Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[geezer]

Master Wong has really grown on me over time.... I kinda like the guy....

Yeah, Wong is really entertaining, and he has some good ideas. And what you've been saying about karate and WC is worth considering. My WC is very different than the Shotokan taught down the street. But IMO there is absolutely a bridge between WC and old Okinawan Karate going all the way back to Yong Chun Bai He. And when taken to a very high level there are similarities. But don't tell anybody I said this. It's not a popular idea in many circles.

....Oh wait. This is a public forum. Well, now I've stepped in it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Normally I'm not a fan of "Master Wong" but something like this approach could work, especially if you are also good in the clinch and at grappling. It kind of reminds me of John (Kung fu Wang) Wang's "Rhino" or "Big Fist" entry. I'd like to get his opinion on this.

Sifu Wong is a little bit much on the dramatic.
I have some of his training video material.

I think there is better material out there.

There is jma karate which is nothing like solid WC.
This is the type of Karate that about everbody thinks of.

Then you got the old oki stuff that is cma based... and the further you go back the more cma it gets.
Uechi-Ryu was brought back and was 3 pangainoon kata/forms.
Goju_ryu totally is internal like WC. But I am seeing many WC heading to the hardside... wing chun is a hard soft.

 

[TSDTexan]

Sifu Wong is a little bit much on the dramatic.
I have some of his training video material.

I think there is better material out there.

There is jma karate which is nothing like solid WC.
This is the type of Karate that about everbody thinks of.

Then you got the old oki stuff that is cma based... and the further you go back the more cma it gets.
Uechi-Ryu was brought back and was 3 pangainoon kata/forms.
Goju_ryu totally is internal like WC. But I am seeing many WC heading to the hardside... wing chun is a hard soft.

I find my comment insufficient.
The primarty or the fundamental difference boils down to the method of generating power. And what is done to deal with incoming energy / strike from an attacker.

The externalists see the body as the sum of its parts, cultivating the individual components into weapons through training such as iron palm/fist, strength and stamina training for muscles. And seemingly prefer to use force against force.

The soft style internalists generate power from the center of balance (dan tien), making use of the rotation and explosive energy of the body as a whole. And they direct large amounts of time and energy into body awareness, breathing, neigung and chi gung. They prefer to channel and redirect the attacker's energy aganist himself.


Seemingly or on a surface level, any martial art is on a continuum, and can be as hard or soft as the practioner does it.

But Qi/Ki/Chi is often used as an explanation in external as well as internal arts.
So to help be more specific about internalist/softies

The Neijia mailing list, which was the vehicle created by Mike Sigman in the late 1990s to promote serious development of the internal martial arts, defined the internal martial arts to be those that respected the six harmonies (Sigman 2012a, 2012b).

The list followed the classical definition of the six harmonies due to (Dai Longbang1750), a master of Xingyi:

External Harmonies

1. The hands harmonize with the feets.
2. The hips harmonize with the shoulders.
3. The elbows harmonize with the knees.

Internal Harmonies

1. The heart harmonizes with the intention.
2. The intention harmonizes with the Chi.
3. The Chi harmonizes with the movement.

For a good introduction into 6harmonies read
Internal Strength: Silk Reeling, aka Six Harmonies Movement

There are wing chun systems that ignore these things and some that dont ignore it.
But too many WC exponents don't have a handle on what makes them hard or soft. As a result, more are heading to what JMA Tag Karate is like as WC gains momentum and popularity.


Also... I have been following up on a translational miscommunication by us westerners of the terms "internal and external".

There is some evidence to indicate these terms were used to indicate foreign or domestic martial arts in China.
Home grown Taoist vs Import Shaolin etc.

Wing Chun was started as and external, but the Red Boat Era saw a lot of MMA like mixing in and stealing of technical and strategic stuff from other CMA arts moving it to the middle between Internal and external or Foreign Domestic art..

 

[Xue Sheng]

\
If you say so....

Yes, yes I do, because on the topic of Wing Chun, you are clueless, therefore not to be taken seriously

Putting words in my mouth.... never said that.

How on earth is that putting words in your mouth. You apparently have a comprehension issue going on...or you are intentionally doing this and therefore fit the definition of a troll....just another reason to not take you seriously

Oh, and your experience speaks for all CMA schools.... Your first response fits yourself.

Well if you are talking "Traditional" Chinese martial arts...then yes I am speaking for all CMA schools

I know more about "Traditional" Chinese martial arts school and have trained at more "traditional" schools and have been training in martial arts probably longer than you have been alive...or darn close to it..... more reasons to not take you seriously junior
So you are clueless....and not to be taken seriously......deal with it

 

[Xue Sheng]

\
Cartoons. The mentality of your student population? Right on....
\
Of course cartoons is better than using colored belts... an improvement your improvement over those other western schools....

You got that wrong too, it's not a cartoon... and where did I ever say that you should not you colored belts, what I said was that there are no colored belts in traditional marital arts, thereby showing all who read this thread how wrong you are and how little you know about the topic

You're just another of the "know nothing troll infestation" that is infecting MT these days who liked to act like an expert on things they know nothing about and when your called on it you either deny or get insulting or try and redirect....again proving you are not to be taken seriously

 

[yak sao]

I think I prefer the tortilla cat in case you're keeping score.

 

[wckf92]

\
Brilliant. Do you do any thing other than find fault?
\
EDIT: What, no cartoon?
EDIT2: ...or read half the sentence...?

Oh FFS...WTF are you even talking about??? Do you have comprehension issues or are you just on here to show your high level of skill with the " \ " key?

 

[geezer]

I think I prefer the tortilla cat in case you're keeping score.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts don't use pancakes or tortillas. They use those mushu crepes like you get at the Chinese carry-out. I couldn't find a picture of a Panda with a crepe on its head.


So, here's the best I could come up with. The seal of a Chinese McDojo ...er make that a McKwoon:

Does that say gourmet? Really? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Or maybe go out for lunch.... Just tell 'em I'm out to lunch. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ !

 

[Xue Sheng]

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts don't use pancakes or tortillas. They use those mushu crepes like you get at the Chinese carry-out. I couldn't find a picture of a Panda with a crepe on its head.


So, here's the best I could come up with. The seal of a Chinese McDojo ...er make that a McKwoon:

View attachment 19596

Does that say gourmet? Really? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Or maybe go out for lunch.... Just tell 'em I'm out to lunch. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ !

oh man...thanks.....now you got me thinking about scallion pancakes.... now I'm hungry.... and I don't have any in the house......DARN IT!!!

 

[ShortBridge]

Most of what is in the shared Applied Wing Chun video represents an aspect of fairly typical/traditional Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun training. It is not the entirety of how the lineage is taught. It appears that this particular school also teaches some kickboxing, MMA and kids classes and there is some evidence of that in the video, but most of the the drills are consistent with Duncan Leung Wing Chun. There is not legitimate question as to the providence of Sifu Leung's Wing Chun, that I've ever heard from within the broader Wing Chun community and I assure you that the principles are in tact, though they may not be visibly evident in these clips.

Duncan does prefer some harder training with pads and repeating patterns than some other families and that may not be right for everyone. The authenticity of it doesn't often come into question among the centrist Wing Chun branches. I realize that everyone is reacting to a YouTube clip and this is a good reason for traditional schools not to put their stuff on YouTube, but I wanted to share my familiarity with this type of training for anyone still interested in the original post.

I would also disagree that "Applied Wing Chun is almost Karate". I occasionally train with some Gojo Ryu players and while I respect what they do and can see some similarities (between any two things, really), I find them quite different.

I have no personal familiarity with this particular school.

 

[wckf92]

Most of what is in the shared Applied Wing Chun video represents an aspect of fairly typical/traditional Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun training. It is not the entirety of how the lineage is taught. It appears that this particular school also teaches some kickboxing, MMA and kids classes and there is some evidence of that in the video, but most of the the drills are consistent with Duncan Leung Wing Chun. There is not legitimate question as to the providence of Sifu Leung's Wing Chun, that I've ever heard from within the broader Wing Chun community and I assure you that the principles are in tact, though they may not be visibly evident in these clips.

Duncan does prefer some harder training with pads and repeating patterns than some other families and that may not be right for everyone. The authenticity of it doesn't often come into question among the centrist Wing Chun branches. I realize that everyone is reacting to a YouTube clip and this is a good reason for traditional schools not to put their stuff on YouTube, but I wanted to share my familiarity with this type of training for anyone still interested in the original post.

I would also disagree that "Applied Wing Chun is almost Karate". I occasionally train with some Gojo Ryu players and while I respect what they do and can see some similarities (between any two things, really), I find them quite different.

I have no personal familiarity with this particular school.

Awesome post Shortbridge!

 

[ShotoNoob]

You got that wrong too, it's not a cartoon... and where did I ever say that you should not you colored belts, what I said was that there are no colored belts in traditional marital arts, thereby showing all who read this thread how wrong you are and how little you know about the topic

You're just another of the "know nothing troll infestation" that is infecting MT these days who liked to act like an expert on things they know nothing about and when your called on it you either deny or get insulting or try and redirect....again proving you are not to be taken seriously

\
Look @ your post... the shoe fits....

 

[Xue Sheng]

\
Look @ your post... the shoe fits....

Yup, you're a troll.....maybe you will understand better if I add
\
And you are not worth wasting my time on any longer junior
\

 

[Chris Parker]

No. It simply means to fix a distance.

Hmm, I've never come across anything like that as a definition of kime before…

"Kime" (決め) comes from "kimeru", and basically means "to decide" (Judo's Kime no Kata are the "forms of decision/decisive action")… I suppose it could be applied to deciding upon/fixing a distance… but again, not something I've ever come across before.

There shouldn't be any tension because there is no opposed muscles working against each other. "Braking, while under power".

Kime is often used to refer to "focus, precision (of action), a decisive movement", and the "snapping" of the gi is often seen as an indication of proper kime… as in many (most) arts, this is achieved by a sudden application of tension throughout the striking limb at the moment of impact… so there should absolutely be tension at that point (just not in the surrounding moments). In sword arts, we refer to this as te no uchi (pretty literally: inside the hands), and it's essential if you want to be able to transfer power without losing your weapon. In unarmed striking arts, it's a similar idea… the tension is to transfer power while not damaging yourself at the same time.

With regard to striking, tension can only happen when you have opposing muscle or tendon groups both contracting at the same time. Tension = Tug of war.

Well, yeah, that's how tension is achieved in the body… that doesn't mean that it isn't applied…

Kime is to mentally decide or establish a set distance where your fist will stop.

Er… huh? No, that's not the way that the term is applied at all… the closest is that some systems use the term "kime" to refer to specific targeting (kyusho)….

You have to learn through striking how to actually hit that specific spot.

Which is about targeting, not distance… of course, if your distance is off, your targeting will be as well, but they're still two separate concepts.

Done correctly group a muscles/tendons explosively cause the fist to travel to that target. But precisely an instant before arriving at the point past the set distance all Group A drivers disengage and cease power.

A fraction of that instant is total relaxation of group A. While at the same time a different group engages. Group B does not fight group A.
That would be tension.

Honestly, I think you have that backwards… during the execution of the strike, you have one group of muscles driving the strike forward, without opposition from the opposing group (otherwise you're too tense during the strike, which will rob it of power, speed, and more), with tension being applied on impact to avoid your striking hand crumpling and injuring yourself. Being tense during, and relaxed on impact would result in kinda the opposite of an ideal strike…

When firing a strike into empty air.... group B is responsible for counteracting Inertial Forces caused by the punch.
Primarily to maintain balance, poise and structure.

When striking a solid target, power group B is for sinking the energy into the target without letting the strike become a push.

I don't quite follow what you're meaning by "Group A" and "Group B" here… can you give anatomically accurate examples? Cause this doesn't seem to quite make sense to me…

Punch retraction serves a number of functions.
I wont dive into punch retraction here…

Okay.

But whether you want to send the energy the distance from the target's cheekbone to the back of his skull... or if you only want to send the energy only a few inches deep you will have to set a distance. (Kime) either way.

Er… okay… kime as in focus, sure…

Elbows are moved one direction by the biceps and the opposite by the triceps. Now kime shouldn't be about using one set in opposition to the other. Ever.
View attachment 19592

Again, I'm going to say that this is not the common application of the term "Kime"… yes, tension is commonly a part of kime… which can (and often does) involve muscle groups working against each other… so… gonna disagree again.

Every type muscle provides power by means of contraction.
But not all contractions are tension.

Getting a bit into semantics, but okay…

There are two methods of muscle contraction or said another way... muscle contractions can be described based on two variables: length and tension.

Doing bicep curls is using elongation/delongation. Or muscle length.

Not really sure what this has to do with much, honestly… I mean, you start off by saying that kime refers to "setting distance" (again, I've never come across that as a definition or application of the term at all), then talk about muscle groups and tension (which is closer to the actual application of the term)… taking it to how muscles work in bicep curls. For the record, there can be plenty of kime in things like bicep curls, though…

But the thing that really got me reading (and answering) this thread is the following (and all other related posts):

Yeah, well once one learns & trains real TMA, then one can criticize, competently.

ShotoNoob.

I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.

You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.

Good luck with that.

 

[TSDTexan]

Hmm, I've never come across anything like that as a definition of kime before…

"Kime" (決め) comes from "kimeru", and basically means "to decide" (Judo's Kime no Kata are the "forms of decision/decisive action")… I suppose it could be applied to deciding upon/fixing a distance… but again, not something I've ever come across before.



Kime is often used to refer to "focus, precision (of action), a decisive movement", and the "snapping" of the gi is often seen as an indication of proper kime… as in many (most) arts, this is achieved by a sudden application of tension throughout the striking limb at the moment of impact… so there should absolutely be tension at that point (just not in the surrounding moments). In sword arts, we refer to this as te no uchi (pretty literally: inside the hands), and it's essential if you want to be able to transfer power without losing your weapon. In unarmed striking arts, it's a similar idea… the tension is to transfer power while not damaging yourself at the same time.



Well, yeah, that's how tension is achieved in the body… that doesn't mean that it isn't applied…



Er… huh? No, that's not the way that the term is applied at all… the closest is that some systems use the term "kime" to refer to specific targeting (kyusho)….



Which is about targeting, not distance… of course, if your distance is off, your targeting will be as well, but they're still two separate concepts.



Honestly, I think you have that backwards… during the execution of the strike, you have one group of muscles driving the strike forward, without opposition from the opposing group (otherwise you're too tense during the strike, which will rob it of power, speed, and more), with tension being applied on impact to avoid your striking hand crumpling and injuring yourself. Being tense during, and relaxed on impact would result in kinda the opposite of an ideal strike…



I don't quite follow what you're meaning by "Group A" and "Group B" here… can you give anatomically accurate examples? Cause this doesn't seem to quite make sense to me…



Okay.



Er… okay… kime as in focus, sure…



Again, I'm going to say that this is not the common application of the term "Kime"… yes, tension is commonly a part of kime… which can (and often does) involve muscle groups working against each other… so… gonna disagree again.



Getting a bit into semantics, but okay…



Not really sure what this has to do with much, honestly… I mean, you start off by saying that kime refers to "setting distance" (again, I've never come across that as a definition or application of the term at all), then talk about muscle groups and tension (which is closer to the actual application of the term)… taking it to how muscles work in bicep curls. For the record, there can be plenty of kime in things like bicep curls, though…

But the thing that really got me reading (and answering) this thread is the following (and all other related posts):



ShotoNoob.

I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.

You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.

Good luck with that.

Yes Shihan Chris-sama....
It means to decide. In fact I pointed that out.... when I used that word "decide".

Gi snapping has nothing to do with Kime. Jesse Enkamp... dealt with that... I linked that blog article already.

But of course you don't accept the authority of Jesse as an expert on the subject matter of Karate. Because you seemingly overruled a determination made by him, in a previous conversation between us, on a different thread.
I think him far more authoritative on the subject of Karate then you. And also on this issue as well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes you can too. Everybody is welcome. All traditional Martial arts can be combative (I think?). Just train realistically. Clothing, knives and face painting is all optional.

I think I'm going to have to open my own clothing-optional school of Combat BJJ. I'm sure it will be a big hit.

Then the ONLY appropriate response would be

ShotoNoob.

I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.

You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.

Good luck with that.

ShotoNoob does have his own highly idiosyncratic definitions of terms like TMA, discipline, kime, and so on. (Not to mention his own unique approach to punctuation and capitalization.) I've tried in the past to ask questions to determine exactly what he means when he uses these terms so we can at least discuss his underlying concepts without getting too hung up on the terminology. Unfortunately he seems to be unable to explain his ideas coherently enough for me to really engage with them. Based on that experience I would have to say that he's not even wrong.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hmm, I've never come across anything like that as a definition of kime before…

"Kime" (決め) comes from "kimeru", and basically means "to decide" (Judo's Kime no Kata are the "forms of decision/decisive action")… I suppose it could be applied to deciding upon/fixing a distance… but again, not something I've ever come across before.



Kime is often used to refer to "focus, precision (of action), a decisive movement", and the "snapping" of the gi is often seen as an indication of proper kime… as in many (most) arts, this is achieved by a sudden application of tension throughout the striking limb at the moment of impact… so there should absolutely be tension at that point (just not in the surrounding moments). In sword arts, we refer to this as te no uchi (pretty literally: inside the hands), and it's essential if you want to be able to transfer power without losing your weapon. In unarmed striking arts, it's a similar idea… the tension is to transfer power while not damaging yourself at the same time.



Well, yeah, that's how tension is achieved in the body… that doesn't mean that it isn't applied…



Er… huh? No, that's not the way that the term is applied at all… the closest is that some systems use the term "kime" to refer to specific targeting (kyusho)….



Which is about targeting, not distance… of course, if your distance is off, your targeting will be as well, but they're still two separate concepts.



Honestly, I think you have that backwards… during the execution of the strike, you have one group of muscles driving the strike forward, without opposition from the opposing group (otherwise you're too tense during the strike, which will rob it of power, speed, and more), with tension being applied on impact to avoid your striking hand crumpling and injuring yourself. Being tense during, and relaxed on impact would result in kinda the opposite of an ideal strike…



I don't quite follow what you're meaning by "Group A" and "Group B" here… can you give anatomically accurate examples? Cause this doesn't seem to quite make sense to me…



Okay.



Er… okay… kime as in focus, sure…



Again, I'm going to say that this is not the common application of the term "Kime"… yes, tension is commonly a part of kime… which can (and often does) involve muscle groups working against each other… so… gonna disagree again.



Getting a bit into semantics, but okay…



Not really sure what this has to do with much, honestly… I mean, you start off by saying that kime refers to "setting distance" (again, I've never come across that as a definition or application of the term at all), then talk about muscle groups and tension (which is closer to the actual application of the term)… taking it to how muscles work in bicep curls. For the record, there can be plenty of kime in things like bicep curls, though…

But the thing that really got me reading (and answering) this thread is the following (and all other related posts):



ShotoNoob.

I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.

You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.

Good luck with that.

\
Your posts (on the TMA principles) generally make a lot sense to me....
\
Good luck with that....

 

[geezer]

I think I'm going to have to open my own clothing-optional school of Combat BJJ. I'm sure it will be a big hit.





ShotoNoob does have his own highly idiosyncratic definitions of terms like TMA, discipline, kime, and so on. (Not to mention his own unique approach to punctuation and capitalization.) I've tried in the past to ask questions to determine exactly what he means when he uses these terms so we can at least discuss his underlying concepts without getting too hung up on the terminology. Unfortunately he seems to be unable to explain his ideas coherently enough for me to really engage with them. Based on that experience I would have to say that he's not even wrong.

Sorry to continue this tangent Tony, but I want to thank you for that link to "not even wrong". What a great expression! Following up I came across another similar expression that often seems applicable:

http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/b/b6/Fractal-wrongness.jpg

And not to be arrogant, I've often gone there myself. Like trying to discuss pro-hockey with my friends back at at college ...when I didn't even know the rules. (I just watched for the fights).

Oh... and @ Shotonoob, thanks for wishing us all luck. Now I'm sorry if we've been harsh or critical. Honestly, no hard feelings. Just shake it off!
\
And...Good luck with that!

 

[Danny T]

not even wrong.

Tony, this is excellent.
Have crossed this threshold a time or two... and have run across the same in many 'discussions'. Now have a great way to express such to someone who does the same.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."

There are always over committed strikes from practitioners. Most if not all fighting systems will tell you not to over commit but the fighter will still do so from time to time. Wing Chun students often over commit in taking the center-line. They also over commit with trying to land the "40 hit punch flood combo" which takes away their root. Students of every fighting system are at risk for over committing in some shape or form. WC students are also over commits with the punches which gets them into trouble when it comes to defending against take downs.