An incident of a gun not being a magic wand

[CB Jones]

Damn right too!

There was also a load of comments coming from the US mostly telling us that we needed to be armed because if we were these things wouldn't happen then. It misses the point though that in these terrorist type situations just carrying a weapon isn't good enough one has to be trained to use it in these situations. Being able to shoot at a range isn't good enough I'm afraid. Our police and Spec Forces train specifically for these situations, I'm sure they do in the US as well, close to me we have a FIBUA training facility ( Fighting in Built Up Areas) where the police and military alike train. I'm not saying don't carry weapons ( though in the UK you'll find few who want to) I am saying that in terrorist type situations it's a different kettle of fish compared to a robbery or burglary. Our troops a while back were patrolling streets in Northern Ireland where a lot of the people had weapons, shooting back when shot at had connotations because people were in the way sometimes deliberately so. Knowing when and where to shoot as well as being able to shoot quickly enough takes training.

I agree training is very important.

But if you are in a room and a barge is gonna barge in and try to kill you having a weapon even if you a poorly trained with it is better than being unarmed. It might only increase your chances slightly....but a little is better than none. That is a lot of our mentality on it.

 

[Tez3]

I agree training is very important.

But if you are in a room and a barge is gonna barge in and try to kill you having a weapon even if you a poorly trained with it is better than being unarmed. It might only increase your chances slightly....but a little is better than none. That is a lot of our mentality on it.

I did say I wasn't talking about those type of situations, my comments were specifically about terrorist type of attacks something I probably know more about and are more experienced in than most here.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Damn right too!

There was also a load of comments coming from the US mostly telling us that we needed to be armed because if we were these things wouldn't happen then. It misses the point though that in these terrorist type situations just carrying a weapon isn't good enough one has to be trained to use it in these situations. Being able to shoot at a range isn't good enough I'm afraid. Our police and Spec Forces train specifically for these situations, I'm sure they do in the US as well, close to me we have a FIBUA training facility ( Fighting in Built Up Areas) where the police and military alike train. I'm not saying don't carry weapons ( though in the UK you'll find few who want to) I am saying that in terrorist type situations it's a different kettle of fish compared to a robbery or burglary. Our troops a while back were patrolling streets in Northern Ireland where a lot of the people had weapons, shooting back when shot at had connotations because people were in the way sometimes deliberately so. Knowing when and where to shoot as well as being able to shoot quickly enough takes training.

I don't disagree with you. I do believe that we live in different environments, so horses for courses. In the UK, per-person gun ownership is quite low, especially as compared to the USA. Not arguing the right or wrong of it, this is not about politics; simply stating facts. When so many people are armed in the US, the police have little choice but to be armed (and trained). In the UK, the situation is quite different and I get that.

 

[lklawson]

Within 8 minutes armed police officers were on the scene and shot them on sight.

8 minutes is a horrifyingly long time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

I don't disagree with you. I do believe that we live in different environments, so horses for courses. In the UK, per-person gun ownership is quite low, especially as compared to the USA. Not arguing the right or wrong of it, this is not about politics; simply stating facts. When so many people are armed in the US, the police have little choice but to be armed (and trained). In the UK, the situation is quite different and I get that.

The terrorist type attacks have a commonality in whatever country they are carried out in. My point is that in whichever country this happens the police and security services are the ones trained to deal with it not the person who carries a weapon and isn't trained in dealing with terrorist attacks.

8 minutes is a horrifyingly long time.

Not bad in a built up city of 6 million people. Police officers were on the scene in far less time than that. Long before they arrived though the terrorists were contained and not harming the general public though still very dangerous.

 

[lklawson]

Not bad in a built up city of 6 million people. Police officers were on the scene in far less time than that. Long before they arrived though the terrorists were contained and not harming the general public though still very dangerous.

Response times for most places in the U.S. are between 3 and 6 minutes, though there are places with longer times as well.

That said, even 3 minutes is a horrifyingly long time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Response times for most places in the U.S. are between 3 and 6 minutes, though there are places with longer times as well.

That said, even 3 minutes is a horrifyingly long time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

When the excrement hits the rotating cooling device, the pucker factor makes every second seem like an eternity.

The taste of copper, the need to urinate and/or vomit, the conscious consideration of one's own mortality, all of these things are experiences most never have and glad they should be that they don't.

As some who defend the private ownership of firearms like to say, "When seconds count, help is minutes away."

 

[Tez3]

Response times for most places in the U.S. are between 3 and 6 minutes, though there are places with longer times as well.

That said, even 3 minutes is a horrifyingly long time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The response time from police officers was well within your parameters, what took longer was the armed response teams response. As I said the terrorists were contained well before the firearms teams arrived. One thing to consider is that the terrorists wore suicide vests, these were determined to have been fakes after the event but this wasn't known at the time. A high level of shooting ability is needed in these cases because you shoot a couple of times, miss or just injure then they 'press the button' and a bomb goes off similar to the one that killed so many in Manchester, multiple this by three and you have a bloody great crater in the middle of London and many, many dead. the Manchester bomb contained nuts, bolt, ball bearing and pieces of metal that can fly considerable distances after the explosion.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

8 minutes is a horrifyingly long time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Maybe. The point is though that the armed officers didn't waste time waving the guns around trying to negotiate with the attackers, they just went in and shot to kill.

 

[Tez3]

Maybe. The point is though that the armed officers didn't waste time waving the guns around trying to negotiate with the attackers, they just went in and shot to kill.

They had to didn't they, they couldn't allow them to detonate the bombs. I would suggest however that in the USA knowing that all police are armed as well as many civilians, the situation would be changed. There wouldn't be any attacks with knives or guns but a straightforward suicide bomb. Someone would walk into a place where there are plenty of people and simply detonate the bomb, no chance for anyone to stop them.

 

[lklawson]

A high level of shooting ability is needed in these cases

Less instruction, time, and practice than is usually required to get to green belt in most martial arts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

They had to didn't they, they couldn't allow them to detonate the bombs. I would suggest however that in the USA knowing that all police are armed as well as many civilians, the situation would be changed. There wouldn't be any attacks with knives or guns but a straightforward suicide bomb. Someone would walk into a place where there are plenty of people and simply detonate the bomb, no chance for anyone to stop them.

Wellll... about that.

No.

Guns and knives are still the common way of attacking, and, yes, it happens to us too. Suicide Vests don't seem to be particularly common here yet. I can't remember hearing of one, actually.

Conversely, we just recently had a Richard Cranium yelling Aloha Snackbar and stabbing a cop. And terrorist shooting teams are around too. They often use bombs but, so far, not many suicide vests.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

Less instruction, time, and practice than is usually required to get to green belt in most martial arts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah of course, very easy, in other words, for Americans it's just Brits who need psychologically tested, trained marksmen used to working in urban areas against terrorists instead of arming every Tom, Dick and Harry.
Specialist Rifle Officers (SRO)
Specialist Rifle Officers are experienced AFOs who have been trained to use sniper/marksman rifles. They deploy rifle teams in support of SCO19 pre-planned operations, typically setting up overwatch at vantage points overlooking an incident.

Rifle team weapons include scoped H&K G3K semi-automatic rifles.


CTSFOs (Counter Terrorist Specialist Firearms Officers)

CTSFOs are another proactive element of SCO19. Their role includes counter terrorism and hostage rescue. Like TSTs, CTSFO teams provide firearms support to other Met specialist units and may operate in both an overt and covert manner. CTSFO teams are on standby to respond to a terrorist or major crime incident both in London and at the National level.

SCO19 CTSFOs are organized into 6 CTSFO Inspectors, an Operational Senior Manager and 7 teams. Each team consists of 1 Sergeant leading 15 Constables. [2]

CTSFO units may be called to storm buildings, planes, buses, trains and boats, both docked and underway. These operations requires that CTSFOs receive a higher level of training than the Tactical Support Teams. Like TST Officers, CTSFOs have served as ARV Officers before going through their own extensive selection and training process.

SCO19 - Weapons | Glock 17 | MP5 | G36 | Sig SG 516 | G3K

yep just like getting a green belt.

 

[Tez3]

Wellll... about that.

No.

Guns and knives are still the common way of attacking, and, yes, it happens to us too. Suicide Vests don't seem to be particularly common here yet. I can't remember hearing of one, actually.

Conversely, we just recently had a Richard Cranium yelling Aloha Snackbar and stabbing a cop. And terrorist shooting teams are around too. They often use bombs but, so far, not many suicide vests.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I bow to your superior anti terrorist knowledge, obviously my 40 odd years of knowledge and experience in this subject is totally worthless.

I'm not sure why you are being so snarky about this, London had nothing to do with you, your police deal with things differently that's it, doesn't make anyone else's police less efficient, less brave or less anything, just different.

 

[lklawson]

Yeah of course, very easy, in other words, for Americans it's just Brits who need psychologically tested, trained marksmen used to working in urban areas against terrorists instead of arming every Tom, Dick and Harry.
Specialist Rifle Officers (SRO)
Specialist Rifle Officers are experienced AFOs who have been trained to use sniper/marksman rifles. They deploy rifle teams in support of SCO19 pre-planned operations, typically setting up overwatch at vantage points overlooking an incident.

Rifle team weapons include scoped H&K G3K semi-automatic rifles.


CTSFOs (Counter Terrorist Specialist Firearms Officers)

CTSFOs are another proactive element of SCO19. Their role includes counter terrorism and hostage rescue. Like TSTs, CTSFO teams provide firearms support to other Met specialist units and may operate in both an overt and covert manner. CTSFO teams are on standby to respond to a terrorist or major crime incident both in London and at the National level.

SCO19 CTSFOs are organized into 6 CTSFO Inspectors, an Operational Senior Manager and 7 teams. Each team consists of 1 Sergeant leading 15 Constables. [2]

CTSFO units may be called to storm buildings, planes, buses, trains and boats, both docked and underway. These operations requires that CTSFOs receive a higher level of training than the Tactical Support Teams. Like TST Officers, CTSFOs have served as ARV Officers before going through their own extensive selection and training process.

SCO19 - Weapons | Glock 17 | MP5 | G36 | Sig SG 516 | G3K

yep just like getting a green belt.

Look, believe me or don't. It doesn't change the facts.

You claimed that it takes "A high level of shooting ability" to offer effective firearm response on a target with restricted targeting areas, specifically no shooting in the chest and a preference for making CNS hits (i.e.: Head Shots).

I have taken people with absolutely no experience with pistols and had them shooting "head shot" target sizes at combat distances in a few hours. Add in moving target, (sometimes) moving shooter, stress, and background and it takes a couple dozen hours with competent instructors and maybe 50 or 60 hours of practice to make consistent head shots at combat distances. How much time, practice, and direct instruction does it take you to get students to green belt? I'm guessing the typical is 1.5 years at 2 two-hour classes per week or somewhere around 156 hours of instruction (maybe more).

Heck, British Pistol Instructor C.D. Tracy was teaching raw recruits to shoot this well in WWI with a frick'n Webley.

Mock if you want but the honest truth is that the requisite skills are not all that inaccessible. What makes it difficult is if the prospective student doesn't have access to the instruction, tools, or places to practice. Maybe they can't access instruction, tools, and practice because of cost (it can be expensive), or because of laws, or social stigma. Whatever. Regardless, it takes more training to get the skills of a green belt then the skills of a combat distance head shot with a pistol.

 

[lklawson]

I bow to your superior anti terrorist knowledge, obviously my 40 odd years of knowledge and experience in this subject is totally worthless.

What the heck are you talking about? I haven't discounted anything. I said that 8 minutes as a sitting duck in front of rampaging blades is a frick'n eternity. How is that, at all, controversial?

Then you wrote that, "I would suggest however that in the USA knowing that all police are armed as well as many civilians, the situation would be changed. There wouldn't be any attacks with knives or guns but a straightforward suicide bomb." I replied that you are wrong. I can see how that would make you pissy. No one likes being wrong, but the simple fact is that the U.S. is NOT seeing suicide bomb terror attacks in preference to shooting and stabbing attacks. Apparently your "40 odd y ears of knowledge and experience in the subject" didn't cover what is happening in the U.S.

I'm not sure why you are being so snarky about this,

From my perspective it looks like you are the one being snarky.

London had nothing to do with you, your police deal with things differently

Did I say any different?

doesn't make anyone else's police less efficient, less brave or less anything, just different.

Again, what the heck are you talking about? I didn't write any of that.

Maybe you're reading in a bias that I didn't write.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah whatever. I'm not claiming anything, by saying this you are being confrontational. I have been an armed officer for many years including tours in Afghanistan ( instructing Afghan police who were just as likely to shoot us as any target) and other places, so what would I know about terrorism, suicide bombers etc etc.

 

[Tez3]

I said that 8 minutes as a sitting duck in front of rampaging blades is a frick'n eternity.

Who was a sitting duck? I already told you the terrorists were contained until the armed officers could shoot them.
I also told you about the training in working in built up areas, I'm not nor was I talking about police officers who carry 'everyday' weapons.

 

[lklawson]

Yeah whatever. I'm not claiming anything, by saying this you are being confrontational. I have been an armed officer for many years including tours in Afghanistan ( instructing Afghan police who were just as likely to shoot us as any target) and other places, so what would I know about terrorism, suicide bombers etc etc.

Apparently your tours weren't in the U.S. because you are still wrong, and now deflecting, about there being a preference for suicide bombing in the U.S. over shooting and stabbing.

 

[Tez3]

Mock if you want but the honest truth is that the requisite skills are not all that inaccessible.

The requisite skills to be a British specialised firearms officer? which of course is what I was talking about.