Basic vs Advanced?

[Steve]

Hmm… no, honestly, "deep guard" and "DLR guard" aren't particularly clear to me… as, really, I don't know what they are. I mean, it's pretty clear how muko and marui are both the most advanced and the most basic in their ryu to you, yeah? That's kinda why I asked for more clarification… I'm not sure what the difference even is, let alone why one is more "advanced" (or, more importantly, what makes it advanced compared to the "regular" guards… which is really what I was asking).

As far as advanced not meaning complex, well, I was taking that tack from you… your phrasing was incredulous that someone would be taught "the most complex, esoteric techniques" first… but, to get to the semantics, and to use your mathematical examples, none of the "higher forms" (whether your DLR guard, or algebra) exist without the fundamental aspects in the first place… and, if you come up against a problem, to solve it, you need to go back to the fundamental applications and principles (which really make up everything found in these "higher" aspects in the first place)… which is really what's meant when it's said that there are no advanced techniques (martially speaking). I am intrigued by your idea that you're "more old school" in this sense, though… or that this is somehow part of the "youtube society"…. as the examples I am referring to are a number of centuries old… and yeah, I'm more than aware of what words mean, Steve. Thanks.

Look, it isn't complicated. If you are learning something that relies upon or builds upon something else, it's more advanced. You don't need to know anything about DLR guard to understand the point.

I am not going to write you an essay on open guard techniques in bjj. It's just not all that relevant. Danny asked for an example and I provided one. But really, it could be anything. If learning A relies upon knowing B then A is more advanced than B. I can't dumb it down any more than that for you, Chris.

Regarding YouTube, it's this idea that one can skip basics and learn anything in any order. It can cause a lot of problems for people to be misled into believing that there are no advanced techniques.

 

[Steve]

I think many call techniques learned after learning basics advanced simply because of where the learning is within the curriculum. But does that really make that advanced. Within one's pedagogy there may be some basic material taught to beginner, other material as intermediate and even more taught as advanced. In every system I have spent an appreciable time in that has been the case; basic, intermediate, and advanced material but still all either fundamental aspects or combinations of fundamentals used in a more complex manner due to timing differences, range differences, the amount of fundamentals utilized within a short amount of time, the changing or abandoning the use of one action and using something different within the movements. Advanced is the ability to apply the fundamentals though-out ever changing dynamics in shorter amounts of time.

Why redefine the term? If in every system you've participated in, the use of the terms has been consistent, why confuse the issue? I hear what you're saying, and just believe that the simple use of the terms works well and is commonly understood.

 

[Danny T]

Why redefine the term? If in every system you've participated in, the use of the terms has been consistent, why confuse the issue? I hear what you're saying, and just believe that the simple use of the terms works well and is commonly understood.

So my questioning is an attempt to redefine the term advanced?
In a curriculum where a fundamental movement or technique is presented in an intermediate or even in an advanced level would be an advanced technique? There are some techniques in one system that are basic and in another the same technique is presented within the intermediate portion and even as an advanced in another system.
"In regard to Technique: What is the difference in Basic and Advanced?"

 

[Steve]

So my questioning is an attempt to redefine the term advanced? In a curriculum where a fundamental movement or technique is presented in an intermediate or even in an advanced level would be an advanced technique? There are some techniques in one system that are basic and in another the same technique is presented within the intermediate portion and even as an advanced in another system.
"In regard to Technique: What is the difference in Basic and Advanced?"

I must have misunderstood you, as you seem to have misunderstood me. I don't view your questioning as an attempt to redefine the term "advanced." I'm specifically responding to the idea that there are no advanced techniques. I think suggesting there are no advanced techniques is redefining the terms. I'm not sure, but don't believe you're one of the people who have done that. I'd have to go back and read all of your posts again.

Regardless, rather than risk any more misunderstanding, I'll simply reiterate what I wrote to Chris above. If learning A depends upon knowing B, then A is more advanced than B. It's really that simple. You asked for examples, and I provided a few, but I'm sure you can come up with some of your own in whatever systems you train.

I don't believe that every martial arts technique is independent of every other technique, which would be the only way that they could all be "basic." In order for this to be true, a human being learns a martial art differently from how human beings learn everything else, from the cradle to the grave. And that sounds pretty far fetched to me.

 

[Hyoho]

Its all very well keep using these words basic and advanced but they are English words. To examine Japanese Kanji of specific terms taken from confucianism and buddhism there is a far more deeper meaning to all these things. Any Western words used are purely from a Western point of view. For example the Japanese word 'keiko' is translated as 'training' but it really is not so simplistic. The Japanese deeper meaning is to "store a seed of learning". Therefore we do 'keiko' and also we do training expressed as 'toraining' for say using weight, running, rope climbing.

One needs to look for the deeper meaning of what we do. All part and parcel of learning "arts".

 

[Danny T]

Its all very well keep using these words basic and advanced but they are English words. To examine Japanese Kanji of specific terms taken from confucianism and buddhism there is a far more deeper meaning to all these things. Any Western words used are purely from a Western point of view.

What about those basic and advanced techniques that are not from Japanese systems or styles?

 

[Steve]

Its all very well keep using these words basic and advanced but they are English words. To examine Japanese Kanji of specific terms taken from confucianism and buddhism there is a far more deeper meaning to all these things. Any Western words used are purely from a Western point of view. For example the Japanese word 'keiko' is translated as 'training' but it really is not so simplistic. The Japanese deeper meaning is to "store a seed of learning". Therefore we do 'keiko' and also we do training expressed as 'toraining' for say using weight, running, rope climbing.

One needs to look for the deeper meaning of what we do. All part and parcel of learning "arts".

Sometimes, a whale represents God or the inscrutability of nature. The whale can represent the unknown, or the limits of man's understanding of the universe relative to the vastness of our ignorance. The white whale is symbolic of many things. Moby Dick is a novel just crammed with deeper, symbolic meaning, but in order for any of that to matter at all, it must succeed in telling the story of a whale being a whale.

In order for any part of the "art" of training to make sense, it must first simply be what it is. In this case, if A relies on B, then A is more basic than B. And while it's fine to hint at deeper examination of training, that's a fine discussion that exists to the side of a conversation about the difference between basic and advanced techniques.

 

[Hyoho]

Sometimes, a whale represents God or the inscrutability of nature. The whale can represent the unknown, or the limits of man's understanding of the universe relative to the vastness of our ignorance. The white whale is symbolic of many things. Moby Dick is a novel just crammed with deeper, symbolic meaning, but in order for any of that to matter at all, it must succeed in telling the story of a whale being a whale.

In order for any part of the "art" of training to make sense, it must first simply be what it is. In this case, if A relies on B, then A is more basic than B. And while it's fine to hint at deeper examination of training, that's a fine discussion that exists to the side of a conversation about the difference between basic and advanced techniques.

I think you missed my point. English words are being used to dissect something that is not English anyway. Japanese don't even have word for basic. It's written as ベーシック. Advanced translated does have kanji 進んだ; 上級の. This means to progress or move forward. Its not symbolism. It's the deeper meaning of what we practice every day. At least for some of us it seems.

As I already posted it's easier to identify by using the word fundamental and not basic.

 

[Hyoho]

What about those basic and advanced techniques that are not from Japanese systems or styles?

Sorry but I'm not too good at Chinese or Korean. Kanji 'is' Chinese and has similar meanings although pronounced differently

 

[Steve]

I think you missed my point. English words are being used to dissect something that is not English anyway. Japanese don't even have word for basic. It's written as ベーシック. Advanced translated does have kanji 進んだ; 上級の. This means to progress or move forward. Its not symbolism. It's the deeper meaning of what we practice every day. At least for some of us it seems.

As I already posted it's easier to identify by using the word fundamental and not basic.

I'm confused. Where did the conversation turn from basic and advanced techniques to a discussion of how people in Japan view their training? I think you're presuming everyone here agrees that martial arts are, by definition, Asian. See below.

Also, as a quick aside, language is symbolism. You cannot escape it. A word is not the thing; it represents the thing. A thing (regardless of what that 'thing' might be) exists whether it has been assigned a word to represent it or not.

Sorry but I'm not too good at Chinese or Korean. Kanji 'is' Chinese and has similar meanings although pronounced differently

What about those basic and advanced techniques that are not from an Asian system or style? If someone other than you is discussing kanji, I missed it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are no advanced techniques.

I taught a kihon class (fundamentals… basics, in many translations, although I'm with Hyoho in his preference of terminology) last week, and it was more complex, more detailed, and more in depth than my regular classes… in fact, it was more so than my senior classes. And the simple reason is that the fundamentals are the advanced methods… without them, there is nothing at all.

I think this comes down to what sort of definition you are putting on "advanced." I'm totally with you on teaching in-depth fundamentals classes. Those are my favorite classes, both as a student and a teacher.

That said, I don't use "advanced" to mean complex, detailed, or in depth. I'm with Steve in thinking that it is more useful to save the term for topics which require the student to have certain foundational skills as a pre-requisite to learn effectively.

Yes, there is a progression of skills… but not in the sense of necessarily increasing complexity. Instead, it's more a matter of building on the principles… which, in many cases, can be stripping back (mechanically) of what you do. Probably the best way to look at it is that everything you do, complex, "advanced", or "basic", are simply different expressions and applications of those same "basics".

Totally agreed. The "advanced" variation of a given technique might be more complex. Alternately, it might be a simpler movement that requires greater timing or greater coordination than the "basic" version.

Hmm… no, honestly, "deep guard" and "DLR guard" aren't particularly clear to me… as, really, I don't know what they are.

For the record, De La Riva guard is a specialized variation on the standard open guard, while deep half guard is a specialized variation on half-guard. They aren't the first examples I would choose for "advanced" topics, but you could make a plausible case for regarding them as such. They require you to understand the standard principles of open guard, while adding specialized considerations on top. In addition, they would probably be trickier for a novice to learn than the usual basic guard material. (I say probably, because I don't think I've ever tried teaching those topics to a novice.)

Its all very well keep using these words basic and advanced but they are English words. To examine Japanese Kanji of specific terms taken from confucianism and buddhism there is a far more deeper meaning to all these things. Any Western words used are purely from a Western point of view. For example the Japanese word 'keiko' is translated as 'training' but it really is not so simplistic. The Japanese deeper meaning is to "store a seed of learning". Therefore we do 'keiko' and also we do training expressed as 'toraining' for say using weight, running, rope climbing.

One needs to look for the deeper meaning of what we do. All part and parcel of learning "arts".

I think you missed my point. English words are being used to dissect something that is not English anyway. Japanese don't even have word for basic. It's written as ベーシック. Advanced translated does have kanji 進んだ; 上級の. This means to progress or move forward. Its not symbolism. It's the deeper meaning of what we practice every day. At least for some of us it seems.

As I already posted it's easier to identify by using the word fundamental and not basic.

I'm not sure what Japanese kanji have to do with my study of BJJ, Muay Thai, Kali, or wrestling. Can you clarify? Also, what is being dissected that is not English?

If you think there are subtleties contained within the Japanese terms ベーシック and 進んだ; 上級の that are generally relevant to the process of teaching/learning martial arts, then please translate as well as you can and explain why those concepts might be more useful than "basic/advanced".

If you think these are concepts that only apply to Japanese arts, that would be interesting too. If that is the case, could you explain why?


Getting back to the original question, I generally think of "basic" or "fundamental" techniques as those which a) underlie everything else in the art and b) are practically learnable by beginners. If a technique is more specialized and requires previous training as a foundation in order to learn effectively, then I would call it advanced. This raises the question of what you might call a technique which is easy for a beginner to learn but is only useful in a specialized circumstance. This is the weakness of trying to shoehorn everything into a one-dimensional rating system.

The basic/advanced dichotomy can be interesting from a teaching perspective. My greatest joy in training is probably those moments when I discover new details and nuances in the fundamental techniques that I learned in my first year of training. There's a certain thrill when I can say "Wow, I've been doing this wrong for years!" I try to then turn around and pass those lessons on to my students. Sometimes, however, I discover that the new way of doing things requires a degree of body control and coordination that my beginning students don't yet have. For example, I've started performing my triangle chokes according to the way Ryan Hall teaches it. I find it more effective, more bio-mechanically sound, and more in keeping with the fundamental principles of jiu-jitsu. Unfortunately, I'm finding that a significant percentage of my beginning students have a hard time executing the choke that way. The next time I teach the triangle in a fundamentals class, I'll probably go back to the classic Gracie approach, because the beginners pick that version up a lot easier.

 

[jks9199]

Tony's post made me think of this...

Often times, I find that an advanced move is actually the result of refining and discovering the little keys that underlie or sometimes are hidden within the "basics." My training focused from an early point on finding, learning, and learning how to teach those keys or fundamentals.

Now, one of the things my own training is often focusing on removing extraneous or superfluous elements within techniques...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Tony's post made me think of this...

Often times, I find that an advanced move is actually the result of refining and discovering the little keys that underlie or sometimes are hidden within the "basics." My training focused from an early point on finding, learning, and learning how to teach those keys or fundamentals.

Now, one of the things my own training is often focusing on removing extraneous or superfluous elements within techniques...

Have you ever removed one of those extraneous elements, only to later discover that it was, in fact, one of the little keys?

 

[Hyoho]

I'm not sure what Japanese kanji have to do with my study of BJJ, Muay Thai, Kali, or wrestling. Can you clarify? Also, what is being dissected that is not English?

If you think there are subtleties contained within the Japanese terms ベーシック and 進んだ; 上級の that are generally relevant to the process of teaching/learning martial arts, then please translate as well as you can and explain why those concepts might be more useful than "basic/advanced".

If you think these are concepts that only apply to Japanese arts, that would be interesting too. If that is the case, could you explain why?

Sorry I should have been more specific. This first word ベーシック is in kata kana. Its the script used for none Japanese words or new words. There is no word for basics in Japanese.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sorry I should have been more specific. This first word ベーシック is in kata kana. Its the script used for none Japanese words or new words. There is no word for basics in Japanese.

Thanks for the clarification. Any response to any of my questions?

 

[jks9199]

Have you ever removed one of those extraneous elements, only to later discover that it was, in fact, one of the little keys?

 

[jks9199]

Have you ever removed one of those extraneous elements, only to later discover that it was, in fact, one of the little keys?

Not yet... but I've only started "taking things out" after some 30 years... much of that focused on understanding the keys. In fact, in the past, I've been adding more of the keys in where they got lost. I've read articles that talk about "sealing" a technique in Japanese arts; the concept applies across different styles. The "seal" is that little detail that makes the difference in whether or not it really works versus simply functions. Sometimes it's as minor as bending someone's wrist before you try to break a grip, or how you place your hand on their arm, or what you do with your foot to free it up. It might be the difference between a very small reach back before you pull your hand forward... Details that are often almost unconscious once integrated. (It does help to bring them to conscious awareness now and then.)

But the opposite is true, too... People add things, often out of misunderstanding, and because they lack those little details. Maybe they don't understand how to free that foot to move -- so an extra step gets added. Or they don't know to bend the wrist to "kill" the gripping hand, so they add a strike to the arm in order to break the grip...

 

[Hyoho]

Thanks for the clarification. Any response to any of my questions?

Not really Tony. Doing five things it must take up all your time separating them to reach high degree in all. I have done a lot over the years but they are more like the wheels of one cart.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not really Tony. Doing five things it must take up all your time separating them to reach high degree in all. I have done a lot over the years but they are more like the wheels of one cart.

Too bad. I was curious about what point you were trying to make.

As far as the (four, not five) arts I listed, I'm only instructor level in two of them and I have days when I don't necessarily feel like I'm "high degree" in anything. (Probably because my goal posts for what constitutes a high degree of skill are constantly moving as I learn more.)

Regardless, I don't really separate them any more (other than the fact that they are often taught in separate classes). As you say, they are the wheels on one cart. I usually use the analogy of comparing them to facets of a gem, but your comparison works just as well.

 

[Hyoho]

One can look at fundamentals as a key to a safe, maybe a locked china cabinet. You can see they good stuff inside but will never have access to it unless you have that key. One teacher had me looking for a key for seven years with "one" basic waza. When I picked it up he noticed at the same time and said "Ah you found it". Its not that I was bad at what I did to have taken so long. The good stuff takes a lifetime.