Are all these techs needed?

[rmcrobertson]

I agree with Mr. Castro.

Eliminate what you don't use well, after you've learned a martial arts systems, by all means. "Simplify, simplify," is always a good rule.

But don't confuse what you need or don't need with what students need. As I may have mentioned a time or two, when you go ripping the wiring out of the system of kenpo, you are making it impossible for students to get to where you are. With rare exceptions, students simply have to have an organized teaching structure.

They're dunderheads like me, in other words, and at a mere twelve years in I am nowhere near ready to start formally discarding. (Though at times I suspect this gets handled by a simple avoidance of practice...) And so what if Bruce Lee went faster? He was a bit of a genius, and he died much, much younger than his instructors, and I simply don't believe he was a good teacher...in fact, based on absolutely nothing, I will bet a shiny new penny that Mr. Inosanto is far better in this regard.

I might add--just to be difficult--that a) some of the discarding may still take place too soon and too facilely for even instructors' progress; b) some of the curriculum seems to me to confront us with issues that we would rather not be confronted--so, throwing things out of the system can at times become a way to duck out on progress.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
What about having one technique that works for both a Right roundhouse or a Right straight punch, that would be a start? How many times have you seen a line held up because the Attackee tells the Attacker that they attacked wrong? Or they have to sit there and think,"Hmmm.... If its a roundhouse I do this, but if it's straight I do this."

Shouldn't you (generic YOU of course) be teaching your students to be able to work one technique off of both variables? Just a thought from a lowly Kenpo Guy.

Well, first, it's better that they get over the freeze in training than in reality

Second, they should be taught to move. Period. If they move, their body will do something.

What you're talking about has more to do with a young mindset (the guy freezing up in the technique line) than with faulty teaching.

A young mindset thinks in terms of "right" and "wrong" (in relation to the technique performed). As one progresses, it moves away from that. If I move and don't get hit, then I didn't do anything "wrong." If I move, don't get hit, and launch my own attack, then I've definitely done something "right." Whether it was a specific technique or not is largely irrelevant. Obviously, if I'm trying to train a specific technique, then I want to try to do that technique. But if I'm doing freestyle defenses, then there is no "right" or "wrong."

That's the way I perceive it, anyway. Though I may not be explaining it very well. But if we keep hashing through it, I'm sure I'll eventually find a way to explain it adequately

Mike

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I agree with Mr. Castro.

Eliminate what you don't use well, after you've learned a martial arts systems, by all means. "Simplify, simplify," is always a good rule.

But don't confuse what you need or don't need with what students need. As I may have mentioned a time or two, when you go ripping the wiring out of the system of kenpo, you are making it impossible for students to get to where you are.

This whole I idea about eliminating to simplify, but keep things for your students is interesting. After 5, 10, or 20 years at a system if you cant get something to work, how can we ever expect our students to be able to do it? Second thing that comes to mind is
why should it take 5, 10, or 20 years to make things work? This is
not very practical in my opinion. I think everyone would agree that
economy of motion is a logical idea in Kenpo, but why shouldnt economy apply to the learning process?

For those who say you must learn the entire web of knowledge; including the extensions of the techniques, to be able to defend yourself, then Id say the way you are not being very logical.
Worse I feel sorry for your students.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Fastmover
This whole I idea about eliminating to simplify, but keep things for your students is interesting. After 5, 10, or 20 years at a system if you cant get something to work, how can we ever expect our students to be able to do it?

Simple. A given technique may never work for me because of my specific physical attributes. But it may work just fine for a student with different attributes.

It doesn't take 5, 10 + years to make anything work at a basic level. As a friend of mine put it, "We spend about 6 months learning to deal with 90% of the population. The next 5 - 10 years are spent learning to deal with the next 9%. And we spend the rest of our lives learning to deal with that final 1%."

Mike

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by pesilat
Simple.
It doesn't take 5, 10 + years to make anything work at a basic level. As a friend of mine put it, "We spend about 6 months learning to deal with 90% of the population. The next 5 - 10 years are spent learning to deal with the next 9%. And we spend the rest of our lives learning to deal with that final 1%."

Mike

Are you saying that we learn 90% of the Kenpo system in the
first 6 months of training? There may very well be some out
there that present the Kenpo system in this fashion. I just
wanted to be be clear that I was understanding what you
were saying.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, fella, I haven't found any of the techniques yet that don't work. My understanding of them may not work--but I go ask Clyde or Mr. Tatum, scream a little in the course of learning why it works, and then add what I learned to my repertoire as best I can.

Second off, what's not logical is giving students unrealistic ideas about their fighting abilities based on a few months of training. But I've remarked on this previously, as others have, so...

Third--it strikes me as very odd that we would want to edit kenpo for our students, rather than teaching them to the point that they can edit. Personally, I don't feel qualified, after only eleven-twelve years...

Fourth--ya wants pure efficiency, well, as Mr. Parker remarked, get a gun. You may be able to learn without the techniques, though I doubt it. But I was not, and I suspect that most others aren't, either.

I guess you'll have to check with my students about whether you should feel sorry for them. Personally, I try to avoid passing judgment on the abilities of people I don't know and have never seen, but hey. That's just me.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by pesilat
People may freeze in training due to thinking about which defense to use. But in a real situation, when people freeze, they're generally not thinking about anything at all. They're a deer in headlights, not a kid in a candy store

To look at a curriculum and say, "When I get attack A, I'm going to do defense A. When I get attacked with B, I'm going to do defense B." is a very shallow way of looking at things and isn't what the curriculums are intended to present. Mike

That's exactly it. We aren't meant to "Choose" a technique to use or respond with... just to respond. We've put our bodies through countless repetitions of many different scenarios and have drilled RELENTLESSLY on the BASICS ((!!!!)) and then we let our bodies flow with what they know. (hey...I'm poetic)

You "choose"
you lose.

Your Brother
John

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Are you saying that we learn 90% of the Kenpo system in the
first 6 months of training?

Nope. Not at all. I'm saying that what is learned in the first 6 months (provided it's trained hard and developed well) is all that's needed to beat 90% of the people that you're likely to encounter in a fight.

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

That one of the most important ingredients is "self confidence". In the first several months of training most receive the "basics" to most systems and have the "movements" if applied with proper zeal and attitude will be more than effective in the street.

The continual training for years only adds insurance to the already learned material plus continual upgrades and little shortcuts. It "sets in" the material so as to become extemporaneous.

To say a student "needs" all the (in our case) 154 techniques and extensions and forms and sets to be able to defend him/herself is pure poppycock! I know of several individuals (including myself) that have had altercations during the colored belt or brown belt years and have faired just fine.

Now if you have a studio and are teaching a system, it is more than necessary to have this material under your hat, in the instance some student stays long enough to learn that far up the system! There are many reason for the extended material .... and not all self defense oriented.

:asian:

 

[kkbb]

How can we efficiently practice 154 techniques and extensions, forms etc....? Almost impossible..right? Most people workout 2 days a week... where can they find the time? SO, to legitimize the 154 ++++ what we say is that the practicing of techniques is to learn concepts...the movements... etc... which we know are all reletively the same in the techniques... so that we can taylor to our own specific selves in the event that we need them. BUT,..what if we did less techniques...say 40 (that cover same type attacks).... and practiced them more often. Would we not become more efficient? Tayloring is still an option.... efficiency would be increased... along with effectiveness!

 

[Michael Billings]

Then you do that. There are types of Motion found in extensions that are not in any of the base techniques. I just had an eye opening weekend doing Black Belt extensions with about 48 other advanced students in the class. We all recognized that any extension, per se, will not be completed if we are accurate, explosive and hit with the requisite power ... but pieces of the extensions may be found useful as we articulate our self-defense paradigm. More is not always better - I am assuming that is your point ... just as another homily "Which had you rather have, quality or quantity?", is part of your arguement.

Hey, you don't want 'em, don't learn them. Realize some of us want them, train them hard, and bet dollars to dounuts that we can make them work. Talk about "Watering down the system." Nobody has to do anything they don't want, just look on the internet and you can buy your Black Belt ... cheap! At least as compared to the years of tuition, sweat and blood it can cost. You devalue something you do not chose to learn, or have difficulty executing, otherwise you would see the inherent value of the extensions and all the techniques.

Think of "possible" solutions.

Think of the long run in training - not quick mastery of self defense, but a lifetime in the Art (you don't want it, fine. But do not be judgemental of those of us who have done it for decades.)

You want to bounce from system to system ... FINE, and more power to you. You just have a different value than I do. Kenpo has a lifetimes worth of knowledge and work available for anyone interested.

Good luck on your journey, while I go on mine.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Then you do that. There are types of Motion found in extensions that are not in any of the base techniques. I just had an eye opening weekend doing Black Belt extensions with about 48 other advanced students in the class. We all recognized that any extension, per se, will not be completed if we are accurate, explosive and hit with the requisite power ... but pieces of the extensions may be found useful as we articulate our self-defense paradigm. More is not always better - I am assuming that is your point ... just as another homily "Which had you rather have, quality or quantity?", is part of your arguement.

Hey, you don't want 'em, don't learn them. Realize some of us want them, train them hard, and bet dollars to dounuts that we can make them work. Talk about "Watering down the system." Nobody has to do anything they don't want, just look on the internet and you can buy your Black Belt ... cheap! At least as compared to the years of tuition, sweat and blood it can cost. You devalue something you do not chose to learn, or have difficulty executing, otherwise you would see the inherent value of the extensions and all the techniques.

Think of "possible" solutions.

Think of the long run in training - not quick mastery of self defense, but a lifetime in the Art (you don't want it, fine. But do not be judgemental of those of us who have done it for decades.)

You want to bounce from system to system ... FINE, and more power to you. You just have a different value than I do. Kenpo has a lifetimes worth of knowledge and work available for anyone interested.

Good luck on your journey, while I go on mine.

sorry I don't want to lose all my donuts. The bet is off.

 

[Michael Billings]

All I wanted was an excuse to get off Atkins. Boy I was craving those dounuts.

Have a good one!

 

[don bohrer]

Were they Krispy Kream donuts?

Everyone keeps telling how good those donuts are supposed to be...

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by don bohrer
Were they Krispy Kream donuts?

Everyone keeps telling how good those donuts are supposed to be...

Krispy Kreme donuts are to other donuts what Hagen Daaz is to other ice cream

But you have to get them warm. If they're cold (i.e.: what you can find at gas stations and stuff), they're good - still above average. But when they're warm, straight off the conveyor belt, then, IMO, there's not a better donut out there.

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kkbb
How can we efficiently practice 154 techniques and extensions, forms etc....?
Almost impossible..right?

Where there is a WILL.......... there IS a way.

No, not impossible..... wrong.

I guess it all depends on your commitment and understanding of the system.


:asian:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by pineapple head
I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?

Gary.

Good point! If you have 50 different ways to block a punch, when it acutally comes down to it, are you going to stand there thinking, "Ok, which one of the 50 am I going to do?" Or, are you going to just react? Hopefully, you'll just react, but I've seen alot of people getting too wrapped up in memorizing all the techs. and then while doing them against someone in training, they stand there looking like, "What the hell do I do?" Rather than think, just react!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else. I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I dont think it has anything to do with liking or not liking something. It has to do with feeling that you are capable of reacting and not thinking about the many different choices that you have. Who is going to have time to think?

Just because something works for one person, does not mean that its going to work for everybody. We all have our own way of learning and doing things. Rather than tell someone to shut up, dont you think that offering a helpfull suggestion might be a little better?????

 

[Touch Of Death]

Wow, one hundred and fifty four Master Keys! What did master key mean again?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
Rather than tell someone to shut up, dont you think that offering a helpfull suggestion might be a little better?????

NOPE! Not when it's impossible anymore to post a darned thing
in here without you or OFK coming in and fargin talking about how
cross training is the bomb, IMPLY that those that don't cross train
are poor depraved idiots, and imply that kenpo is some sort of
crappy art. Now there's a TON of people that have studied more
arts than you ever will, who are HIGH ranking seniors in kenpo.
Their claim is that kenpo is the most complete system out there.
I'll take their word for it over yours anyday! You'll earn no respect
for you, or your opinions when you're as rude as you have been.

Originally posted by MJS
Well, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions. Fortunately, there are others that dont think like that!

"Fortunately" ??? What's that all about???

Buuuut, I'm sure you just want to save up poor happless
dumbasses, right?

I'll tell ya one thing I do know for sure .. the kenpo forum here
USED TO kick some major butt, until you and your cronies came
along and poisoned every single fargin thread with your gibberish.

Hmmmm, should I listen to MJS, OFK, or Martin Wheeler, Huk Planas, Steven LaBounty, Sascha Williams, Ed Parker, Lee Wedlake?? Decisions, decisions.