An incident of a gun not being a magic wand

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Bill Mattocks, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thought this was interesting:

    VIDEO: Florida man armed with machete fends off robbers

    Please note one of the bad guys is armed with a pump-action shotgun, which he chases the victim with - and then retreats as the victim arms himself with a machete and comes out swinging.

    Seems to me he either didn't know how to use his weapon, it was non-functional (or empty) or he didn't want to pull the trigger and commit murder.

    But he clearly expected the gun to be a magic wand, as many people (good people and bad people) seem to do. They imagine if they just wave it around, everybody will do what they say to do.

    Doesn't always work that way. If you are not prepared to kill, waving a gun around is probably not that great of an idea. And sometimes it's a bad idea even if you are prepared to kill.
     
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    I think people in general put too much faith in a gun. People who have guns assume that no one will get the drop on them, or that the person they aim at is a better shot. I look at guns in the same light as martial arts. Just because you have it doesn't mean it'll save you. It may increase the chance of your survival, but that's not the same as guaranteeing your survival.

    If police and soldiers with guns die from gun fire, then a civilian shouldn't be thinking that they are the exception to that.

    As for the video. I couldn't tell if the guy had some mechanical problems with the gun. It looks like he gives a quick glance to the side of the gun but couldn't look down for too long because he had a guy swinging a machete. Some criminals know the difference between robbery and murder. So they don't shoot. I guess we won't know those answers until the trial and police details come out. If they come out.
     
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  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I wondered if he just had the safety on. That's a mistake I've seen people make at the range, when they aren't used to actually using their gun.
     
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  4. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Could be, and of course there's the "Fifth Element" movie...
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nah, if he'd been by Corbin's place, he wouldn't have had the gun, at all, anymore. And he'd have been wearing a much different hat.
     
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  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    For carry duty, I've switched to guns without a safety lever.

    That said, it's not anything that can't be trained. There are people who have trained to flick off the safety of their 1911 who end up flicking off the non-existent safety on their Glocks too. No harm, no foul.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah, I had that issue when I switched back to a Glock after having a 1911 for a while (the 1911 looks and "feels" better, but I shoot dramatically better with a Glock for some reason).
     
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  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I wouldn't call it an issue. I see no problem with it whatsoever. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well, except that it annoyed me. Anything that annoys me is an issue, Kirk. :mad:
     
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  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Fair enough.

    Some people might call it "training scars" because it is unnecessary on the Glock. I think that it's fine because it does not harm you when using the Glock and, if you pick up a pistol with a thumb-downstroke safety, then you already have the automatic thumbswipe response and won't be that goober pulling the trigger but not knowing why it ain't going bang.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  11. CB Jones

    CB Jones Master of Arts

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    I don't know but it looks like he is also having trouble figuring out how work the action...so its a good chance he didn't have one in the chamber.

    My bet is it was the tri-fecta....safety, no round in chamber, and unfamiliar with the action
     
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  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    Better than being on live leak titled "Guy gets face shot off in armed robbery." It's good that things didn't get worse.
     
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  13. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I agree with you. However, when I posted this, my intent was to demonstrate that the 'magic' power of a pointed firearm doesn't always work. This armed robber discovered that; his posture was one of a person who wanted the gun to cause his victim to give up, but it didn't work out that way. In such cases, plan B is generally to use the weapon as it was intended. He didn't do that, for whatever reason, and the victim is indeed lucky he didn't.

    But again, a gun is not a magic wand. People think all they have to do is produce one and everybody calms down and does what the person with the weapon says to do. This frequently does not happen.

    The fault is with the logic that makes this assumption. Guns are not magic wands. They are weapons. If you're going to point one at someone, you'd best be prepared to shoot and kill them; otherwise your weapon in your hands is a liability.

    This is a point I keep trying to make to the guys who think going around with a gun (or stick, or knife, or flashlight, or pepper spray, etc) is some kind of deterrent. It's not a deterrent. It's not a magic wand. If a person draws a weapon, the chances of the incident becoming one involving deadly force just went up significantly. It doesn't mean people should not carry weapons or that they should refrain from drawing them; it means if they plan to draw, they'd best be prepared to kill; because that is frequently what happens next.

    Magic thinking is that one can just wave the gun about like a talisman and everything gets better. It doesn't. As this video demonstrates.
     
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  14. CB Jones

    CB Jones Master of Arts

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    And at least know how to operate it.

    Leeroy Jenkins cop video



    Backstory...guy walking down the street threatening people with a shotgun but couldn't figure out to release the slide to load a round in the chamber. He finally figure it out and....Leeroy Jenkins.
     
  15. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I remember seeing that on the news, along with some disparaging remarks from the anchor people. They of course were not tasked with facing an armed man.
     
  16. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Bill,

    I agree completely that a firearm is a tool, and one must not only know how to use it, but be committed to using it when the time comes. But,

    When I retired, I felt kind of naked without a concealed weapon on me. I knew when it would be appropriate to use it and how, but suddenly I didn't have it. Now I am not only more comfortable not having one, I am somewhat reluctant to put in to have one, even though I could do that.
     
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  17. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    What I wonder about from the video is if the guy has ever used a shotgun before. Sighting down the gun barrel like that is a little unusual for a shotgun. It isn't sometimes called a scatter gun for nothing.

    What I really like about the video was the little black dog. We have one about that size as well. She will alert to any strange noise. And as long as we are around she is the bravest thing on four legs. :)
     
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  18. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 2nd Black Belt

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    This kinda reminds me of a video I saw a while back of some Russian guys who picked a fight with a motorist. The motorist got pissed off and pulled a gun on them, and they weren't deterred at all. I guess if you live in a society where guns are everywhere and everyone has them, the effect of them as a deterrent diminishes.

    This is how we treat them in the UK, particularly with our armed police officers. Our armed officers don't get much action (relatively speaking) but when they are brought in, they know they will most likely have to shoot to kill.

    London Bridge attack - everything we know

    Case in point. 3 armed attackers started causing havok in London. Within 8 minutes armed police officers were on the scene and shot them on sight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  19. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    When I was a US Marine MP, we went to HMAS Sterling in Western Australia for a large training exercise. We worked in Perth side by side with the local police when the Marines got liberty. We were surprised to find they were not armed. They were surprised to find we were. No one got shot in any case.
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Damn right too!

    There was also a load of comments coming from the US mostly telling us that we needed to be armed because if we were these things wouldn't happen then. It misses the point though that in these terrorist type situations just carrying a weapon isn't good enough one has to be trained to use it in these situations. Being able to shoot at a range isn't good enough I'm afraid. Our police and Spec Forces train specifically for these situations, I'm sure they do in the US as well, close to me we have a FIBUA training facility ( Fighting in Built Up Areas) where the police and military alike train. I'm not saying don't carry weapons ( though in the UK you'll find few who want to) I am saying that in terrorist type situations it's a different kettle of fish compared to a robbery or burglary. Our troops a while back were patrolling streets in Northern Ireland where a lot of the people had weapons, shooting back when shot at had connotations because people were in the way sometimes deliberately so. Knowing when and where to shoot as well as being able to shoot quickly enough takes training.
     
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