Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

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Chris Parker

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Yes Shihan Chris-sama....
It means to decide. In fact I pointed that out.... when I used that word "decide".

Firstly, you can leave off the passive-aggressive attitude.

Secondly, no, you didn't. The only mention of the term "decide" in any of your posts is this:
Kime is to mentally decide or establish a set distance where your fist will stop.

You don't state that it means "to decide", you say that it refers to "mentally decid(ing)… a set distance". And there is absolutely nothing in the concept of kime, the application of the term, or any of the sources and links you provided that even hints at such a thing.

You know… maybe I was a bit too subtle earlier when I said that I hadn't come across that usage of the term kime in relation to distance… I was trying to be less overt considering your recent rant against me. I'll stop that now.

You are, without doubt or second consideration, completely wrong in your definition of kime. The fact that members who have no major exposure to Japanese systems are thinking that you are correct is enough for me to come along and point out that, frankly, you are, once again, wrong. I heartily recommend that Geezer and others who think you were accurate look further int o the topic.

Gi snapping has nothing to do with Kime. Jesse Enkamp... dealt with that... I linked that blog article already.

I'd already read Jesse's blog post, but let's look at it again, shall we? Here it is again: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/kime-putting-the-nail-in-the-coffin/

So, what's said there? Well… it's pointed out that the term is a derivative of the jisho form "kimeru" (決める), which refers commonly to deciding, fixing, or setting (in place). However, it's also pointed out that the term "(probably breaks) 10 or 12 different world records in terms of ambiguity"… highlighting that, as with much of the Japanese language, the meaning changes (in cases, quite dramatically) based on the context.

Next, Jesse goes through a range of comments he's come across that he says aren't representative of kime… all of which actually focus on a very similar interpretation of the concept; namely that the concept of kime is related to the execution of a powerful strike. Jesse disagrees… interestingly without disagreeing with any of it… by saying that kime is something that can be seen in any technique at all (well, yeah)… and that it is found specifically when you tense certain muscles. Which is the opposite of your claim that tensing is never kime… and has absolutely nothing to do with distance.

But here's the thing… Jesse is still off. Kime is not a single action, or event. It's a concentration of your entire effort… the focus put into the strike… how you co-ordinate your body… how you breath… what all of your muscles are doing, not just the antagonists… and is often checked/represented by exactly what Jesse is saying kime isn't. In a way, he's right… such external observations aren't kime itself, per se… you can only know yourself if you have kime or not… but they are an indication.

But of course you don't accept the authority of Jesse as an expert on the subject matter of Karate.

I'd consider him a flawed source, honestly. He tends to rely on his own ideas over learning the actual history and definitions in places… which can be very interesting, but can also be rather misplaced.

Because you seemingly overruled a determination made by him, in a previous conversation between us, on a different thread.

On his ideas of what made a system, yeah.

I think him far more authoritative on the subject of Karate then you. And also on this issue as well.

You're free to think that. Simply going through his "about" page raises a couple of red flags, inaccurate terminology and grasp on Japanese martial concepts and history, and a few other things… of course, the major point here is that nothing Jesse says, nor in the linked video you posted, actually supports anything you've said.

As said, I was being kind earlier. I'm a bit past that now. So…

"There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.

That is absolutely not the "essence of kime", as distance has absolutely nothing to do with it.

That rings true.

So then I take it kime doesn't necessarily involve that instant of tension at the end of each strike?

Yes, an instant of tension at the completion of the strike (the decisive moment that the strike is focused on, on impact) is a fundamental external indication of good kime.

Right, that's done, I hope.

Your posts (on the TMA principles) generally make a lot sense to me....
\
Good luck with that....

Er… okay. You make no sense to me, or, it seems, anyone else here. And you really do show no clue about anything to do with actual traditional martial arts… at all.
 
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TSDTexan

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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
—James Downey, Billy Madison


Ummm.... whatever Professor. You telling me I am wrong means squat really. You are just a voice on the Internet. And are as accurate as a Wikipedia page as far as I am concerned.

Simply because of the way you treat people here, I dislike, discount and disbelieve anything you say.
T.O.S. prevents me from telling you how I really feel about you, and where you should go.
And because I don't want to get this tread locked, I am going to behave.

So I will leave it at this...
No. You are wrong.

And between me and you... its the end of the discussion.
And I am now putting you on my ignore list, as the attitude in your words are an offense to my eyes.


Good day Sir.

You are a martial talk mentor?......
それはすごいですね

Instead of just linking Jesse as I have done previously, or attempting to paraphrase him as you have (poorly I might add) I will let him speak for himself.

Dispite your ridiculous ad hominem attacks on him... he is a far greater authority on karate than you are.

And the Gi snapping reference to Kime you made proves it.

Jesse actually says that is unintelligent... a polite way of saying stupid.

In context, he is saying the Kime is Gi Snap position is stupid. I say people who say stupid things, look like they got mustard and ketsup on thier white shirt.

Here is Jesse, all the remaining words in this post are his.

Probably breaking at least ten or twelve different kinds of world records in terms of ambiguity, kime is a word that, in the Western world of Karate, is as popular as it is misunderstood. But that’s not the case in Japan. On that sunny day in Okinawa, when my friend asked me “what date I had set for my departure”, he used the word kime like it was nothing. Just a word among words.

To him it simply meant “fix“, or “set”.

As in fixing, or setting, a date.

And that’s exactly what my dictionary tells me:

Kime(ru) – ichidan verb; transitive verb – to decide, fix or set.

Yet, when I look around the web, I find the word kime being repeatedly misused. And frankly speaking, I don’t know why.

Maybe we are a bit afraid that some of the exoticism of Karate will be lost if we fully understand the terms we use? The definitions of kime vary, and it surprises me that even some of the most famous Western historians (no names mentioned) doesn’t seem to understand the word they are trying to explain.

Look:

“It is the ability to rapidly dump power into the target which is ‘kime’.”

Or how about:

“The point is you accelerate into the target and you kime focuses the energy inside [the target] rather than through. Very difficult to explain in words […]”

Or:

“I tend to think that ” kime ” is just the best someone could come up with describe what the rest of us would call a serious whack with intent.”

Here’s another:

“To me it [kime] is about “shocking” the opponent. Applying your maximum force so quickly that the opponent cannot adjust to the impact either consciously or unconsciously.”

Other legendary explanations involve “that snap of the gi at the end of a punch” or “destructive force/power”. Some people even claim:

“Use the snap [of the gi] as a barometer of kime, or martial arts focus”

How about that?

Even the almighty Wikipedia says kime means “power, and/or focus” and even “attacking a pressure point” (!)

And the incredibly fun, yet sad, thing is… that it’s all wrong.

These above quotes are for the most very intelligent and good (except that snap barometer thing maybe!), and they all apply to Karate in one way or another, but it’s not kime.

Sorry.

Somebody pulled a fast one on you.

You are better off using other terms, like “chinkuchi” or “kimochi” for even more mysterious Okinawan Karate words, or why not simply the Japanese “zentai ryoku” – full body power?

The coach of the Japanese national team uses it frequently.

But then again, it’s not quite as catchy…

So, to sum it up, kime is not any of the following:


Impressive, yes? Kime, no.

snap of the gi
serious intent to whack somebody
full commitment to a strike
shocking the opponent
dumping power into a target
destructive force/power
a magical ingredient that makes you a master
 
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TSDTexan

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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
—James Downey, Billy Madison


Ummm.... whatever Professor. You telling me I am wrong means squat really. You are just a voice on the Internet. And are as accurate as a Wikipedia page as far as I am concerned.

Simply because of the way you treat people here, I dislike, discount and disbelieve anything you say.
T.O.S. prevents me from telling you how I really feel about you, and where you should go.
And because I don't want to get this tread locked, I am going to behave.

So I will leave it at this...
No. You are wrong.

And between me and you... its the end of the discussion.
And I am now putting you on my ignore list, as the attitude in your words are an offense to my eyes.


Good day Sir.

You are a martial talk mentor?......
それはすごいですね

Instead of just linking Jesse as I have done previously, or attempting to paraphrase him as you have (poorly I might add) I will let him speak for himself.

Dispite your ridiculous ad hominem attacks on him... he is a far greater authority on karate than you are.

And the Gi snapping reference to Kime you made proves it.

Jesse actually says that is unintelligent... a polite way of saying stupid.

In context, he is saying the Kime is Gi Snap position is stupid. I say people who say stupid things, look like they got mustard and ketsup on thier white shirt.

Here is Jesse, all the remaining words in this post are his.

Probably breaking at least ten or twelve different kinds of world records in terms of ambiguity, kime is a word that, in the Western world of Karate, is as popular as it is misunderstood. But that’s not the case in Japan. On that sunny day in Okinawa, when my friend asked me “what date I had set for my departure”, he used the word kime like it was nothing. Just a word among words.

To him it simply meant “fix“, or “set”.

As in fixing, or setting, a date.

And that’s exactly what my dictionary tells me:

Kime(ru) – ichidan verb; transitive verb – to decide, fix or set.

Yet, when I look around the web, I find the word kime being repeatedly misused. And frankly speaking, I don’t know why.

Maybe we are a bit afraid that some of the exoticism of Karate will be lost if we fully understand the terms we use? The definitions of kime vary, and it surprises me that even some of the most famous Western historians (no names mentioned) doesn’t seem to understand the word they are trying to explain.

Look:

“It is the ability to rapidly dump power into the target which is ‘kime’.”

Or how about:

“The point is you accelerate into the target and you kime focuses the energy inside [the target] rather than through. Very difficult to explain in words […]”

Or:

“I tend to think that ” kime ” is just the best someone could come up with describe what the rest of us would call a serious whack with intent.”

Here’s another:

“To me it [kime] is about “shocking” the opponent. Applying your maximum force so quickly that the opponent cannot adjust to the impact either consciously or unconsciously.”

Other legendary explanations involve “that snap of the gi at the end of a punch” or “destructive force/power”. Some people even claim:

“Use the snap [of the gi] as a barometer of kime, or martial arts focus”

How about that?

Even the almighty Wikipedia says kime means “power, and/or focus” and even “attacking a pressure point” (!)

And the incredibly fun, yet sad, thing is… that it’s all wrong.

These above quotes are for the most very intelligent and good (except that snap barometer thing maybe!), and they all apply to Karate in one way or another, but it’s not kime.

Sorry.

Somebody pulled a fast one on you.

You are better off using other terms, like “chinkuchi” or “kimochi” for even more mysterious Okinawan Karate words, or why not simply the Japanese “zentai ryoku” – full body power?

The coach of the Japanese national team uses it frequently.

But then again, it’s not quite as catchy…

So, to sum it up, kime is not any of the following:


Impressive, yes? Kime, no.

snap of the gi
serious intent to whack somebody
full commitment to a strike
shocking the opponent
dumping power into a target
destructive force/power
a magical ingredient that makes you a master


Nice to see you TEZ3. I see your name in the popup on the list button next to your disagree mark.
Since I have no interest in anything you say or might say, I wont be taking you off of my ignore list. I am sure you are here to support your bosom buddy.
But ya... I am over all that.

I am glad to see you are still haunting the premises. I will take no further thought of you, other than to to say "peace, wellness be upon you and yours".

G'DAY TO YA.
 

Grenadier

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