Because Okinawa is..

[47MartialMan]

I was just wondering how, per Okinawan history, that sources are creditable without documentation and photographs?.

In relation to the same nowadays?

Some Hawaiians beleive that the US "took" Hawaii, but yet things on those islands still remain indigenious. Whereas when Japan gained control over Okinawa, are things still indigenious there? Perhaps no longer Karate?

Not this is not a rant about Japan or the Japanese people. It is to come to an understanding that Okinawa's culture still Okinwan per most part, or they have much Japanese influences nowadays?

 

[RRouuselot]

1)I was just wondering how, per Okinawan history, that sources are creditable without documentation and photographs?.

In relation to the same nowadays?

2) Some Hawaiians beleive that the US "took" Hawaii, but yet things on those islands still remain indigenious. Whereas when Japan gained control over Okinawa, are things still indigenious there? Perhaps no longer Karate?

Not this is not a rant about Japan or the Japanese people. It is to come to an understanding that Okinawa's culture still Okinwan per most part, or they have much Japanese influences nowadays?

1)There is documentation in several books of the Azato
's existence. The man was friends with Itosu, a well noted and well documented karate figure, Azato was also the teacher of several well noted karateka. This FACT has been documented and corroborated by respected individuals. I mentioned it was odd there were no photographs or drawings as an observation…..not as a witch hunt. I have yet to see a photograph of Moses……so by your logic it might not have existed.

2)There are very few “pure” Hawaiians left, much of the Hawaiian culture has been infused with western culture. There is however some very Hawaiian culture still around. Okinawans, unlike Hawaiians and the west, have coexisted with Japan and China for centuries. There are still many indigenous things in Okinawa, karate being one of them. If you would like to more information perhaps you should go there.

 

[RRouuselot]

So the Japanese took karate as they took Okinawa?

You really need to study your history on this matter before we can have any sort of discussion. I feel your being quite selfish asking me to bring you up to speed on this because you haven’t/can’t/won’t research it yourself.

 

[47MartialMan]

Nah, just posting ponerance in relation to the thread.

 

[arnisador]

I don't think the Japanese took Karate...I don't think that that was something they wanted.

 

[47MartialMan]

What i meant by took it does many Jaoanese Karate schools show homeage orl ineage to Okinawa?

 

[arnisador]

I guess all Japanese karate schools are derived from Okinawan systems, if karate is used in the strict sense (not as in TKD is "Korean karate"). I'm not sure about "homage" though; I guess I'd say that in my experience, Japanese karateka don't unduly emphasize the Okinawan connection, but I've never heard one deny it.

I don't think I quite understand what you're getting at with these questions?

 

[47MartialMan]

I mean, could it actually be true that Karate was not Okinawan given, at least, by the very essence of its name? In what other manner, per even any particular technique or method, could it even be indigenious of Okinawa and not practiced other than on Okinawa? So given certain accounts, can it be Okinawan or of Okinawa? Of meaning just happened to be there, by incident, but not actually developed there.

The notion of it being developed by peasants to over-throw a magnificent armed force? Or the notion that it was practice by the island nobels, as though they were rich or wealthy without mainland exchange. Thus exchange was on other things.
Could it be, that Okinawa, was a "mutual" place where China and Japan could still do trade, etc., without "losing face" via direct exchange? Thus so, such a mutual place could have only transmitted information that wasn't truely developed there, per only passed on?

And without documents or other materialistic proof, can it be stated that such was developed there or that certain people had actually existed there?
Could it be a hoax that it was just another martial art that its actual history or ties are shrouded without the concrete burden of proof that it had actually developed there. And that certain persons tied into this had been fabricated or much detail is not accredited.

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I mean, could it actually be true that Karate was not Okinawan given, at least, by the very essence of its name? In what other manner, per even any particular technique or method, could it even be indigenious of Okinawa and not practiced other than on Okinawa? So given certain accounts, can it be Okinawan or of Okinawa? Of meaning just happened to be there, by incident, but not actually developed there.

2) The notion of it being developed by peasants to over-throw a magnificent armed force? Or the notion that it was practice by the island nobels, as though they were rich or wealthy without mainland exchange. Thus exchange was on other things.
Could it be, that Okinawa, was a "mutual" place where China and Japan could still do trade, etc., without "losing face" via direct exchange? Thus so, such a mutual place could have only transmitted information that wasn't truely developed there, per only passed on?

3) And without documents or other materialistic proof, can it be stated that such was developed there or that certain people had actually existed there?

1)[font=&quot] [/font]As I said before, do your own research and you might come up with the answers to your questions.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Again, do your research and you will find the “peasant theory” to be inaccurate.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]There are many documents that discuss karate, it’s beginnings, and subsequent development. There is plenty of information in both Japanese and English if you actually look for it you can find it. I would post it but I have posted material on this subject countless times over the years on various boards and feel no need to do it again just for you. Do some searching on your own.

 

[47MartialMan]

Well, it wasn't directed to you to answer.

And, if you take such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.

And, yes, I have perfrom much research and there are many diffferent accounts whereas can any be truely accurate.

And, I was checking to see if anyone may have something else to say differently.

 

[RRouuselot]

Well, it wasn't directed to you to answer.

1) And, if you take such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.

2) And, yes, I have perfrom much research and there are many diffferent accounts whereas can any be truely accurate.

3) And, I was checking to see if anyone may have something else to say differently.

1) you have no idea of what I take or don't take as truths.....I have researched this in English as well as Japanese, seen rare documents on the subject as well, talked to many highly resepected people that have cunducted extensive research in the field on this topic........and you have done what?....a GOGGLE search?
2) See my first reply.
3) yeah right...

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) You have no idea of who I am. What I know or learned, and you take the presumption that I had googled. (And I did state:And, if you take such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.)


2.) Rare documents dateing to when?

3.) And I didnt ask you to post info that you may had on other forums countless times. Whereas every forum there is the evidence of repeated posts/thread/information anyway. So if you dont desire to post info, then let others reply.



Now, lets see, where was I:

Yes, if Okinawa considered Japan mowadays, could the inhabitants still be true Okinawans?

Likewise, Italian/Irish, etc, being born, say for instance in the US. Are they Americans or truely Italians/Irish, etc.,

 

[RRouuselot]

1.) You have no idea of who I am. What I know or learned, and you take the presumption that I had googled. (And I did state:And, if you take such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.)


2.) Rare documents dateing to when?

3.) And I didnt ask you to post info that you may had on other forums countless times. Whereas every forum there is the evidence of repeated posts/thread/information anyway. So if you dont desire to post info, then let others reply.



4) Now, lets see, where was I:

5) Yes, if Okinawa considered Japan mowadays, could the inhabitants still be true Okinawans?

6) Likewise, Italian/Irish, etc, being born, say for instance in the US. Are they Americans or truely Italians/Irish, etc.,

1)[font=&quot] [/font]name your sources…..your “Okinawan” teacher….:rofl:

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Go to Hokama’s museum in Okinawa and have a look for yourself.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]No, you bluntly asked for information and I posted it on more than a few occasions.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]You were trolling…….

5)[font=&quot] [/font]Go there and ask an Okinawan if they are Japanese or Okinawan……oh but that’s right you studied from an “Okinawan” didn’t you…

6)[font=&quot] [/font]Okinawan’s have been proven to be a genetically different race. I have also posted this as well as a lot of other facts about Okinawa, karate etc. on this board as well as E-Budo and other boards, I will not waste my time or energy re-posting it for the likes of you.

 

[The Kai]

47 Martial Man. Pick up a copy of Shotokan's secret by Bruce Clayton, allthough it is a little pro Funakoshi-it will give you a better picture of the political forces that gave rise to Karate.

As I understand it once TE made it to Japan, the japanese did everything in thier power to tweak the history a tad. Not so much to elimante any connection to Okinwa or China but to kinda gloss over the history

 

[47MartialMan]

Thanks to all who posted informatively.

I started the thread:
Because Okinawa is considered part of Japan's prefecture, is Karate still considered as a Japanese art?

This post had started out of a recent conversation between a student of mine and me. I started his training and/or exposure to martial arts when he was at the age of ten. During my teachings and from past experiences, I told him, like all of my students, to not take anything for mere granted, even such as my own words. Studying Buddhism, and taking a sample from the Kalama Sutra, I wanted my students to be aware of many things that were not instilled to me from a couple of my previous/first instructors. Later, I had finally found three instructors, and at different time intervals, which had a better outlook on martial arts. Thus, using their influences has had me to present the same areas onto my students, per even philosophies.

Back to this particular student as afore-mentioned. After he had graduated from high school, which no one but I thought he would, he was confused on what to do with his new lifestyle. I had suggested for him to join a military arm force (pre- Iraq War). Thinking that he was going to sign up in either the Navy or the Air Force, he had surprised me, and others, with his decision to join the Marines. He called me with excitement and stated that he was in Japan. To my surprise, I had replied’ “Was he in Tokyo?” To his surprise, he had listened to as I did not pronounce it as Toh-key-oh.

With other exchanges of greeting, he had stated that he was on Okinawa and he wanted to study Okinawan Karate. I had replied; “How could he truly study Okinawan Karate?” By the sound of his confusion, I had informed him that perhaps Karate’s very name is Japanese or Japanese influenced. And that being part of Japan, can there still be a true Okinawan art? Giving example on how Italians/Irish, etc, in the US, can not truly be considered as the countries of origins. This meaning, per example food, Italian or Chinese food in the US cannot be considered as true food based in those countries.

Also, the display of other countries’ flags in a particular country as a symbol of respect or homage. Speaking to other martial artists with schools outside of the US, many do not display another country’s flag. And if such the case to pay homage, take Tae Kwon Do for example, (not bashing TKD), then why only display the Korean flag in an American school? Why not display a Jap one next to the Korean one as some TKD was influenced by the Japs? Further, way stop there? Why not display China’s flag next to the Jap flag, because Okinawans received many of the foundations of their art from mainland China?

So to label the origin of something is because of its true origins, its exact location, or for intrigue?

Because Okinawa is considered part of Japan's prefecture, is Karate still considered as a Japanese art? Thus, can Okinawans truely teach “Karate”?

 

[RRouuselot]

............. During my teachings and from past experiences, I told him, like all of my students, to not take anything for mere granted, even such as my own words. Studying Buddhism, and taking a sample from the Kalama Sutra, I wanted my students to be aware of many things that were not instilled to me from a couple of my previous/first instructors. ..........

:rofl:
This is why I and some other people think you are full of BS. If your teachers “instilled” in you something from the Kama Sutra I would be worried.
The "kama sutra" is a book on Tantric Sex.....not Buddhism!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[47MartialMan]

:rofl:
This is why I and some other people think you are full of BS. If your teachers “instilled” in you something from the Kama Sutra I would be worried.
The "kama sutra" is a book on Tantric Sex.....not Buddhism!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

No No no...this is why mods intervene.
You go off on a tangent and off topic.
And as though you actually know me.

I DID NOT SAY that my instructors had instilled any Buddhist practices per the Kalama Sutra...which I wonder if you know what it is.

It is the principle(s) of certain Buddhist studies, from MY own curiousity. However, the principle to go forth and learn other things were instilled to me from select teachers.

 

[47MartialMan]

:rofl:
This is why I and some other people think you are full of BS. If your teachers “instilled” in you something from the Kama Sutra I would be worried.
The "kama sutra" is a book on Tantric Sex.....not Buddhism!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

You always take my wording and posts out ofY context. As though youre so "high and mighty"...I did not state Kama sutra,,,,I spelled it Kalama Sutra.

 

[RRouuselot]

You always take my wording and posts out ofY context. As though youre so "high and mighty"...I did not state Kama sutra,,,,I spelled it Kalama Sutra.

Actually I liked your original post before the edit...it shows the real you:
Hello RRouuselot,

47MartialMan has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Because Okinawa is.. - in the Karate forum of MartialTalk.Com.

This thread is located at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23354&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Youre stupid...I did not state Kama sutra,,,,I speleed it Kalama Sutra moron
***************


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I knew you meant this Sutra........but wuth your "gift" for spelling who can be sure what you really mean........

Kalama Sutra

"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the
spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you
have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do
not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is
written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and
elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

- the Buddha

 

[47MartialMan]

Hmmn.....so you think that is amusing......

The "real" me.....is knowing the "real" you.