black belt and to obtain it by the standards set forth by a sensei that you put your faith in and put forth the time and effort to train under that sensei is something else. Looking back, I believe I certainly could've made the rank of black belt within my self imposed time limit of doing it before I turned 20 but the reason I didn't was because I didn't have the proper information. I didn't have the proper information because I didn't talk to my sensei about it. To reach any kind of goal, whether it be a black belt, an eagle badge in boyscouts, an A in a class, you name it, requires that you have the proper information of what's needed to reach that goal. To get a black belt you need the proper information of what your sensei requires to get it, and that includes information about whether or not you need to be told you can take the black belt test or if you can sign up for it at your own discretion. People talk about the importance of patience but the fact of the matter is all the patience in the world wont get you to your goal if you don't have the proper information and getting the proper information often involves talking to the proper person and asking them the proper stuff.

This other user, geezer, posted on this thread about how failure and losing and disappointment is a part of life and how learning to fail is just as important as learning to succeed. I must say geezer is right. Everybody fails from time to time, even the best of us. A good example of this would be the martial arts movie Best of the Best part 2. Early in the movie there is a scene where this boy fails his black belt test because he isn't able to break a cinder block. One of the things that must be done to get a black belt at the dojo where he goes is that you have to break a cinder block and he wasn't able to do it. All in all, he handled his failure quite well and while he was disappointed he said he would just have to work harder so that he could pass the next time. So that would be a good example of how failure is a part of life, but the thing is this, at least the boy knew why he failed and he knew what he needed to work on so that hopefully he could pass the next time around. With the situation I was in I didn't even know why I was failing and yes, I consider not testing in the first place to be failing.

The same thing can be said about an A in a class. You can say an A is just a mark on a piece of paper but it does represent achievement and it shows that you've, at least by the standards of a certain teacher or school, have learned the material to a certain level of proficiency. You could say a college diploma is just a fancy looking piece of paper that says you graduated and now have a degree, but the fact of the matter is that the diploma is a credential that opens more doors for you and qualifies you for more job opportunities.

So, as I said, its important to know what you need to do to reach your goal and I am not just talking about a black piece of cloth or a big letter A on a test paper or a fancy looking leather bound certificate that says you've got a degree, I am talking about the achievements that those things represent. From my own experience, I can tell you that in the martial arts that black belt is just the beginning. After you make black belt you then want to take your training and your martial arts to the next level, at least that's how it was with me. I am actually training harder and putting more into the martial arts after making black belt than before. When you do make black belt, at your dojo, they will probably expect more out of you, but aside from that you expect more out of yourself. So, making black belt, just like getting an A in a class or getting a college degree, does open more doors. But, to achieve that goal you've got to know what you need to do to get it, and that means asking about it, from the head sensei himself.