Are all these techs needed?

[MJS]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Detour From Doom

Ok, maybe I'm having one of those mental block days today, I dont know. I thought that he was saying that he could do 5 Swords against a kick. Detour from Doom is a totally different tech. IMO, doing a modification is making a slight change, not doing a separate tech.

Mike

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Wouldnt it be great if someone could get one technique to work
against everything?

Wouldn't it be great if people had no need to learn techniques.

Ian.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MJS
Ok, maybe I'm having one of those mental block days today, I dont know. I thought that he was saying that he could do 5 Swords against a kick. Detour from Doom is a totally different tech. IMO, doing a modification is making a slight change, not doing a separate tech.

Mike

Switching to lower case does not change the idea that you are using a single tech.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by MJS
Ok, maybe I'm having one of those mental block days today, I dont know. I thought that he was saying that he could do 5 Swords against a kick. Detour from Doom is a totally different tech. IMO, doing a modification is making a slight change, not doing a separate tech.

Mike

With a slight modification Five Swords can be done against a kick. With this in mind it will have a Detour From Doom flavor.

Also you made me think of something else and it has to do with Master Keys. Isnt the first two moves of:

Clutching Feathers
Twin Kimono
Lone Kimono
Snapping Twig
etc.....

Are not these the very same move in principle but used in a different context? Granted these techniques have different names
but instead of thinking of these techniuqes as being different, wouldnt it be more rewarding to think of these techniques as
varations of each other?

Looking back to my days in Tracy's Kenpo I learned a Technique
called I believe Crash Of the Eagle with many different varations.
In EPAK this same technique is called Circling Wing. Why didnt
Mr. Parker keep all the varations of this technique in his system?

take Care

 

[MJS]

See, I told you it was one of those days!

Thanks for the clarification!

Mike

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Wouldn't it be great if people had no need to learn techniques.

Ian.

Conceptional learning with no structure is very difficult in the beginning in my opinion; however, there are those who can do it.
The structure is designed to teach principles. If you win the fight
and you didnt know which technique you did with its extension.
so what! The point is you won the fight.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The concept of Master Key techniques is not new here. Many systems have a master key kata containing all of the key concepts or techniques of the system. For instance, Shotokan kata Kanku Dai is considered the master key kata for Shotokan.
http://ase.tufts.edu/karate/kata/kankudai.mpg

Until the Tracy's Bros started adding techniques and variations, EPAK had 128 techniques + 32 extensions. Somehow this grew to 250 techniques for EPAK and 600 variations for Tracy's. But the core concepts remained the same.

It goes back to my earlier point about how you train. Memorization is required for larger curriculums. This memorization is a Zen method of teaching the concepts: learn the movements properly and the concepts will be learned subconsciously. The alternative is to learn core techniques, learn concepts, and then use the concepts to extend the core techniques.

Either way, it is not how many techniques you learn and it is not how well you understand the concepts behind the techniques. What matters is whether or not you can APPLY the concepts and make however many techniques you know WORK.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

Either way, it is not how many techniques you learn and it is not how well you understand the concepts behind the techniques. What matters is whether or not you can APPLY the concepts and make however many techniques you know WORK.

Im going to shut up and start listening...you are right on the $$$!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Until the Tracy's Bros started adding techniques and variations, EPAK had 128 techniques + 32 extensions. Somehow this grew to 250 techniques for EPAK and 600 variations for Tracy's. But the core concepts remained the same.

It goes back to my earlier point about how you train. Memorization is required for larger curriculums. This memorization is a Zen method of teaching the concepts: learn the movements properly and the concepts will be learned subconsciously. The alternative is to learn core techniques, learn concepts, and then use the concepts to extend the core techniques.

Either way, it is not how many techniques you learn and it is not how well you understand the concepts behind the techniques. What matters is whether or not you can APPLY the concepts and make however many techniques you know WORK.

And this is a good point! Memorization is definately a big part. But, this also can have a negative effect. If you rely so much on the memorization, there is a good chance that when its time to do a tech., you might not be able to recall which one to do. I have seen this with students before. While doing SD, the students get into a circle or line, and the others come at them with different attacks. 9 times out of 10, the student will just stand there and almost look confused as to what to do. Or they say that they are not sure what to do because they have not learned a tech for that attack yet.

The techs. should be the ingredients for what you are cooking. Rather than try to rely on your memory, you should be reacting. I say to them, when they look at me with that puzzeled look, "Do you know how to block? Do you know how to punch? Do you know how to kick? Do you know how to move? They answer yes to all of these. I then say, "Well, who cares what you do, but do something. Dont just stand there!" Use the tech as a base to create something on your own. Dont just rely on that one tech of the many that there are, to defend yourself.

Mike

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Conceptional learning with no structure is very difficult in the beginning in my opinion; however, there are those who can do it.
The structure is designed to teach principles. If you win the fight
and you didnt know which technique you did with its extension.
so what! The point is you won the fight.

That's not what I meant

I was musing more on the human condition...

Ian.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
No, all the techs are not needed. It would be like saying you need to know every word in the dictionary before carrying on a conversation. What you do need is a little common sense, a few basic technique ideas, and a great big strong punch off the back hand. Only losers demand that a person to quit for not thinking the same lame way they do; so, don't be discouraged by comments from the peanut gallery.
Sean

1. You are correct, we needn't learn all of the techniques in any curriculum in order to defend ourselves. BUT we do need them in order to have a well rounded martial arts education.

2. True, you don't need to learn all of the words in the dictionary in order to carry on a conversation... but the more words a person knows and knows HOW to use, the better they can express their thoughts... the more accurately they can codify their ideas and notions and relate them to others in a way that they can understand. The better a persons grasp and mastery of the english (or any other for that matter) language, the greater their credability and the greater their ability to persuade.
Your analogy cannibalized it's self.

3. You speak of needing only "...a little common sense, a few basic technique ideas, and a great big strong punch off the back hand."
How common is 'common sense' underfire?
It's not. Under extreme duress your 'common sense' takes a left and speeds away and your technique 'ideas' are even further.That's why we train in as many probable scenarios as we can, so that we internalize their solutions from many different angles until we needn't 'think' about them, but let our limbs work things out through the disciplines they have undergone.

Most street fighters have some common sense, technique 'ideas' and good strong punches... so what separates a decent martial artist from a decent street fighter??? I'd hope more than just the title!

SO...
does a fighter "need" ALL of the techniques in order to survive on the streets... NO.
Should a system that teaches one to fight well include a good number of diversified scenarios???
Heck yeah...

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Its a pure kenpo thing us ma's don't seem to grasp; alas, we are lost to the ways of the world, I suppose.

is it just me, or is someone being rude???
snide sarcasm

perhaps it's Kenpo envy...

Your Bro.
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

Its just you. Just kidding I was refering to some other posts on this thread. Fire with fire, you know.

 

[Brother John]

In a wierd mood
the snideness was mine.


later man...
Your Bro.
John

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Now I can cover 8 attacks with one technique, instead of having to learn 8 different techniques with 8 different approaches. Someone likened kenpo to the english language and even proceeded to use mock sentences to illustrate their point.

It was an extreme example of what I wrote in the forst paragraph. I was implying that you can chose at what level you want to be able to communicate (defend yourself), and that you don't need to be as proficient as Shakespeare (Master Parker) to be efficient.

And by the way, I usually fill gaps in my english the same way you describe for five swords, adapting from what I know best (spanish).

If you thought the example was a mock sentence, I'm sorry.

PS Requirements for BB in my school are just above 55. FWIW.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Why didnt
Mr. Parker keep all the varations of this technique in his system?

You are a martial artist , and so, you need to be able to create too. If you'd keep all of the posible variations for a certain attack, then you'll lose focus in the main point. And also, as said wonderfully (IMO) by MJS

Originally posted by MJS

The techs. should be the ingredients for what you are cooking. Rather than try to rely on your memory, you should be reacting. I say to them, when they look at me with that puzzeled look, "Do you know how to block? Do you know how to punch? Do you know how to kick? Do you know how to move? They answer yes to all of these. I then say, "Well, who cares what you do, but do something. Dont just stand there!" Use the tech as a base to create something on your own. Dont just rely on that one tech of the many that there are, to defend yourself.

That's exactly what my instuctor says. DO SOMETHING!

I think you get ideas for SD from the curricula and build muscle memory from the techniques. Plus they illustrate and reinforce the concepts and techniques on which kenpo is based.

My point, if you can get the principles in a lesser number of techniques by doing other drills and some research, ok. But before dropping any technique be sure you don't forget to learn what is imbedded in that technique, and don't forget to pass it along to your students as well.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
You are a martial artist , and so, you need to be able to create too. If you'd keep all of the posible variations for a certain attack, then you'll lose focus in the main point. And also, as said wonderfully (IMO) by MJS

I couldnt agree more! I believe Mr. Parker did want us to think for ourselves.

 

[kkbb]

Would it not be wiser to adapt one defense created for one attack to defend against similar attacks. In other words, a reverse punch done to the head, or chest, or low, would be best dealt with by one single defense....would it not? Don't most people in epak or any other multiple technique system "freeze" when confronted by the same attack done with different variables.... because they have to stop and think about 3 or 4 different techniques taught to them to negate minor variations in the attacks (ie straight punch, different angles)? Or do they "explode" into some "technique" that doesn't look anything like they have learned, and therefore are taking a 50/50 chance that it would work or that they could make it work? And if our instructors want us to "expand" or think outside of the box...why do they bother to teach techniques? Why not just concepts? Let the student put it together?

Take a kid to candy store and he will surely take forever to make up his mind, but take a kid to hardware store that only has one candy machine his decision is easy!

Less techniques ("i'd rather have 6 that work than 24 that don't") in mho is better!

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by kkbb
Would it not be wiser to adapt one defense created for one attack to defend against similar attacks. In other words, a reverse punch done to the head, or chest, or low, would be best dealt with by one single defense....would it not? Don't most people in epak or any other multiple technique system "freeze" when confronted by the same attack done with different variables.... because they have to stop and think about 3 or 4 different techniques taught to them to negate minor variations in the attacks (ie straight punch, different angles)? Or do they "explode" into some "technique" that doesn't look anything like they have learned, and therefore are taking a 50/50 chance that it would work or that they could make it work? And if our instructors want us to "expand" or think outside of the box...why do they bother to teach techniques? Why not just concepts? Let the student put it together?

Take a kid to candy store and he will surely take forever to make up his mind, but take a kid to hardware store that only has one candy machine his decision is easy!

Less techniques ("i'd rather have 6 that work than 24 that don't") in mho is better!

People may freeze in training due to thinking about which defense to use. But in a real situation, when people freeze, they're generally not thinking about anything at all. They're a deer in headlights, not a kid in a candy store

To be a fighter, you only need a handful of techniques (or even only one) and good timing/footwork.

But a good fighter isn't necessarily a good teacher. To be a good teacher, you need more than just what works for you. You need to have options so that if something you do doesn't work for a student, then you can present them with alternatives.

Curriculums (in general) are laid out in such a way that the student learns various options and is able to then determine which works best for him/her.

To look at a curriculum and say, "When I get attack A, I'm going to do defense A. When I get attacked with B, I'm going to do defense B." is a very shallow way of looking at things and isn't what the curriculums are intended to present. They are intended to:
A) present options so the student can, as they evolve, find what works best for them
B) present options so that as the student ages, they don't have to go looking elsewhere to accomodate their aging body's attributes - they just have to review the curriculum and find what works best for them at their current age
C) provide multiple perspectives on the same concept/principle to deepen the understanding of the concept/principle
D) provide a "map to the territory" that the instructor can use as he/she guides students through the actual territory - the map is not the territory

There are probably other things, too, but these are the first ones that come to my mind.

A good fighter doesn't need all of this. A good fighter only needs what works for him/her (though what works may change with age). But training in martial arts isn't (for most people that I know) just about being a good fighter.

Mike

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Thus far, this is the only good explanation I have heard for having an extended curriculum. I totally agree with you, but sometimes I like to play the Devil's Advocate to see if anyone has a good explanation other than," Just Cause that's the way we do it," or "Because that's the way I was taught." Excellent job