You need to ask "what if" like ras...or you suck

[Twin Fist]

to a degree, but for the most part? no.

original method, tum pai, WHKD, Chain fa schools all do the techs differently. for that matter, KSDS (my school) and GM Forbach's people are both original method, but the techniques can be VERY different.

kaju is NOT a technique based system like kenpo. kaju is movement based. so if you move right, no one gives you grief.

that being said, no one is kaju comes out and says "do it like me or you suck"

 

[ATACX GYM]

As someone who has trained with Prof. Ras on a few occasions, I will say this:

Ras is someone who has training in the martial arts, although some of which I cannot verify. But back in the day some of the SKK beaters such as Cerio, Parker, and others had little to no official studio time and lots of “hands on” experience. I would not want to face Prof. Ras on the street!

My understanding is that he would like to elevate the methods and training paradigms of all arts to include those he uses in his gym. Most of us will never have to pressure test our training in the sheer volume or method Prof. Ras does.

I can clearly see several aspects of his training that we should appreciate and consider on our own:

1. Contact Resistance Method (live attacks, weapons to targets, punching through not to target)

2. Emphasis on availability of techniques and not number of known techniques: “quality over quantity”. We see this from the Long Beach/BKF influence of his training.

3. Tailoring: Ras has adapted his training for his own needs and purposes given all “individual” variables.

4. Evaluation of knowledge based on instant data not on theory or guesses: He keeps what works for him. This is expressed though the argument over the “ideal” phase of techniques.

5. Rock-Drop-Lock: His expression of a common theme in mixed martial arts and in other “traditional arts”. Tonight while on the web, I came across a video by Mr. Van Donk about Bujinkan Ninjitsu and the philosophy of technique and training:

“7 Principles of instant defense:
1. Awareness – Mind as protection
2. Distance your body safely
3. Commit yourself to action
4. Do multiple hits for each attack
5. Grab hold and destroy their balance
6. Take them down. Close the Gap
7. Finnish. Subdue or get away”

Some areas in which I can disagree and still be able to glean from his videos:

1. Terminology – Prof. Ras misuses terminology (concepts, techniques, paradigms) and tries to fit squares into round holes to try to make his point. He should try to come up with his own terminology or properly define his terms so that everyone can be on the same page.

2. Ideal-what if- formulation – Prof. Ras is trying to use a concept from EPAK that does not need to apply to the training he offers in his gym. In fact, the continued reference to each of these topics convolutes the issue further. I believe Prof. Ras fits this formula better “see it – drop it – keep it”.

3. Aggressive attitude or Bravado – Due to his position, training, heritage ect…Prof. Ras sees things through his Long Beach lens. Would the conversations here on the internet be different if this lens was removed? I believe so!

This is just my evaluation from some training time and watching the online conversations here on Martial Talk. This observation is entirely my personal view, no harm or offense was intended. “don’t shoot the messenger”. I hope that this will give a “lens” for those who read/watch Prof. Ras online and to be able to glean something valuable to add to their training.

Chris

This is a good post. A few matters of clarification before I'm off to do other stuff:

"My understanding is that he would like to elevate the methods and training paradigms of all arts to include those he uses in his gym. Most of us will never have to pressure test our training in the sheer volume or method Prof. Ras does."--Sandanchris

Not quite sure what you mean by this, Sandanchris, so let me make my position on this matter clear: I wholeheartededly champion functional/Alive training. This means that we as instructors should teach techniques which we have used ourselves extensively on the mat, in real life, or both and that all of our training methods should be geared toward teaching techniques in the way that they are to actually be used in self defense. It is absolutely my belief that there is no lesson that a dysfunctional expression can teach that functional expression won't teach better AND more comprehensively, including things that the dysfunctional technique lacks the scope and depth to even approach because the functional techniques work and the dysfunctional techniques don't work.

I am an adherent of what I was first taught as THE I:3 WAY OF TEACHING but which decades later Matt Thornton called THE I-METHOD, and literally since age 6 I have been a convert to Alive/functional training.

This is THE I-METHOD:

[video=youtube_share;C-g6JTQDWNc]http://youtu.be/C-g6JTQDWNc[/video]


ALIVE TRAINING

[video=youtube_share;H3r-G33oKHc]http://youtu.be/H3r-G33oKHc[/video]

I also absolutely believe that alllll benefits...all mind-body-spirit cultivation, all character development, etc etc...actually comes from the real world, alive, perpetual refinement and elevation of the DOING, EXPERIMENTING WITH AND STUDYING, AND APPLYING THE EXPERIMINTING AND STUDYING WITH MORE DOING of the thing in question. All sublime "lessons" to be taught in whatever technique like Captured Twigs you learn from...DOING,STUDYING, AND APPLYING THE STUDYING AND EXPERIEMENTING WITH MORE DOING Captured Twigs. Basically a combination of The Scientific Method applied to martial arts, the various sports performance sciences, and philosophy [ especially logic ] applied to martial arts. Do that and work it with alot of Alive/Functional stimuli. Alot of times. For your entire martial lifespan.

THE ART?

[video=youtube_share;m_ts8hRKBW0]http://youtu.be/m_ts8hRKBW0[/video]

A POWERFUL FORM OF YOGA

[video=youtube_share;kMAeeeAauEw]http://youtu.be/kMAeeeAauEw[/video]

Matt speaks of this beauty in combat sports. I see it geometrically transcending combat sports in our Traditional Martial Arts and expanding out to areas that aren't really reached or plumbed to any real depth by combat sports.

"2. Emphasis on availability of techniques and not number of known techniques: “quality over quantity”. We see this from the Long Beach/BKF influence of his training"

There is no question that Long Beach, the BKF, Southeast San Diego, Compton, Watts, and other places have had a lasting impact on my perceptions and approach. However, I actually take both a quality AND quantity approach. Sandanchris is absolutely right in that I insist upon the availability of techniques but I insist upon this availability in the sense of immediate universal application. By that I mean this:

When you're attacked or called upon for whatever reason to use your skills? The the skills that you have must meet the challenge that you face. If all you know is...Delayed Sword? And the BG tackles you and pulls a knife? You need to have a Delayed Sword that works in that situation. If all you have is Delayed Sword...and the BG grabs you in a full-nelson while his buddy moves in to work you over with fists? You need to have a Delayed Sword that works there too. If the BG grabs your lapel with one hand and pulls a gun with another? Your Delayed Sword needs to work then, too.

Every other technique and self defense sequence like Delayed Sword [ "sequence" is my own term which I use interchangeably with the CORRECT definition of Ideal Techniques; the definition for Ideal Technique is the specific expression for whatever sequence of techniques--like Delayed Sword--that you as the instructor has crafted for your particular school or gym, which follows the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process method and uses the 3 points of view...The What If&The Formulation Phases and The Equation Formula ] should be tested as functionally rigorously and comprehensively as possible and practical. The result is; every technique is usable in any situation. Depending on the number of techniques and Ideals you have, you could have up to about 154 ways to do one thing and 154 ways to do 154 things. That's an amazing, extremely difficult to predict or defend against arsenal which should give the comprehensively trained Kenpoist a gargantuan advantage over almost anyone else.

What I have essentially done is taken the attack and defense categories in The Web of Knowledge, added more categories to it, combined these with h2h ranges shown in CQC and MMA, and tested my every technique and ATACX GYM IDEAL TECHNIQUE against each and every consideration raised by all of the foregoing. To my knowledge? This matrix I have crafted is unique...although I personally know of various predecessors and precedents to portions of the methods that I use in my ATACX GYM.



"1. Terminology – Prof. Ras misuses terminology (concepts, techniques, paradigms) and tries to fit squares into round holes to try to make his point. He should try to come up with his own terminology or properly define his terms so that everyone can be on the same page."--Sandanchris

I'm not sure if this is correct. I know that I challenge the veracity of various terms used in Kenpo. Maybe that's it. Or maybe Sandanchris would be good enough to show me where I've misused Kenpo terminology concpets paradigms techniques etc. To my knowledge I haven't done such a thing and I certainly haven't meant to. If it's shown that I have? I will straightway make amends.


"2. Ideal-what if- formulation – Prof. Ras is trying to use a concept from EPAK that does not need to apply to the training he offers in his gym. In fact, the continued reference to each of these topics convolutes the issue further. I believe Prof. Ras fits this formula better “see it – drop it – keep it”.--Sandanchris

I actually have a pretty good grasp of this area, Sandanchris. Perhaps you could clarify your meaning further by furnishing examples of your meaning?


"3. Aggressive attitude or Bravado – Due to his position, training, heritage ect…Prof. Ras sees things through his Long Beach lens. Would the conversations here on the internet be different if this lens was removed? I believe so!"--Sandanchris

I think this is true too...but probably regarding different subtopics and topics. I have forthrightly challenged the TRAINING PARADIGM that gave rise to the commonly miscalled Ideal Phase techniques. I have said then and say now that they're dysfunctional. The Ideal Phase techniques themselves aren't innately dysfunctional, but the training paradigm giving rise to them mandates a dysfunctional, highly unrealistic expression.This uncompromising stance of mine has earned me the wrath and flames of many a poster who think that I'm saying that THEY suck, or KENPO sucks or that I'm here to save Kenpo, etc etc.

My forthright challenges have been misinterpreted frequently as aggression and/or bravado. Neither is actually the case, and I have been careful to directly refute this contention whenever it's brought up.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Without "shooting the messenger" here....



It's obvious that Ras has had physical training, but he doesn't appear to have had what I would call an education. He comes across as having learnt a range of sequences of movements, and thinks that equates to different martial arts without understanding why each art does what it does, or doesn't. I mean, the guys talking about how "generally speaking, Judoka don't do jumping kicks, or triple spin kicks", and then goes on about how they'd be better if they had "such a full set of atemi". Are you kidding me? All that does is scream to me that he has no freakin' idea about martial arts themselves, all he can do is put together movements. This is why he can't follow any question I put to him, he simply doesn't have any education relating to it.

[ ATACX GYM'S RESPONSES ARE IN BOLD...]

The entirety of the above is radically untrue and you utterly misconstrue and misunderstand basic statements of mine. At this point? I'm willing to simply concede that we have no common ground and suggest that we agree to disagree and leave further mutual discussion about topics that we disagree on alone.

Yeah, Ras would love everyone to be just like Ras... thing is, most of what he's advocating is already done, typically in better, more structured ways. He's hardly new, unique, innovative, or anything of the kind. And if he'd actually get some education under a real school, as opposed to having learnt everything from his uncle (which is how it all reads... I'd say he's got no actual rank in Judo, for instance [meaning Kodokan], as he gets so much wrong there that it's just terrible, but has been taught "judo" by his uncle. Same with his Iaido claims, same with each different line of his Kempo [Shaolin, American, whatever], with maybe some of his TKD in an actual school), then he could actually a) be good, and b) realize that he's not really doing anything that much different or better than anyone else. As I've said to him, he's a few decades behind me in his understanding.

Ras has repeatedly stated--for more than a year--the exact opposite of your contention, to wit: Ras doesn't want everyone to be just like Ras. I am, however, not at all surprised to see you conflate my insistence that whatever we as martial artists teach to our students we have used and continue to use successfully on the mat, professionally, on the streets or any combination of the above...and we teach our students to use the techniques in the same way that they will fight with them. You are sooo factually off base and wrong here it's...actually typical of my discussions with you. My Judo black belt comes from a Kodokan certified Judo school. Your comments about Judo clearly show you have noooo idea what you're talking about and have never trained in and maybe never even heard of Kosen Judo...but I have done both. I have been told by luminaries like O'Sensei Ogden [ r.i.p. ] and Heyward Nishioka that my Judo skills, balance,strength, explosivity and learning curve are all exceptional. My uncle did NOT teach me Judo. He did and continues to, however, teach me Iaido. As for whether or not you think I'm good? I'm sure it's clear by now that I don't care what your opinion is of me. Indulge yourself in that area however you please. Have fun.



And this is different to others how?



Again, this hardly a new concept, and when he's talking about using the same technique for every different circumstance, he's missed the point. And if he's genuinely after just the ones that work, he's best off just looking at one system, not the mess of 20 that he claims, as he's going in the exact wrong direction for that.
Miscomprehension. Factually incorrect. Just plain wrong. Again. As usual.


Again, this is a very common concept. In fact, I can't think of any art that doesn't encourage such things. Even something as rigid as Iaido allows for personalisation of your performance, based on the length of your sword, and any personal issues you may have.

There is a difference between what an art allegedly espouses and how its practitioners in the main practice.

However his evaluations are often flawed, being based in a false environment (and yes, sparring is a false environment unless you're looking for what works in sparring), as well as missing the point of the way the ideal phase techniques are designed.

Your opinions that my evaluations are often flawed, etc. do not in any way make them flawed. Sparring is an activity which is defined by different people in different ways, and thus the activity changes according to their definition of it. Your definition of sparring isn't mine; however since we never will see video of you...there is no way for any of us to objectively evaluate anything that you do, is there? Quite courageous of you to unleash scathing criticism while ensuring that you never proffer video of yourself doing things your "more correct" way in order to edify us all. Reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt's quote again...


Er, RVD gets a hell of a lot wrong as well, for the record... but that's beside the point. Basically, he's expressing a basic strategy, which is fine, but it's a flawed one for self defence. You don't want to "lock" in self defence (which is apparently what he's focused on...), you want to get away.

It is your opinion that "you don't want to "lock" in self defence (which is apparently what he's focused on...), you want to get away". It is [ a part of ] MY opinion that in self-defense you want to DEFEND YOURSELF SUCCESSFULLY. By whatever means and whatever tools most available. This, to me, strongly suggests that one should have a high combat functional performance wavelength with as broad and as deep a set of skills as possible, inclusive of a solid grasp of all relevant principles, physical fitness to a superior degree, etc etc. But that's just a part of my opinion...

Oh, and "ninjutsu"... sorry, but there's a reason there.



Yeah, I know that video. It's RVD's "Combat Ninjutsu" one... well, I'll put it this way, that video was given to me by my instructor with the words "Here, this is how bad a 10th Dan can be". RVD's list there actually contradicts the very art he's teaching, as well as the basic ideals of self defense in a couple of cases.



Which he's been told.



He uses EPAK terms and concepts, and uses EPAK techniques (which he denigrates) to compare to his "better, more functional" techniques... then when asked what the connection is, he says that he's not teaching EPAK(?!?!) Then why use the terms and do comparisons with EPAK techniques?!?! If he'd just say "hey, I'm teachings ATACX Gym Kempo, here's something we do", that would at least remove that side of things... wouldn't make his techniques magically great, but it'd remove the confusion to a degree.

He does not denigrate EPKK TECHNIQUES, he lambasts the more prevalent dysfunctional training paradigms and methods that gave rise to and perpetuate the most common expression of the so-called Ideal Phase techniques. And news flash...he ALWAYS says he's teaching ATACX GYM KENPO. See? ATACX GYM KENPO IS WRITTEN ON THE TITLE OF EVERY VIDEO. NOT EPAK KENPO.


Possibly.



Look, to be blunt Chris, he needs to be smacked upside the head, hard. Online the only way that can be done is to argue against everything he puts up... but his sense of ego doesn't let him see any criticism as valid. He thanks people for their criticism, then turns around and says "you're completely wrong and ignorant", but can't back it up. He then claims to have "atomically annihilated" their point, if it gets continued. His arguments really do often amount to "I'm great, you all suck, unless you agree with me, in which case you're a shining light of a martial artist", which is how he describes you when you back him up.

You are again massively and habitually incorrect. There are criticisms that I have adhered to. You are just unaware of them. And almost all of yours have been easily disprovably empirically incorrect.

And, bluntly, all you do when you do that is support his egotistical delusions. You rarely actually add anything to the conversation, just say something that supports Ras without being specific in your comments, or (such as in the ATACX Gym Judo thread), after two pages of Ras being shown as not having a clue about Judo, and having no idea about what he's actually showing, with Judoka and BJJ practitioners all pointing out the glaring issues with the technique, and his presentation of it, you come along and say "Very nice, thanks for sharing". I gotta ask, Chris, what did you think that would accomplish? It just looks like you're sucking up to him, for whatever reason. It's not keeping the peace, it's just a comment that shows that you didn't have much understanding of what Ras was showing either.

Your opinion that I have egotistical delusions doesn't mean that I actually have them. Your assessment of the ATACX GYM JUDO thread is also similarly highly flawed, inaccurate, untrue, and...honestly...pretty funny in its dooficity. Let me assure you right now...having met Sandanchris...that Sandanchris is most definitely not a suck up. ESPECIALLY TO ME. He is a man of good standing and good character who wouldn't stoop to such a thing. And since he has actually met me and seen me move and felt my technique? Your opinion about his lack of understanding actually displays YOUR lack of understanding, sir.

I'm not suggesting that you don't come onto his threads and support him, but if there's no point to doing so, why do it?


There is an interesting inference in your quote above that implies that Sandanchris would willy nilly come onto my threads and support me. He would not, sir. If he says something supportive? It's because he sees reason and good cause to do so. If he disagrees with me--which he has ALSO placed on this thread--he does so because he sees reason and good cause to do so,sir. He has met me face to face. We have exchanged techniques. In mere minutes, I have shown his students how to break bear hugs with their Kempo salute and how to combatively apply various techniques that they were just shown minutes before...and to the credit of the foundation that Sandanchris has given them and to the credit of the swift, keen minds of his students? They immediately grasped and performed what I asked of them. In less than five minutes they went from being shown a technique that Sandanchris introduced them to all the way to applying it functionally against real world resistance. That says something about the skills of everyone involved...Sandanchris, his wonderful students, and yours truly


Chris Parker. Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that. I will stay out of the threads that you author, and you reciprocate.

I think I've said all that needs to be said here.

 

[Twin Fist]

dooficity?

and you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

 

[MJS]

This is a good post. A few matters of clarification before I'm off to do other stuff:

"My understanding is that he would like to elevate the methods and training paradigms of all arts to include those he uses in his gym. Most of us will never have to pressure test our training in the sheer volume or method Prof. Ras does."--Sandanchris

Not quite sure what you mean by this, Sandanchris, so let me make my position on this matter clear: I wholeheartededly champion functional/Alive training. This means that we as instructors should teach techniques which we have used ourselves extensively on the mat, in real life, or both and that all of our training methods should be geared toward teaching techniques in the way that they are to actually be used in self defense. It is absolutely my belief that there is no lesson that a dysfunctional expression can teach that functional expression won't teach better AND more comprehensively, including things that the dysfunctional technique lacks the scope and depth to even approach because the functional techniques work and the dysfunctional techniques don't work.

I am an adherent of what I was first taught as THE I:3 WAY OF TEACHING but which decades later Matt Thornton called THE I-METHOD, and literally since age 6 I have been a convert to Alive/functional training.

This is THE I-METHOD:

[video=youtube_share;C-g6JTQDWNc]http://youtu.be/C-g6JTQDWNc[/video]


ALIVE TRAINING

[video=youtube_share;H3r-G33oKHc]http://youtu.be/H3r-G33oKHc[/video]

I also absolutely believe that alllll benefits...all mind-body-spirit cultivation, all character development, etc etc...actually comes from the real world, alive, perpetual refinement and elevation of the DOING, EXPERIMENTING WITH AND STUDYING, AND APPLYING THE EXPERIMINTING AND STUDYING WITH MORE DOING of the thing in question. All sublime "lessons" to be taught in whatever technique like Captured Twigs you learn from...DOING,STUDYING, AND APPLYING THE STUDYING AND EXPERIEMENTING WITH MORE DOING Captured Twigs. Basically a combination of The Scientific Method applied to martial arts, the various sports performance sciences, and philosophy [ especially logic ] applied to martial arts. Do that and work it with alot of Alive/Functional stimuli. Alot of times. For your entire martial lifespan.

THE ART?

[video=youtube_share;m_ts8hRKBW0]http://youtu.be/m_ts8hRKBW0[/video]

A POWERFUL FORM OF YOGA

[video=youtube_share;kMAeeeAauEw]http://youtu.be/kMAeeeAauEw[/video]

Matt speaks of this beauty in combat sports. I see it geometrically transcending combat sports in our Traditional Martial Arts and expanding out to areas that aren't really reached or plumbed to any real depth by combat sports.

"2. Emphasis on availability of techniques and not number of known techniques: “quality over quantity”. We see this from the Long Beach/BKF influence of his training"

There is no question that Long Beach, the BKF, Southeast San Diego, Compton, Watts, and other places have had a lasting impact on my perceptions and approach. However, I actually take both a quality AND quantity approach. Sandanchris is absolutely right in that I insist upon the availability of techniques but I insist upon this availability in the sense of immediate universal application. By that I mean this:

I have no issues with Matt. I've seen alot of his stuff, and I've incorporated some of his ideas into my training. I do agree that its important to have what he mentions, in your training.

When you're attacked or called upon for whatever reason to use your skills? The the skills that you have must meet the challenge that you face. If all you know is...Delayed Sword? And the BG tackles you and pulls a knife? You need to have a Delayed Sword that works in that situation. If all you have is Delayed Sword...and the BG grabs you in a full-nelson while his buddy moves in to work you over with fists? You need to have a Delayed Sword that works there too. If the BG grabs your lapel with one hand and pulls a gun with another? Your Delayed Sword needs to work then, too.

No you don't. Nor do I think that one has to pull yet another tech from the laundry list, to take care of the next problem. Like I've said, this is where the basics come in. If I'm doing DS and something goes south, I simply just adapt to that change. I simply abandon what I'm doing, adjust and move on. I'm not sitting there saying, "Ok, well, I started doing tech A, but it failed, so now lets see....lemme do tech f, which is the 'what if'/'even if' A no longer works. Sorry, IMO, when you're *** is on the line, it'd be crazy to think that someone is going to instantly recall the next best preset tech, before they get their *** kicked. This is why I'm such a stickler of the basics.

Remember my story that I told of when I was teaching a long time ago? Had the class form a circle, 1 person in the middle, I'd call out attacks for the people on the outside. I intentionally gave the student in the middle, an attack that they didn't have a preset defense for. They froze like a deer and told me they didn't know a tech for that attack. I asked if they knew how to block, punch, kick and move, to which they said yes. I said, Good, then do it! My point of this was to show them that they in fact did know what to do. Who gives a crap if they do Attacking Mace, Delayed Sword or any of the other hundreds upon hundreds. My goal is to teach them how to defend themselves, not have to rely on a huge list of stuff, that they're going to forget.

Any time I've done a spontaneous reaction drill with my teacher, it was rare that I ever did a preset tech. Parts of one? Sure, but the full tech? Rare if ever at all. And thats fine, thats not what I was trying to do. I wasn't trying and hoping to pull off one of the many. I was trying to deal with the attack at hand.

 

[MJS]

to a degree, but for the most part? no.

original method, tum pai, WHKD, Chain fa schools all do the techs differently. for that matter, KSDS (my school) and GM Forbach's people are both original method, but the techniques can be VERY different.

kaju is NOT a technique based system like kenpo. kaju is movement based. so if you move right, no one gives you grief.

that being said, no one is kaju comes out and says "do it like me or you suck"

Ok, next question. Kaju obviously has techs. ie: the grab arts, club techs, etc. I assume those are required for promotion? I mean, I'd think students have to know them, but the Kaju folks dont have the huge endless list Kenpo does? Use the base tech as an idea, move right, keep it looking like Kaju and you're good to go?

 

[ATACX GYM]

No you don't. Nor do I think that one has to pull yet another tech from the laundry list, to take care of the next problem. Like I've said, this is where the basics come in. If I'm doing DS and something goes south, I simply just adapt to that change. I simply abandon what I'm doing, adjust and move on. I'm not sitting there saying, "Ok, well, I started doing tech A, but it failed, so now lets see....lemme do tech f, which is the 'what if'/'even if' A no longer works. Sorry, IMO, when you're *** is on the line, it'd be crazy to think that someone is going to instantly recall the next best preset tech, before they get their *** kicked. This is why I'm such a stickler of the basics.

Any time I've done a spontaneous reaction drill with my teacher, it was rare that I ever did a preset tech. Parts of one? Sure, but the full tech? Rare if ever at all. And thats fine, thats not what I was trying to do. I wasn't trying and hoping to pull off one of the many. I was trying to deal with the attack at hand.

Maybe I'm not being as clear as I wish to be here, because I agree with much of your post. What I'm saying specifically is that the so-called Ideal Phase techniques are generally not tested against anything except for the prescribed specific attack that they're to defend against. I haven't met anyone yet who forthrightly stated that they work their DS against the prescribed attack plus everything else too, like I do. There have got to be others who do,I just haven't read about or heard of them.

I completely agree that one should use one's basics and whatever else you need to emerge as unscathed and safe as possible in a self-defense encounter. Imo Delayed Sword is one of those basics.

My point is...whatever rank you're at when you face an assault? You need to have the versatility already ingrained in you--subgrappling escapes strikes weapons parrying standing locks throws sweeps takedowns rolls weapon use multifights whatever--already locked and loaded and ready to go.

 

[Twin Fist]

different branches, and the methods within those branches have thier own requirements for promotion, but yes, as a rule, everyone has required material for promotion. Also as a rule, it isnt a huge list like EPAK or Tracy's

The KSDS branch has few requirements, comparatively, but a higher level of understanding is required of the material for dan rank

there are, in the original method:
14 kata or palama's or pinions
21 punch counters or "tricks"
15 grab arts
13 club counters
15 knife counters
8 2-man counters
6 3-man counters
1 4-man counter
this is the base of the original kajukenbo system

each branch has added to or changed this, but Sijo said he wanted everyone everywhere to include the basics.

 

[Chris Parker]

This is a good post. A few matters of clarification before I'm off to do other stuff:

Of course, Chris basically comes to your defence without actually addressing anything in the thread, and it's a good post... honestly, I'd say it's misplaced loyalty.

"My understanding is that he would like to elevate the methods and training paradigms of all arts to include those he uses in his gym. Most of us will never have to pressure test our training in the sheer volume or method Prof. Ras does."--Sandanchris

Not quite sure what you mean by this, Sandanchris, so let me make my position on this matter clear: I wholeheartededly champion functional/Alive training. This means that we as instructors should teach techniques which we have used ourselves extensively on the mat, in real life, or both and that all of our training methods should be geared toward teaching techniques in the way that they are to actually be used in self defense. It is absolutely my belief that there is no lesson that a dysfunctional expression can teach that functional expression won't teach better AND more comprehensively, including things that the dysfunctional technique lacks the scope and depth to even approach because the functional techniques work and the dysfunctional techniques don't work.

The big problem here (aside from the fact that that's not what "alive" training is about) is that by only teaching techniques that the instructor has experience in using, either on the mat or "in real life" (which seems to be the same thing to you, Ras, as you use them interchangabley...), then all you end up with is instructors teaching only what they can do, or what suits them, rather than what suits the students, which just limits the system. Additionally, who says that the instructor isn't just naturally talented and pulls off things that really shouldn't be taught? This then also leads to the idea that the naturally gifted instructor starts to believe that what they do is better than others, although they're missing many basic aspects... including the structure of what they consider "dysfunctional" techniques. They may be highly functional, just not in the way the naturally talented instructor understands. Hmm.

I am an adherent of what I was first taught as THE I:3 WAY OF TEACHING but which decades later Matt Thornton called THE I-METHOD, and literally since age 6 I have been a convert to Alive/functional training.

You were six. Converted from what?

That aside, Ras, Matt's ideas are far from new. He's just packaged them with a new word. Everything he talks about is just what has been found in martial arts for centuries in different forms, combined with a lack of actual comprehension of what traditional methods are actually about.

This is THE I-METHOD:

[video=youtube_share;C-g6JTQDWNc]http://youtu.be/C-g6JTQDWNc[/video]


ALIVE TRAINING

[video=youtube_share;H3r-G33oKHc]http://youtu.be/H3r-G33oKHc[/video]

As I've indicated (and posted pretty overtly in the past), I'm not really a big fan of Matt's. It's not that I disagree with most of his ideas, it's just that his take on things is desperately flawed and rather limited. So that's not a sale for me.

I also absolutely believe that alllll benefits...all mind-body-spirit cultivation, all character development, etc etc...actually comes from the real world, alive, perpetual refinement and elevation of the DOING, EXPERIMENTING WITH AND STUDYING, AND APPLYING THE EXPERIMINTING AND STUDYING WITH MORE DOING of the thing in question. All sublime "lessons" to be taught in whatever technique like Captured Twigs you learn from...DOING,STUDYING, AND APPLYING THE STUDYING AND EXPERIEMENTING WITH MORE DOING Captured Twigs. Basically a combination of The Scientific Method applied to martial arts, the various sports performance sciences, and philosophy [ especially logic ] applied to martial arts. Do that and work it with alot of Alive/Functional stimuli. Alot of times. For your entire martial lifespan.

Then you're wrong. And if you think that a 'scientific approach/the scientific method' hasn't been applied to martial arts before? Then you're wrong again.

THE ART?

[video=youtube_share;m_ts8hRKBW0]http://youtu.be/m_ts8hRKBW0[/video]

A POWERFUL FORM OF YOGA

[video=youtube_share;kMAeeeAauEw]http://youtu.be/kMAeeeAauEw[/video]

Matt speaks of this beauty in combat sports. I see it geometrically transcending combat sports in our Traditional Martial Arts and expanding out to areas that aren't really reached or plumbed to any real depth by combat sports.

You'll forgive me if I don't see anything of depth in anything you've presented, of course...

"2. Emphasis on availability of techniques and not number of known techniques: “quality over quantity”. We see this from the Long Beach/BKF influence of his training"

There is no question that Long Beach, the BKF, Southeast San Diego, Compton, Watts, and other places have had a lasting impact on my perceptions and approach. However, I actually take both a quality AND quantity approach. Sandanchris is absolutely right in that I insist upon the availability of techniques but I insist upon this availability in the sense of immediate universal application. By that I mean this:

Yes, everywhere you've been is far worse than anywhere anyone else has been... honestly, if pretty much anyone of any note with any credibility in the field of actual self defence and real world combatives goes directly against what you're presenting, I think I'll err on the side of the 99% of people known to be proven beyond their own words. Those that can explain both the how and the why, as it were.

When you're attacked or called upon for whatever reason to use your skills? The the skills that you have must meet the challenge that you face. If all you know is...Delayed Sword? And the BG tackles you and pulls a knife? You need to have a Delayed Sword that works in that situation. If all you have is Delayed Sword...and the BG grabs you in a full-nelson while his buddy moves in to work you over with fists? You need to have a Delayed Sword that works there too. If the BG grabs your lapel with one hand and pulls a gun with another? Your Delayed Sword needs to work then, too.

You cannot give everything needed immediately. And if you think you can, you have no idea of the reality of the situation. Might a new student get attacked in a way that hasn't been covered in class yet? Yep, sure can. But no matter how much you try to give, there is always something you haven't prepared the student for, so don't try to do everything, it's the sign of an amateur who has a fair amount of insecurity about themselves and what they offer. You might as well argue about what they could be attacked with before attending the class, it's not in your control.

Every other technique and self defense sequence like Delayed Sword [ "sequence" is my own term which I use interchangeably with the CORRECT definition of Ideal Techniques; the definition for Ideal Technique is the specific expression for whatever sequence of techniques--like Delayed Sword--that you as the instructor has crafted for your particular school or gym, which follows the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process method and uses the 3 points of view...The What If&The Formulation Phases and The Equation Formula ] should be tested as functionally rigorously and comprehensively as possible and practical. The result is; every technique is usable in any situation. Depending on the number of techniques and Ideals you have, you could have up to about 154 ways to do one thing and 154 ways to do 154 things. That's an amazing, extremely difficult to predict or defend against arsenal which should give the comprehensively trained Kenpoist a gargantuan advantage over almost anyone else.

Then why do all other Kempo practitioners, including those who trained directly under Ed Parker, disagree with your interpretation?

What I have essentially done is taken the attack and defense categories in The Web of Knowledge, added more categories to it, combined these with h2h ranges shown in CQC and MMA, and tested my every technique and ATACX GYM IDEAL TECHNIQUE against each and every consideration raised by all of the foregoing. To my knowledge? This matrix I have crafted is unique...although I personally know of various predecessors and precedents to portions of the methods that I use in my ATACX GYM.

As I said, the sign of an amateur with insecurity issues.

"1. Terminology – Prof. Ras misuses terminology (concepts, techniques, paradigms) and tries to fit squares into round holes to try to make his point. He should try to come up with his own terminology or properly define his terms so that everyone can be on the same page."--Sandanchris

I'm not sure if this is correct. I know that I challenge the veracity of various terms used in Kenpo. Maybe that's it. Or maybe Sandanchris would be good enough to show me where I've misused Kenpo terminology concpets paradigms techniques etc. To my knowledge I haven't done such a thing and I certainly haven't meant to. If it's shown that I have? I will straightway make amends.

Chris doesn't need to, Ras, everyone else already has. You just haven't listened.

"2. Ideal-what if- formulation – Prof. Ras is trying to use a concept from EPAK that does not need to apply to the training he offers in his gym. In fact, the continued reference to each of these topics convolutes the issue further. I believe Prof. Ras fits this formula better “see it – drop it – keep it”.--Sandanchris

I actually have a pretty good grasp of this area, Sandanchris. Perhaps you could clarify your meaning further by furnishing examples of your meaning?

See Doc's comments, Ras. You don't have a good grasp on this area.

"3. Aggressive attitude or Bravado – Due to his position, training, heritage ect…Prof. Ras sees things through his Long Beach lens. Would the conversations here on the internet be different if this lens was removed? I believe so!"--Sandanchris

I think this is true too...but probably regarding different subtopics and topics. I have forthrightly challenged the TRAINING PARADIGM that gave rise to the commonly miscalled Ideal Phase techniques. I have said then and say now that they're dysfunctional. The Ideal Phase techniques themselves aren't innately dysfunctional, but the training paradigm giving rise to them mandates a dysfunctional, highly unrealistic expression.This uncompromising stance of mine has earned me the wrath and flames of many a poster who think that I'm saying that THEY suck, or KENPO sucks or that I'm here to save Kenpo, etc etc.

That's not what Chris was referring to, though. He's referring to your method of communication, the way you obstinately refuse to listen to actual criticism, instead resorting to things like this thread (and the article) in which you state that anyone not doing what you do sucks. And you haven't challenged any "training paradigm" when it all comes down to it.

My forthright challenges have been misinterpreted frequently as aggression and/or bravado. Neither is actually the case, and I have been careful to directly refute this contention whenever it's brought up.

You've backpeddled when you were called on it, that's not the same thing. Hell, Ras, you've been banned because of it.

The entirety of the above is radically untrue and you utterly misconstrue and misunderstand basic statements of mine. At this point? I'm willing to simply concede that we have no common ground and suggest that we agree to disagree and leave further mutual discussion about topics that we disagree on alone.

As you have never once been able to counter a single criticism or statement I have made, instead trying to simply state things are "radically untrue", backing out might have been your best option. But no.

Ras has repeatedly stated--for more than a year--the exact opposite of your contention, to wit: Ras doesn't want everyone to be just like Ras. I am, however, not at all surprised to see you conflate my insistence that whatever we as martial artists teach to our students we have used and continue to use successfully on the mat, professionally, on the streets or any combination of the above...and we teach our students to use the techniques in the same way that they will fight with them. You are sooo factually off base and wrong here it's...actually typical of my discussions with you. My Judo black belt comes from a Kodokan certified Judo school. Your comments about Judo clearly show you have noooo idea what you're talking about and have never trained in and maybe never even heard of Kosen Judo...but I have done both. I have been told by luminaries like O'Sensei Ogden [ r.i.p. ] and Heyward Nishioka that my Judo skills, balance,strength, explosivity and learning curve are all exceptional. My uncle did NOT teach me Judo. He did and continues to, however, teach me Iaido. As for whether or not you think I'm good? I'm sure it's clear by now that I don't care what your opinion is of me. Indulge yourself in that area however you please. Have fun.

Hang on, haven't you just suggested we don't further engage in discussion, as you're not enjoying it? Then you continue with the rest of the post? And talking about yourself in the third person is just so endearing...

As for the rest... seriously, get over yourself. Of course I've heard of Koden Judo, it's high school Judo (well, a ruleset designed for high school players), and all other Judoka made the same comments I did. As far as your black belt coming from "a Kodokan school"? Huh? That's in Japan, mate. Did you go to Japan to get your Shodan? The comments made were that what you presented as Judo just wasn't. And if you couldn't see that, then that just shows that your education is desperately flawed or incomplete.

Miscomprehension. Factually incorrect. Just plain wrong. Again. As usual.

That's not an argument, Ras. Mainly as I offered an opinion, which is shared by pretty much anyone who knows anything about this topic, so arguing that it's "factually incorrect" is not even understanding how to make an argument in the first place. If you're going to come up against someone like me in the future, learn to argue.

There is a difference between what an art allegedly espouses and how its practitioners in the main practice.

What is that supposed to mean? It sounds like you're trying to argue with me without actually saying anything....

Your opinions that my evaluations are often flawed, etc. do not in any way make them flawed. Sparring is an activity which is defined by different people in different ways, and thus the activity changes according to their definition of it. Your definition of sparring isn't mine; however since we never will see video of you...there is no way for any of us to objectively evaluate anything that you do, is there? Quite courageous of you to unleash scathing criticism while ensuring that you never proffer video of yourself doing things your "more correct" way in order to edify us all. Reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt's quote again...

Except that I gave quite detailed critiques as to what was flawed in your evaluations and methods, Ras. Video wasn't needed. And your Roosevelt quote was way out of context, for the record.

It is your opinion that "you don't want to "lock" in self defence (which is apparently what he's focused on...), you want to get away". It is [ a part of ] MY opinion that in self-defense you want to DEFEND YOURSELF SUCCESSFULLY. By whatever means and whatever tools most available. This, to me, strongly suggests that one should have a high combat functional performance wavelength with as broad and as deep a set of skills as possible, inclusive of a solid grasp of all relevant principles, physical fitness to a superior degree, etc etc. But that's just a part of my opinion...

So no actual argument then?

He does not denigrate EPKK TECHNIQUES, he lambasts the more prevalent dysfunctional training paradigms and methods that gave rise to and perpetuate the most common expression of the so-called Ideal Phase techniques. And news flash...he ALWAYS says he's teaching ATACX GYM KENPO. See? ATACX GYM KENPO IS WRITTEN ON THE TITLE OF EVERY VIDEO. NOT EPAK KENPO.

Except you use the EPAK terminology, technique names etc, and often start with the EPAK form, then proceed to go on to demonstrate your "improved" version... and when called on your lack of understanding of the actual EPAK form, you have this "I wasn't showing EPAK, I was showing ATACX GYM Kempo..." uh, no, you were showing EPAK first. No sale.

You are again massively and habitually incorrect. There are criticisms that I have adhered to. You are just unaware of them. And almost all of yours have been easily disprovably empirically incorrect.

"Massively and habitually incorrect? Easily disprovably empirically incorrect?" Are you kidding me? This form of hyperbole is found when there is no argument, Ras. And you have never once managed to even counter one of my criticisms even slightly, let alone to the degree that you seem convinced that you have.

Your opinion that I have egotistical delusions doesn't mean that I actually have them. Your assessment of the ATACX GYM JUDO thread is also similarly highly flawed, inaccurate, untrue, and...honestly...pretty funny in its dooficity. Let me assure you right now...having met Sandanchris...that Sandanchris is most definitely not a suck up. ESPECIALLY TO ME. He is a man of good standing and good character who wouldn't stoop to such a thing. And since he has actually met me and seen me move and felt my technique? Your opinion about his lack of understanding actually displays YOUR lack of understanding, sir.

For crying out loud, Ras, everyone on your "Judo" thread said the same thing. It wasn't Judo, it wasn't BJJ, it was technically very flawed, and wasn't anything like what you presented it as being. Chris coming on and saying it was "very nice" in the face of that shows a lack of understanding of what Judo is. So, no.

There is an interesting inference in your quote above that implies that Sandanchris would willy nilly come onto my threads and support me. He would not, sir. If he says something supportive? It's because he sees reason and good cause to do so. If he disagrees with me--which he has ALSO placed on this thread--he does so because he sees reason and good cause to do so,sir. He has met me face to face. We have exchanged techniques. In mere minutes, I have shown his students how to break bear hugs with their Kempo salute and how to combatively apply various techniques that they were just shown minutes before...and to the credit of the foundation that Sandanchris has given them and to the credit of the swift, keen minds of his students? They immediately grasped and performed what I asked of them. In less than five minutes they went from being shown a technique that Sandanchris introduced them to all the way to applying it functionally against real world resistance. That says something about the skills of everyone involved...Sandanchris, his wonderful students, and yours truly

Please. This post is about a response to another of Chris' posts that serve no purpose other than to rush to your defence.

Chris Parker. Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that. I will stay out of the threads that you author, and you reciprocate.

You're not here anymore, so this is kinda moot, but for the record, my immediate response to this was: no.

Firstly, I don't start threads, so your offer to avoid threads I started has the same weight as you saying that you won't post on days that have an "X" in them. Next, if you're putting bad material out there for criticism, I'm going to pull them apart. You don't get a free ride because you don't like the criticism and can't answer it. The best you could have done is put me on ignore, but that really wouldn't have stopped me from posting and pointing out flaws in each and every video you posted should I have wanted to.

I think I've said all that needs to be said here.

I don't. But that's moot now as well, really.

Maybe I'm not being as clear as I wish to be here, because I agree with much of your post. What I'm saying specifically is that the so-called Ideal Phase techniques are generally not tested against anything except for the prescribed specific attack that they're to defend against. I haven't met anyone yet who forthrightly stated that they work their DS against the prescribed attack plus everything else too, like I do. There have got to be others who do,I just haven't read about or heard of them.

I completely agree that one should use one's basics and whatever else you need to emerge as unscathed and safe as possible in a self-defense encounter. Imo Delayed Sword is one of those basics.

My point is...whatever rank you're at when you face an assault? You need to have the versatility already ingrained in you--subgrappling escapes strikes weapons parrying standing locks throws sweeps takedowns rolls weapon use multifights whatever--already locked and loaded and ready to go.

And once again:

You cannot give everything needed immediately. And if you think you can, you have no idea of the reality of the situation. Might a new student get attacked in a way that hasn't been covered in class yet? Yep, sure can. But no matter how much you try to give, there is always something you haven't prepared the student for, so don't try to do everything, it's the sign of an amateur who has a fair amount of insecurity about themselves and what they offer. You might as well argue about what they could be attacked with before attending the class, it's not in your control.

 

[oaktree]

Is there a reason on why Ras was banned? Despite his view point and the bit of heated exchanges here I thought he at least was passionate about his art and kept things interesting.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'll let the moderation team comment if they want, but yes, there was a reason he was banned. And no, it wasn't from me reporting him.

 

[Sukerkin]

Because even malefactors have the right not to be 'shamed' further after they have earned a reprimand or disciplinary action, that's not really a question that will be answered in an open forum, Oaktree. As I am not a Moderator any more, I have not been privy to the discussions on this one but be assured that bans are hard earned here at MT so it was not for something trivial.

 

[MJS]

Is there a reason on why Ras was banned? Despite his view point and the bit of heated exchanges here I thought he at least was passionate about his art and kept things interesting.

In a nutshell, a rule violation, one that he was spoken to in the past. Thats all I'm saying.

 

[Hand Sword]

Hmmm.... a whole thread about martial artists arguing methods... what has it all come to? I say, let's go back to the time when the arguing was settled by dojo wars, fists, feet, blood, etc... As Conan put it "Enough Talk!" But always remember...never, ever, talk about fight club! :wink1:

 

[Hand Sword]

Seriously, I like points of this debate on both sides. As a street kid back in the day, I can always appreciate the need to develop a more realistic scenario for training. Lord knows, to quote Attack "there was many a time" that I questioned things as a young punk and applaud his enthusiasm. However, what bugged me about his posts was the presupposition of his arguments. His view of the real attacks I did find pretty acurate as I have seen and participated (on both ends) in my experience. The only issue is the "yapping" mentioned in the videos and explanation. Of course, if you're "yapping" there is a huge opportunity for a friend to get involved from behind with a punch to the back of the head, reach around, etc.... However, being a martial artist, a generation X'er from the city, who says reality for us was "yapping" in the club or wherever? Reality, in a situation where many are around including the other's "homies" was, for us "it being on from jump!" Once it jumped off that was it--action-- not a "yap fest" as was mentioned. What happened to awareness, which serious practitioners work on? Taking action or preventing it in the first place is the key.

Another issue was attack's follow ups of after you've been stunned and the "right way" to do the techniques. Again, I like the explanation and ideas presented. The issue is with getting "your bell rung." Once stunned from shots to the end or attacked from behind suddenly (a sucker shot), you are unlikeliy to get your bearings or resort to training. The subconscious part of you mind takes over and one cover's up. In addition, let's say you could turn in or away as mentioned and follow up, there isn't likely to be any power or accuracy levels that would overwhelm the attacker. I've seen many get whacked like was mentioned and get into it. As an outsider's view, even with big monters, there was little power or strength once stunned. As for techniques, they are less likely to be pulled off until you can clear your head and get back into the fight. Until then, it's all instinct.