Begginers Question about Chi Sao

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Judokarl, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. Judokarl

    Judokarl White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Durham NC
    I started taking wing chun classes afew months ago to strengthen my striking and blocking. I love the class so far and have been studing its history and the applicatonis the entire time to get a full comprehesive grasp on the art. Sadly one thing still has me confused and thats Chi Sau. To me it kinda looks like the equivilant of Uchi Komi in the sense it appears to be a drill that you can do for a viraity of techniques. But I don't get how doing it agments your trappping ablity. Any clarificatoin would be much apericated. I dobut we will be doing Chi Sau for a while considering the instructor just started teaching in NC and all of his studetns are novice's.
     
  2. Ironcrane

    Ironcrane Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2008
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Oregon
    How does Chi Sau augment your trapping ability? It'll teach you how to slip around the other persons defense as he tries to block you. It'll also help to keep you from getting tangled up with other people who try to grab you, and yank you around. It'll become much more clear when you start doing it, which shouldn't be to far down the road as it's a basic exercise.
     
  3. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,080
    Likes Received:
    261
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Matsudo , Japan
    Make yourself comfortable this is going to get deep , chi sau is a sophisticated tool indeed.
    In order to understand how trapping is applied in Wing Chun one must first have a basic understanding of the theory and mechanics involved in chi sau.

    Basically speaking , the theory of chi sau can be likened to that of an inflatable ball bobbing around in a swimming pool.
    You try to apply pressure to the ball but it spins away and springs back up due to the water acting on it from underneath.

    The resilient pressure of the water acting on the inflatable ball is the same as what we in Wing Chun call "springy force or "forward force"

    In essence , we are always trying to project this sphere (our inflatable pool ball ) at the opponents centreline.

    The revolving force of the sphere is enacted when the arms are in the position of Tan sau , Fook sau and Bong sau.
    Any force contacting this sphere can be spun away and redirected exactly like the ball in the pool analogy.

    If we are projecting our sphere properly and have a continuous flow of "forward force " our arms are positioned correctly , force focused properly to the centreline , and our force is projected evenly along our forearm from elbow to wrist , then nothing can get in.

    How does this relate to trapping you might ask?
    Well if someone is at a very high level and "rolling" correctly there is no trapping.

    For the trap to be pulled off correctly , the other person has to be making a mistake , eg. uneven force along the forearm.
    Chi sau teaches you to have evenly projected force along the whole forearm , if someone has no experience of chi sau there will be a weakness some where along the arm that can be exploited.

    Other traps take advantage of incorrect positioning such as Bong sau wandering over the centreline , in which case the hands are crossed and now vulnerable to the opponent dropping his Fook sau and trapping both the hands.

    Similarly if the persons Fook sau is wandering over the centreline , it is susceptible to being pinned by the opponents elbow (Bong sau).

    Each particular trap is used for a particular error that the opponent is making , the skill is in having the sensitivity to realise which way his force is going and apply the specific trap for that situation.
    The opportunity for the trap is either there or it isn't.

    As I have said many times before , the best counter to trapping is correct rolling , don't make any mistakes and it is very hard for you to be trapped.

    But by the same token , we are human beings , not machines , and as such we are apt to make mistakes .
    That is why for every trap , there is a counter to that trap.

    So in summary the opponent must be making a fundamental error for you to execute a trap , you don't just trap because you feel like it .

    Most times there is no need to trap anyway , because they have so many weaknesses in their defence that you can just expand your angles and "crush" their structure or just hit through all the gaps.
     
  4. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,455
    Likes Received:
    2,442
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    This really gets to the core of it. People who don't really know Wing Chun, but who try to adapt some of its techniques (such as some of the JKD crowd) often try to train trapping sequences as an end in themselves... like a trick or gimmick to tie up your opponent. In WC/VT/WT we don't try to trap our opponent, our goal is to penetrate their defenses and hit them. If your positioning is good and your opponent's is not, then sometimes trapping happens. Useful, sure. But not our objective.
     
  5. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,080
    Likes Received:
    261
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Location:
    Matsudo , Japan
    Those multiple trapping sequences you sometimes see are a scream aren't they.
    In my experience someone does the trap and then hits , or the trap is countered and they themselves are hit.

    Or in some cases the counter trap is then re-countered and then defended , but it doesn't go much beyond that .
    Usually it's a trap and hit , then more hitting.

    Certainly you don't see multiple strings of trapping techniques performed without any counter by the other person , that would suggest you have a very compliant partner right there , so you might as well go and train on the wooden dummy.
     
  6. Judokarl

    Judokarl White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Durham NC
    I wanted to thank you for the in-depth response. I got confused because when I did style research a majority of the videos when I searched were chi sao.
     
  7. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,760
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Kansas City MO
    The short of it is chi sao teaches sensitivity to your opponents movements and gives you some tools to react to those movements. I also teaches yo how to contraol an oppoenent, to some degree. There is a lot o chi sao and I'm not really doing it justice as a training tool, but this is the bare bones of it.
     
  8. Domino

    Domino Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Preston
    A wing chun brother went abroad for a seminar with another lineage and said he could tell a mile off they don't do much sensitivity, so in my opinion its very important.
     
  9. zepedawingchun

    zepedawingchun Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Moore, SC
    Awesome post, best explanation of chi sau to date.
     
  10. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes Received:
    453
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Brilliant! :asian:
     
  11. jeff_hasbrouck

    jeff_hasbrouck Green Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Bismarck, ND
    First off, training with a novice has it's pitfalls, but I'm sure your aware.

    Anyways, the best thing I can say is WAIT FOR IT. If nothing else, just take it for what it is. If you focus too much on whats down the road, you won't be able to see whats right in front of you... Best of luck my good sir!!!

    Jeff
     
  12. Domino

    Domino Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Preston
    Love the explanations MJM.
     
  13. WingChun

    WingChun White Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    The main focus in chi sao is sensitivity and forward pressure, not trapping per se. It is in no way sparring or free fighting. You only trap your "opponent" if the forward pressure allows it and you FEEL that you can trap him.123
     

Share This Page