Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[TSDTexan]

I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.

 

[PiedmontChun]

It does not look very relaxed, and while much of what was shown look like pattern type drills, they seemed to lack forward intent I'm used to seeing in WC/WT/VT. There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.

After 1:00 it didn't even look like WC anymore - guys throwing Muay Thai type kicks on heavy bags, checking kicks with the leg versus trying to move in and crash the opponent, and some serious chasing arms at 1:25.

It looks like the school teaches kickboxing and MMA as well, so maybe they are after a hybrid or eclectic approach. I wouldn't criticize anyone's training methods if that is what they want to train. Not my cup of tea though.

 

[TSDTexan]

There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.

From an outsiders view... WC is both a concept driven art
and technique driven art. But my question is this:
How many principles can you "lose" before its not wing chun?
Which leads to asking, "What is "the" orthodox wing chun?"

Because the argument over who has the "real" wing chun has never been settled. And until a baseline is codified or a universal standard that enumerates absolute minimum core tenants...is achived by some consensus...then we are shooting blind folded at a moving target.

 

[KPM]

It does not look very relaxed, and while much of what was shown look like pattern type drills, they seemed to lack forward intent I'm used to seeing in WC/WT/VT. There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.

---This is Duncan Leung lineage. He was a student of Ip Man. And you are right, most of this is pattern type drills...reaction/response drills. So why would you expect them to have forward intent and not to disengage? These are "back and forth" drills, that's usually how "back and forth" drills work.

 

[PiedmontChun]

---This is Duncan Leung lineage. He was a student of Ip Man. And you are right, most of this is pattern type drills...reaction/response drills. So why would you expect them to have forward intent and not to disengage? These are "back and forth" drills, that's usually how "back and forth" drills work.

I said while much of it was drills, I didn't see discernible forward pressure or intent. Obviously pattern drills you would expect it to be 1-2, reset, repeat. But then as it progressed and showed other students and more dynamic drills.....I didn't see it there either. I don't expect to see blind-folded chi-sau on display but there was nothing there showing what I see as a hallmark of good Wing Chun. And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.

 

[PiedmontChun]

From an outsiders view... WC is both a concept driven art
and technique driven art. But my question is this:
How many principles can you "lose" before its not wing chun?
Which leads to asking, "What is "the" orthodox wing chun?"

Because the argument over who has the "real" wing chun has never been settled. And until a baseline is codified or a universal standard that enumerates absolute minimum core tenants...is achived by some consensus...then we are shooting blind folded at a moving target.

That question is above my pay grade. However, I will say that many (not even referring to the school or lineage in this video) people who cross train different arts use visibly recognizable movements from WC and say they are "doing wing chun". It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well a little Webfu got this, but as to what it really means, I can't tell you apparently this is the guy who is the "Applied Wing Chun Sifu"

Henry Araneda trained with SiFu Duncan Leung

•SiFu Henry is a founding member of the International Applied Wing Chun Federation.
•Certified Instructor under The China Foshan Martial Arts Association.
•Certified Instructor under The International Martial Arts Alliance.
•Graduated In Sports Methodology and Planning for Martial Arts Competitions, course provided by Shorin Ryu Karate Do Chilean Association.
•Qualified Martial Arts Instructor certificate issued by Colonel A. Benavente.

I leave the rest to the Wing Chun folks of MT

 

[wckf92]

And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.

After 1:00 it didn't even look like WC anymore - guys throwing Muay Thai type kicks on heavy bags, checking kicks with the leg versus trying to move in and crash the opponent

???
To assume otherwise is to assume you are always at red alert and psychic and live in a perfect world where you (the WC guy) never train for the unexpected.

 

[TSDTexan]

I said while much of it was drills, I didn't see discernible forward pressure or intent. Obviously pattern drills you would expect it to be 1-2, reset, repeat. But then as it progressed and showed other students and more dynamic drills.....I didn't see it there either. I don't expect to see blind-folded chi-sau on display but there was nothing there showing what I see as a hallmark of good Wing Chun. And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.

I have a number of WC books that show pictures leg checking in response to kicks.

 

[TSDTexan]

And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.

As for legchecking like a kickboxer.... I don't have the pictures hand yet but...


CLOSE RANGE COMBAT Wing Chun
Explosive Self-Defense Techniques
Volume 2
Randy Williams
UNIQUE PUBLICATIONS Burbank, California

I would refer you to pages 100 & 101...


Fook Family (Wing Chun) Leg Defense
Photo #63—Fook Sau/Fook Sut.

Based on the Fook Sau principle, Fook family leg defenses use a downward motion of the leg to block, press or trap the opponent’s leg or, under unusual circumstances, the arm.

Fook Gyeuk—The Fook Gyeuk motion uses the inner shin to stop an oncoming Round Kick or other upward/inward-angled kick with its own downward/inward action. It is normally used at mid-range and is therefore considered a Chum Kiu-level technique.

At times, the knee itself may be used in place of the inner shin as in figure. 180C. When this occurs, the resulting motion is known as Fook Sut, which means “Bridging Knee.”
Page 100

Wing Chun Leg Defense

Fig. 180—Application of Fook Gyeuk and Fook Sut. In photos A and B, Fighter #2’s attempted Round Kick and Reverse Round Kick are stopped by #1’s downward/ forward shin deflection (Fook Gyeuk). When the knee is used rather than the shin as in photo C, the resulting motion is known as Fook Sut.
(Pictures of leg checking a kick here)
180A B C


Both Fook Gyeuk and Fook Sut are extremely quick, economical defenses against angular leg attack. They are most commonly used to block any Roundhouse or Crescent Kick aimed below chest level.

After blocking, both Fook family leg defenses leave the blocker in excellent position for counterattack, which is usually accomplished by smoothly continuing the motion of the leg by kicking out the attacker’s base leg using the foot of the blocking leg without putting the foot down between motions.

Kicking in this manner is known as Moh Ying Gyeuk (“Shadowless” or “Invisible” Kicking {in white crane it is called a ghost kick}) because it is so fast and efficient it seems to be invisible to the opponent until he has been hit. The Moh Ying Gyeuk principle was examined more closely in Volume I of this series.

When executing Fook Gyeuk or Fook Sut, sharply bend the blocking leg with its knee higher than the foot. The shin and calf muscles are readied for contact by bending the instep fully downward until the toes point in the opposite direction from the knee.

The base foot, body structure and Angle of Facing should be exactly the same as that of the Side Kick and the body should be upright to enable the hands to be used simulta- neously and/or immediately after the block in a follow-up motion.

Fook Sut can at times be laid on top of an arm trapped on the low- line in an action that frees the formerly trapping hand to strike or block.

On occasion, it can even be used to block a low punch, as might occur if the opponent attempted a wide “bolo”-type uppercut punch with the rear left hand when the Wing Chun man is in a right leading Forward Stance.

Seeing the punch originating from the extreme low-line, the Wing Chun fighter might opt to use his right Fook Sut to stop it while he simultaneously prepares the return-fire.
Page 101

 

[Jake104]

It does not look very relaxed, and while much of what was shown look like pattern type drills, they seemed to lack forward intent I'm used to seeing in WC/WT/VT. There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.

After 1:00 it didn't even look like WC anymore - guys throwing Muay Thai type kicks on heavy bags, checking kicks with the leg versus trying to move in and crash the opponent, and some serious chasing arms at 1:25.

It looks like the school teaches kickboxing and MMA as well, so maybe they are after a hybrid or eclectic approach. I wouldn't criticize anyone's training methods if that is what they want to train. Not my cup of tea though.

I think I saw forward intent whenever they moved forward.

 

[Jake104]

From an outsiders view... WC is both a concept driven art
and technique driven art. But my question is this:
How many principles can you "lose" before its not wing chun?
Which leads to asking, "What is "the" orthodox wing chun?"

Because the argument over who has the "real" wing chun has never been settled. And until a baseline is codified or a universal standard that enumerates absolute minimum core tenants...is achived by some consensus...then we are shooting blind folded at a moving target.

I say none. You must maintain all WC core principles for it to remain WC. It's tricky though, because we can't even agree on what those principles are, or more specifically what forward intent is ? I know what they are and I'm only a student. Problem is, there are Sifu's who don't, and who are teaching and posting videos. So that's where part of the problem lies.

In terms of what WC should look like. It depends on who I'm fighting and what I get. Hopefully, I train realistically and when I fight my WC principles stay in tack. Hopefully, in my journey, I have transitioned from technique and drills into the more useful underlying concepts and ideas of what WC really is? Hopefully!

 

[TSDTexan]

I say none. You must maintain all WC core principles for it to remain WC. It's tricky though, because we can't even agree on what those principles are, or more specifically what forward intent is ? I know what they are and I'm only a student. Problem is, there are Sifu's who don't, and who are teaching and posting videos. So that's where part of the problem lies.

In terms of what WC should look like. It depends on who I'm fighting and what I get. Hopefully, I train realistically and when I fight my WC principles stay in tack. Hopefully, in my journey, I have transitioned from technique and drills into the more useful underlying concepts and ideas of what WC really is? Hopefully!

Could it be there is a spectrum?

And what do you call something that is 90% wing chun and 10% the opposite principles, or ignores 10%?

How about 70/30%?

What do you call something that is 50% in keeping with the tenants & principles?

This is a tricky place... GM John Pelegrini was at when he overhauled Hopkido to make "Combat Hopkido". If he called it something else... his critics would say "he stole it from Hopkido without crediting the source." But if he called it Hopkido, critics from within the existing Hopkido groups would say "oh thats not real Hopkido... its missing this, and this and it is missing that other thing too... and what? He put in JKD trapping into his art? That is definitely not Hopkido.

 

[Jake104]

Could it be there is a spectrum?

And what do you call something that is 90% wing chun and 10% the opposite principles, or ignores 10%?

How about 70/30%?

What do you call something 50% in keeping with the tenents principles

Are we talking techniques? If we are talking principles? Then let's use forward intent as an example. I just can't let this one go.

So if ones understanding of forward intent is only going forward. There easily could be a misconception of breaking a rule or concept by retreating. So the lack of truly understanding what a concept or principe is could lead to a 'spectrum'? So if forward intent has multiple layers and is always there. It could be perceived that the said principle is not there to some who can't see past the first layer?

Same goes with centerline or any of the other core WC principles. If center line is only the quickest distance between a and b or is never to be crossed. Then going around center may not be perceived as WC? Since WC uses the most direct route in order to achieve it's goal of hitting? What if hitting isn't available? What if centerline is occupied? Should we force our way into that space? Wouldn't that be breaking WC's rule of not meeting force with force?

You see where I'm going? If you can only take things at face value then you get an art that lacks this or that. If you can see beyond the techniques, then the art becomes complete. Simple? He'll no! It's taken me over 20 years and the possibilities still trip me out.

 

[TSDTexan]

Are we talking techniques? If we are talking principles? Then let's use forward intent as an example. I just can't let this one go.

So if ones understanding of forward intent is only going forward. There easily could be a misconception of breaking a rule or concept by retreating. So the lack of truly understanding what a concept or principe is could lead to a 'spectrum'? So if forward intent has multiple layers and is always there. It could be perceived that the said principle is not there to some who can't see past the first layer?

Same goes with centerline or any of the other core WC principles. If center line is only the quickest distance between a and b or is never to be crossed. Then going around center may not be perceived as WC? Since WC uses the most direct route in order to achieve it's goal of hitting? What if hitting isn't available? What if centerline is occupied? Should we force our way into that space? Wouldn't that be breaking WC's rule of not meeting force with force?

You see where I'm going? If you can only take things at face value then you get an art that lacks this or that. If you can see beyond the techniques, then the art becomes complete. Simple? He'll no! It's taken me over 20 years and the possibilities still trip me out.

Ya. So without a framework of wc tenants it cannot be WC.
But certain rules are made to be bent In a case by case situational basis. The expert practioner can on the fly make a decision to employ techniques that appear not to be WC but operate in harmony with the core tenants. While not cannonical techs... they are ad hoc WC.



If it makes you sacrifice speed and complicates the KISS rule for a chance to hit harder its not WC. Ie Foreman's Roundhouse Haymaker..

But an agressor who just got peppersprayed and is fighting blind... is asking for a kick to the head, right after a solid solar plexus strike.
(He is going to be vision impaired guarding low, and unable to breath well.)

If it require sequence of block and then strike...
And so on.

So what about an art consisting only of known cannon techniques drawn only from WC but with different power generation isnt WC is it?

Or Hard Blocks (force with force)... or even better "no blocks, no deflections".... simply eating some punches to trade the better blows, but attacking in the undefended gate openned by the oppenents attack?

 

[Jake104]

This is a tricky place... GM John Pelegrini was at when he overhauled Hopkido to make "Combat Hopkido". If he called it something else... his critics would say "he stole it from Hopkido without crediting the source." But if he called it Hopkido, critics from within the existing Hopkido groups would say "oh thats not real Hopkido... its missing this, and this and it is missing that other thing too... and what?

It is tricky. My current teacher tells me he's teaching me combat WC. We still do what everybody else does. We just make it combative. What might that mean you ask? We make it work lol! No, really it's just stripping it down. He describes it like sharpening a blade. You take material off to sharpen and to get the tip smaller. Something like that. I probably butchered that one sorry lol.

What it means is more important. It's about making our movements smaller and smaller and more direct.

 

[Jake104]

So in order to sharpen a blade you need bare stock. Eventually that stock becomes smaller as it get sharpened over and over again. The metal stock will not get bigger as it is sharpened


So you could say the first layer of WC (techniques and drills) are like a forged dull knife stock or blank. We all get handed that dull stock as we go through the system. As we start to pull back layers that dull stock starts to hold and edge and becomes smaller as it sharpens.

So by getting stuck in technique and drills your knife will always be dull. Even if you master the techniques the result will stay the same.

I think most have it backwards and try and ad material as they progress.

 

[Transk53]

I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

[yak sao]

So in order to sharpen a blade you need bare stock. Eventually that stock becomes smaller as it get sharpened over and over again. The metal stock will not get bigger as it is sharpened


So you could say the first layer of WC (techniques and drills) are like a forged dull knife stock or blank. We all get handed that dull stock as we go through the system. As we start to pull back layers that dull stock starts to hold and edge and becomes smaller as it sharpens.

So by getting stuck in technique and drills your knife will always be dull. Even if you master the techniques the result will stay the same.

I think most have it backwards and try and ad material as they progress.

Yes! Yes! A hundred times Yes!
The goal of the WC man should be to simplify not tack on a bunch of crap.
My si-fu said to "strive to get better and better at less and less"

 

[Danny T]

Looks like wing chun people working on using their skills with some pressure. Needs refining but they are working on it which is what we should be doing rather than criticizing.
We do intercept kicks with legs same a same as arms. Forward intent doesn't mean the body is always going forward.

"...combat wc." ???
What is that vs wing chun? I say if you aren't doing some training as shown in the video you aren't seriously training your wing chun and your skills will always be lacking.