A kata for self defense

Discussion in 'Karate' started by DaveB, Jul 17, 2015.

  1. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would say any of the Wado Ryu Pinan series not just Nidan. :)
    I think you could quite happily just stick to them without going 'higher'.
     
  2. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    But what principles would you treach from gekisai or pinan nidan to enable the student.
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Who's that addressed to? I don't know gekisai so am thinking it can't be me! :)
     
  4. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Hmm, I did forget to answer the question fully, didn't I? Well, I don't want to get into this too much. I'm not in a place where I can write for very long about principles and harmonies and such, but...

    My own understanding of karate always involves getting offline from an attack and then connecting with the attacker and countering in some way. Frequently at our beginner level of study, "connecting" means a rudimentary form of trapping the limb or grabbing the limb to set you up for the strike. More advanced studies branch off into uprooting, throwing or locking, but I generally boil everything down into close range applications.

    Watch this video for an idea of what I teach from the Gekisai series. It's not exactly the same as how we do things, but you can get a good picture of where I go with this, though more influenced as I am by aiki practices.

     
  5. MatsumuraKarate

    MatsumuraKarate Yellow Belt

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    If I am picking one to teach it would be Naihanchi Shodan. From my experience it is the most complete kata I know and is one of the easiest to dissect.
     
  6. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Thanks for expanding on your original post.

    I like the direction of your applications as indicated by the video. It implies you use a core of striking techniques that are supported by control techniques as opposed to the other way around.

    And what principles do you feel are applicable to self defence in Naihanchi?
     
  7. MatsumuraKarate

    MatsumuraKarate Yellow Belt

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    It teaches solid stances and proper body mechanics.
     
  8. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Thanks.
     
  9. Koshiki

    Koshiki Brown Belt

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    As much of a huge fan of Naihanchi as I am, I might be tempted to opt for Pion (Pinan) Nidan, although Godan would run a close second.

    In my style Pinan Nidan is slightly different than I usually see it performed by others, but perhaps more than any other Kata I know most clearly emphasizes the need for each and every motion to be a potential fight-ender, but to also better your position and control of the situation so that, while striving for each motion to finish the fight, you are not relying on it. Specifically in the first sequence, performed in both directions, and the returning sequence "down the middle," the bit entailing the right arm scoop, front kick, left punch, scoop, front kick, punch, double forearm or equivalent in most styles.

    Pinan Nidan might not have the nuance of some other kata, but that's part of it's appeal. A couple weeks ago I visited a school and was working with a teen who had clearly never studied application. All I gave him was advice about assuming the "chambered" hand had something in it and within a few minutes, he had taken that section I just described and basically fallen into more or less the same basic application I would have suggested, entailing a series of controls and strikes which "climb" into the opponent, bettering your control of them, affording strikes, and destroying their structure.

    That's why I like Pinan Nidan. It's obvious and effective, and not very reliant on sensitivity or nuance. It's a great starter platform for self-defense.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    On the topic of self-created forms. This is something I quite enjoy doing. I pretty much always have a kata I'm working on and practicing of my own creation. However, these aren't something I study, they aren't something I plan on remembering, and they certainly aren't something I would want to see immortalized in the canon of any style.

    To me, it's a great way to reapply tactics, principles, and applications from my training. It helps me really firm up ideas found in the traditional kata. Also, sometimes, figuring out how I would represent an application or sequence in the context of my own kata gives me insight into ways to apply sequences from other kata. And it has the perq of being just a heckuva a lot of fun.

    Plus, hace 20 aƱos, when I'm the most famed Karateka in all the land and have just defeated 20 corrupt officials in a bar fight, and have swarms of eager young would-be disciples begging me for instruction, I'll be ready to encode my innovative and game-changing style in kata for the benefit of future generations.
     
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  10. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sorry, I cannot. Each kata brings different tools and techniques into focus. And every time I feel I have come to appreciate one kata over another, or to understand one better than another, new applications, new understanding, and new appreciation unfolds. It's all one thing.
     
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  11. mixedup

    mixedup White Belt

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    I'm gonna go with Saifa. Good things come in small packages.

    If you subscribe with the theory that kata are replicated left and right, then throw away one half, (let's say the left half, for instance) then the whole right half of the kata is a non stop series of movements designed to incapacitate really quickly.

    Except the opening sequence, which repeats once on the left and twice on the right, possibly because there are far more right handed people out there waiting to attack. Just do one!

    If anyone has tried splitting a kata in half and joining up the bunkai how did it go? I've practised this hundreds of times and I can visualise the opponent right from the beginning, but have no willing training partner for bunkai - they all just want it to look gold-medal-perfect!
     
  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I love Saiha/Saifa. IMO it's a short and brutally effective kata. Very little straight forward movement (some systems do the opening sequence of elbow to backfist in kiba dachi in a straight line; we do it at 45 degrees); lots of angles, lateral movement and 180 degree turns. Very few traditional punches and kicks. Rather, it's elbows, backfists, hammer fists, sweeps, joint locks, etc. Each sequence can be used on its own or transition into the next easily.

    Most of this can be said of any kata, but Saiha just makes so much sense to me. I can easily visualize an opponent and simple and direct bunkai that I feel would end an encounter very quickly.

    For instance, an opponent grabs/pushes on you. Step 45 degrees to their side, circular elbow strike to their jaw. Keep/trap their arm (you're still at their side), drop your weight straight down into horse stance, pull their arm in and backfist to their nose that's coming at you. Need more? (Skip the 2 more repeats of that sequence) and step laterally left, sweep their legs out, break the elbow with that weird looking arm movement that people think is a low block and middle block at the same time, front kick to their groin, ribs, or whatever target that's calling your name.

    I'd make a video and post it to make it easier to see, but I'm not YouTube savvy.
     
  13. mixedup

    mixedup White Belt

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    I'm with you here. Why does everyone insist that this is two blocks? To my eye it's a basic armbar. I'm not sure on the kick, I have wondered whether instead it's a setup for a throw, and the emphasis should be on the return of the leg, literally sweeping the attacker off his feet. He'll already be off balance from the armbar.

    I think I'll start a thread about it, I'd love to get other MA's opinion.
     
  14. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I've seen some systems throw the kick(s) from standing on one foot. Seido Juku being a Kyokushin offshoot, we transition from backward leaning stance to cat stance when the kick is thrown.

    My opinion is the kick is there if it's needed or can be used at the moment. If there's an opening, use it. If not, don't. Or, it can be changed to a heel kick/stomp if the opponent is on the ground and there's an open target.
     
  15. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I should've added this to my previous post...

    I've seen that "block" interpreted as a neck crank. I think Iain Abernathy did it as such. I think it was way too complicated. I think could work that way, but I think it's not likely to work well.

    I've also seen it used as a sticky hands bunkai.

    I think I'm a bit too critical of a lot of the bunkai out there. A lot of it seems too complex and over the top. IMO, it shouldn't be more than 3-4 steps tops.

    Iain Abernathy has some good bunkai, but it just gets to be a bit much. George Dillman (even a broken clock is right twice a day) had some pretty good bunkai before he went off the deep end with his no touch knockouts. At the end of his Advanced Pressure Point Fighting of Ryukyu Kempo book, he breaks down Naihanchi kata pretty well, just take his KOs in it with a grain of salt.
     
  16. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    If it's the one I'm thinking of then It could also be used to defend against an attempted grab for a body slam when they grab with one arm under the groin and the other over the shoulder.
     
  17. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    The 10th count or so, depending on how you do it/break down the counts, if the step is 1, elbow is 2, and backfist in kiba dachi is 3, repeated 2 more times.

    I can kind of visualize what you're saying with defending that. I'll try to play around with it. My old dojo had some open floor time and a steps rate open space where we could warm up while another class was going on. A few of us (and our Sensei every now and then) would get together and mess around with bunkai. Our Sensei would kind of watch out of the corner of his eye and give pointers every now and then, but for the most part he'd let us do our thing. My current dojo is a part time one, so there's not a lot of time outside of class. Gotta get back in the habit of messing around with bunkai again.

    Another step I like in Saiha is the "high block," turn 180 degrees, stomp and hammer fist. I interpret it as an elbow break or strike to the triceps, turn 180 degrees (while keeping the arm), hammer fist to the back of the head/neck or whatever is showing. The knee going up can be a knee kick or to get more momentum, and the stomp can be used to the top of the foot or whatever else is there.
     
  18. Kenpoguy123

    Kenpoguy123 Purple Belt

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    In kenpo anything from short form 3 up because those all use self defence techniques that are in the system and shows how to do them on both sides and flow from one to the other
     
  19. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

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    Long 2. Mainly for the flow in Section 1 and the power generation taught for the reverse punch, step thru running punch, and the mid stride punch taught in Section 4.
     
  20. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    That is limiting and true to a business model. LOL123
     

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