A kata for self defense

[DaveB]

If you had to choose one kata to teach self defense/fighting what would it be and what principles would you use from the kata?

 

[Oldbear343]

• Chon Ji - it is the most solid basic foundation:

Block, counter (no first attack)
Turning to multiple directions/opponents
Weight forward, back
Balance
Rhythm
Distancing - moving forward to strike after blocking
Moving forward, back
Blocks can be adapted into grabs to control/pull on/throw

Well, someone had to go first....

PLEASE DISREGARD - in my eagerness I overlooked the slightly fundamental fact this is a Japanese art thread - sorry!

 

[DaveB]

• Chon Ji - it is the most solid basic foundation:

Block, counter (no first attack)
Turning to multiple directions/opponents
Weight forward, back
Balance
Rhythm
Distancing - moving forward to strike after blocking
Moving forward, back
Blocks can be adapted into grabs to control/pull on/throw

Well, someone had to go first....

PLEASE DISREGARD - in my eagerness I overlooked the slightly fundamental fact this is a Japanese art thread - sorry!

All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. TKD is a karate off-shoot anyway.

One question, what use would you have for rhythm in self defense?

 

[Zero]

All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. TKD is a karate off-shoot anyway.

One question, what use would you have for rhythm in self defense?

I should really let Oldbear respond as is his point I guess.

But this is a good question with respect to a self defence context, I guess I kind of agree with your query/point, but I'm throwing in my two cents anyway.

From my experience, rhythm and cadence can be a key skill towards winning a fight, be it a sanctioned tournament or on the street. To have deceptive rhythm that disrupts your opponent's attack or deceives them as to your offensive moves and the timing of your strikes and counters is a high level and valuable skill. Sometimes people have this just naturally but this generally only comes to most, if at all, after a lot of fight time, sparring and training.

However, SD can be quite different to a fight where you have "squared off" against another. There is often not the time, opportunity or the desire/need to engage in anything other than a brutal and fast action/re-action, rather than a more drawn out exchange of blows or moves including feints, etc.
So unless the attack morphs into something more prolonged beyond the initial assault and response, so that it resembles more of a "fight" due to a certain stalemate between the assailant and intended "victim", there may not necessarily be the environment for rhythm applying.

But that is not to say given a certain SD situation, the use of rhythm could not apply, and from the get-go, and be of an advantage. It's just in my view and from limited but real SD experience that you want an altercation to be ended very quickly and to be on your way, rather than being drawn into a situation where rhythm, etc and the finer skills of the fight need apply.

 

[Zero]

• 
  

Well, someone had to go first....

PLEASE DISREGARD - in my eagerness I overlooked the slightly fundamental fact this is a Japanese art thread - sorry!

Don't worry, am glad you did. There's an unspoken, uneasy, underlying underbelly to MT regarding this whole karate sub-forum coming under the "Japanese" section, it's well know that without Okinawa (and China before that) that there is no karate. Simply a kara do...

 

[Jacky Zuki]

For me it would be Naifanchi for its sideways progression. I have been attacked twice on the street and both times it has been at a cashpoint/ATM where being able to defend against an attack from the side saved me from being stuck halfway around the world without a penny.

 

[DaveB]

So what principles would you cover?

 

[Jacky Zuki]

Blocking and punching to the side, cross-stepping out of danger or into range while guarding against someone attacking from under your arm, grabs and takedowns while facing a wall, creating enough space to grab your card, throw some cash into the air and leg it. The fact that ATMs have cameras built in almost guarantees an attack from the side rather than from behind, it is also easier to punch someone in the kidneys and grab the card and cash from the side than reaching around them. Its one of those weird situations where something highly specialized gains a new application due to modern living.

 

[Oldbear343]

For me it would be Naifanchi for its sideways progression. I have been attacked twice on the street and both times it has been at a cashpoint/ATM where being able to defend against an attack from the side saved me from being stuck halfway around the world without a penny.

Good point ☺

 

[Oldbear343]

All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. TKD is a karate off-shoot anyway.

One question, what use would you have for rhythm in self defense?

To make the counter follow smoothly from the block, and also to promote repeated follow-up Strikes (as in wing chun)....

 

[Oldbear343]

Don't worry, am glad you did. There's an unspoken, uneasy, underlying underbelly to MT regarding this whole karate sub-forum coming under the "Japanese" section, it's well know that without Okinawa (and China before that) that there is no karate. Simply a kara do...

Thanks - if I were building a new syllabus (and who hasn't played around with that?!), I would certainly include tkd and goju kata....

 

[Oldbear343]

I should really let Oldbear respond as is his point I guess.

But this is a good question with respect to a self defence context, I guess I kind of agree with your query/point, but I'm throwing in my two cents anyway.

From my experience, rhythm and cadence can be a key skill towards winning a fight, be it a sanctioned tournament or on the street. To have deceptive rhythm that disrupts your opponent's attack or deceives them as to your offensive moves and the timing of your strikes and counters is a high level and valuable skill. Sometimes people have this just naturally but this generally only comes to most, if at all, after a lot of fight time, sparring and training.

However, SD can be quite different to a fight where you have "squared off" against another. There is often not the time, opportunity or the desire/need to engage in anything other than a brutal and fast action/re-action, rather than a more drawn out exchange of blows or moves including feints, etc.
So unless the attack morphs into something more prolonged beyond the initial assault and response, so that it resembles more of a "fight" due to a certain stalemate between the assailant and intended "victim", there may not necessarily be the environment for rhythm applying.

But that is not to say given a certain SD situation, the use of rhythm could not apply, and from the get-go, and be of an advantage. It's just in my view and from limited but real SD experience that you want an altercation to be ended very quickly and to be on your way, rather than being drawn into a situation where rhythm, etc and the finer skills of the fight need apply.

Yes, broken rhythm can be interesting, similar to feinting in boxing, dropping one shoulder etc, but as you rightly say, in real-time SD there is often little time in my experience for being creative!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you had to choose one kata to teach self defense/fighting what would it be and what principles would you use from the kata?

All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Don't choose form (Kata) that were created by others, create that form (Kata) all by yourself. This way you will have all the freedom that you need.

The form (Kata) is like a book. No matter how many books that you have read through your life time, soon or later you will need to write your own book. Otherwise, you will be like just a copy machine, no more and no less. Even the best copy machine, the quality will get worse and worse.

Try to use your knowledge to create. Here is an example:

 

[tigercrane]

I just joined this forum and immediately saw this thread. You raise an interesting question. Kung Fu Wang already stated above that the more you practice Kata or Form, the more you learn to liberate yourself from its limitations. The Kata (form) becomes you and your art (whatever this may be) becomes you and molds to you.

Another aspect of it is that a Kata (form) is absolutely nothing but an empty shell without application (Bunkai - japanese).

Application may vary depending on objective and is not as rigid as Kata itself. This means that you learn to use block as attack or instead of punch you use an open hand.

Kata is not meant to be changed. Application is and should be when needed.

Lastly, no matter what Kata you think of as your favorite, it will not help you in self-defense situation if you can't deliver a powerful strike to stop the offender.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This guy used

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under hooks,
- knee strike,
- outer hook,

and took his opponent down twice within 15 seconds. You can't find this combo in any Chinese form or Japanese Kata. It's 100% "self-created" sequence and it works.

 

[DaveB]

I just joined this forum and immediately saw this thread. You raise an interesting question. Kung Fu Wang already stated above that the more you practice Kata or Form, the more you learn to liberate yourself from its limitations. The Kata (form) becomes you and your art (whatever this may be) becomes you and molds to you.

Another aspect of it is that a Kata (form) is absolutely nothing but an empty shell without application (Bunkai - japanese).

Application may vary depending on objective and is not as rigid as Kata itself. This means that you learn to use block as attack or instead of punch you use an open hand.

Kata is not meant to be changed. Application is and should be when needed.

Lastly, no matter what Kata you think of as your favorite, it will not help you in self-defense situation if you can't deliver a powerful strike to stop the offender.

This guy used

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under hooks,
- knee strike,
- outer hook,

and took his opponent down twice within 15 seconds. You can't find this combo in any Chinese form or Japanese Kata. It's 100% "self-created" sequence and it works.

Gentlemen, both these posts are interesting and worthy of their own threads, but they are some way off the topic at hand.

The point was to see what kind of self defense principles people attribute to specific kata.

The use of forms or when/how we transend them is a bit beyond the scope.

 

[Oldbear343]

Gentlemen, both these posts are interesting and worthy of their own threads, but they are some way off the topic at hand.

The point was to see what kind of self defense principles people attribute to specific kata.

The use of forms or when/how we transend them is a bit beyond the scope.

Well said ☺

 

[tigercrane]

To stay on topic, I'd say that Seisan kata is amongst my favorite ones. It uses both kicks and strong punches. I also like the linear defense - offense it has. It is simple and has good application such as groin strike

For tight spaces I'd go with Naihanchi hands down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The point was to see what kind of self defense principles people attribute to specific kata.

Different MA systems have different principles.

- Taiji has 13 principles,
- praying mantis has 20 principles (8 hard 12 soft principles),
- Zimen has 18 principles,
- long fist has 8 principles,
- Shuai Chiao has 60 principles,
- ...

Also the striking art uses different set of principles that's used in the grappling art.

If you have cross trained, you will have mixed principles from different MA systems. When you use principles from any particular form/kata, you are limited by the principles used in that particular MA system. When you create your own form/Kata, you can add in principles from different MA systems.

For example, you can add

- Taiji Peng principle,
- prating mantis Diao principle,
- Zimen sticky principle,
- long fist dodging principle
- Shuai Chiao tearing principle
- ...

into the form that you have created. This way, you are free and you are not restricted by any MA system. You are the master. Your form/kata is only your slave.

 

[K-man]

First up, can I say I disagree totally with anyone who suggests you make up your own kata. Why would you bother when there are dozens of kata available developed by masters over decades?

For me, I like seyunchin. It has a natural flow to it with high strikes followed by low strikes, elbows to the ribs, arm bars etc, etc. But really, it doesn't matter. Just pick a kata you like and study it.