Because Okinawa is..

[arnisador]

TKD borrows alot from Shotokan in the same sense that Shotokan borrowed alot from Okinawan-te.

Yes, and I certainly consider TKD Korean despite this. Everything comes from something!

 

[47MartialMan]

Everything comes from something!

How true!

 

[Makalakumu]

The arts I listed in my last post have not.

In which ways do you think they have not changed?

I see TKDists doing kicks that I never did in Shotokan. TSD has such a wide blend of techniques that it clearly has outgrown its roots.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) In which ways do you think they have not changed?

2) I see TKDists doing kicks that I never did in Shotokan.
3) TSD has such a wide blend of techniques that it clearly has outgrown its roots.

1) Yudo/Judo & Kumdo/Kendo for example follow the same basic rules.
2) I see kicks in Shotokan that I don't see in Okinawan styles.
3) From what I have seen I think TSD has, to some extent, gone back to it's "Okinawan root" instead of sticking with the "Japanese" style of karate they were originally taught.

 

[Makalakumu]

3) From what I have seen I think TSD has, to some extent, gone back to it's "Okinawan root" instead of sticking with the "Japanese" style of karate they were originally taught.

There are two teachers of Uechi Ryu in my area. One of them I know is very good. Would you recommend looking into this art in order to explore the Okinawan - TSD connection?

I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but I think that you mentioned that it was Okinawan...

 

[Andrew Green]

There are two teachers of Uechi Ryu in my area. One of them I know is very good. Would you recommend looking into this art in order to explore the Okinawan - TSD connection?

I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but I think that you mentioned that it was Okinawan...

Uechi ryu wouldn't have too much connection to Tang Soo Do, different branch of Okinawan Karate.

You'd be better off looking at styles that trace back to Anko Itosu, and even other styles from the "Shuri" region. Uechi ryu is much more kung-fuish.

 

[RRouuselot]

There are two teachers of Uechi Ryu in my area. One of them I know is very good. Would you recommend looking into this art in order to explore the Okinawan - TSD connection?

I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but I think that you mentioned that it was Okinawan...

Not really. I would say look into a traditional Okinawan Shorinryu type dojo. The kata will be mnore similar.
Where are you located by the way?

 

[Makalakumu]

Not really. I would say look into a traditional Okinawan Shorinryu type dojo. The kata will be mnore similar.
Where are you located by the way?

Superior, WI.

The Uechi Ryu senior instructor up here died in a car crash. It was a real tragedy. Julius Scott was Old School and we all miss him. His students carry on his tradition though.

My dojang is actually in the same building that Mr. Scott taught in for decades...

 

[RRouuselot]

Superior, WI.

The Uechi Ryu senior instructor up here died in a car crash. It was a real tragedy. Julius Scott was Old School and we all miss him. His students carry on his tradition though.

My dojang is actually in the same building that Mr. Scott taught in for decades...

I just sent you 3 names of folks to contact.
Let me know how it goes.

 

[Makalakumu]

I just sent you 3 names of folks to contact.
Let me know how it goes.

Thank you, sir. :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Uechi ryu wouldn't have too much connection to Tang Soo Do, different branch of Okinawan Karate.

You'd be better off looking at styles that trace back to Anko Itosu, and even other styles from the "Shuri" region. Uechi ryu is much more kung-fuish.

Yes, Uechi is very different from the others. It's Chinese roots are relatively recent. Intersting system, but it focuses on things like the one-knuckle punch and kicking with the knuckles of the toes (!) and isn't very similar at all to TKD and TSD.

Do a search on Uechi in the Karate forum for more info.

 

[TimoS]

While I don't agree with attempts to rewrite it's history, it does have one that goes beyond Shotokan.

Okay, this got me curious. What part of TKD history do you think goes beyond Shotokan ? As I've understood it, the official rewritten history goes something like TKD being based Taekyon (not sure about the spelling), but that story apparently has quite a few holes in it

 

[Andrew Green]

the official rewritten history goes something like TKD being based Taekyon (not sure about the spelling), but that story apparently has quite a few holes in it

Well, there is very likely a Taekyon influence, but TKD does not date back 2000 years without any connection to Shotokan...

The whole getting into the Olympics was a rather large thing that SHotokan had nothing to do with.

A lot of Korean culture was lost durring the Japanese occupation, not just martial arts. After the Japanese left they tried to rebuild there culture as best they could, using what was there from before that could be remembered and modifying what the Japanese had left behind to there culture.

Truthfully I don't think it is at all fair to tell a culture that they have no culture of there own because so many years ago they where occupied by another country / culture and had it forced on them.

TKD is different, it was adapted from what could be remembered combined with what was available to create something unique, and Korean.

 

[RRouuselot]

Well, there is very likely a Taekyon influence, but TKD does not date back 2000 years without any connection to Shotokan...

The TKD I have seen in Korea and the US used Shotokan kata as it's core curriculum.

In fact I saw very little training that didn’t look like it came from shotokan. The one difference I did see was emphasis on kicks….and high ones at that. The kata were the same basic kata but done a little “bouncier”. Other than that there is not much difference except maybe the commands that were given in Korean.

I have noticed also that some Koreans do NOT like it when you say something about TKD coming from Japan. Very sensitive historical point for them.

Some have been down right “ultra right wingers” about TKD being a “pure Korean” art. Maybe they figure National Pride gives them the right to re-write some of their martial history.

Hell the Japanese are just as bad……they think Karate is a Japanese invention like Judo and Kendo.

Starting around the 1920’s the Japanese Government forbid the use of the Okinawan languages (there are 3 main languages in Okinawa) and if caught using it you would be punished.

This might also be of interest, in Okinawa dojo there are not that many names for techniques. These names and instructions have been “Japanified”. Much of the etiquette in the dojo is also from Japanese culture and not Okinawa too.

 

[TimoS]

Hell the Japanese are just as bad??they think Karate is a Japanese invention like Judo and Kendo.

But on the other hand, hasn't Okinawa been part of Japan for quite some time already ? Especially during the formation of well, at least most karate styles. So in that sense they can rightfully say that it is japanese invention

I am, of course, aware that japanese and okinawan culture are quite separate from each other, but I just happen to be bored at work and this is an interesting topic to discuss

 

[RRouuselot]

1) But on the other hand, hasn't Okinawa been part of Japan for quite some time already ? Especially during the formation of well, at least most karate styles. So in that sense they can rightfully say that it is japanese invention

I am, of course, aware that japanese and okinawan culture are quite separate from each other, but I just happen to be bored at work and this is an interesting topic to discuss

1) There was no knowledge of karate in Japan until 1921. Formal instruction didn't happen in Japan until several years later. Even then it was not all that popular and there were very few teachers from Okinawa in Japan at that time. Japanese had little or no influence on karate in Okinawa.

 

[TimoS]

1) There was no knowledge of karate in Japan until 1921. Formal instruction didn't happen in Japan until several years later. Even then it was not all that popular and there were very few teachers from Okinawa in Japan at that time. Japanese had little or no influence on karate in Okinawa.

Oh yes, that is of course true, I was just arguing (for arguments sake) that wasn't Okinawa part of Japan even prior to 1921, so in that sense it could be said to be japanese.

 

[RRouuselot]

Oh yes, that is of course true, I was just arguing (for arguments sake) that wasn't Okinawa part of Japan even prior to 1921, so in that sense it could be said to be japanese.

If I am not mistaken they were “officially” a prefecture (state) of Japan in 1879 but were still a tributary state of China until the first part of the 1900’s.

 

[arnisador]

If I am not mistaken they were “officially” a prefecture (state) of Japan in 1879 but were still a tributary state of China until the first part of the 1900’s.

How did this work? Didn't the Japanese depose the Okinawan royal family in the 1880s? Who paid the tribute to China, then--the Japanese govt.?

 

[RRouuselot]

How did this work? Didn't the Japanese depose the Okinawan royal family in the 1880s? Who paid the tribute to China, then--the Japanese govt.?

As a result of the Japanese invasion of 1609 the king of Okinawa was taken to Edo (Tokyo) for his own “protection”, read held prisoner.

He was taken to some part of southern Japan and made to travel by land all the way to Tokyo. I have heard the trip took almost a year.

Evidently the Royal family of Okinawa returned but never reclaimed the thrown as they once had. However Okinawa was still kind of like Guam is to the US today…….a protectorate, and then in 1879 became a prefecture. Oddly enough Okinawans still needed authorization to go to “Japan” and work even in the 1920’s. Kind of odd for someone from the same country to have such a requirement.

If my understanding is correct the Okianwan Gov. or possibly the Royal family was still paying tribute to the Chinese, most likely the Chinese Emperor.