A baton is ineffective

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by jaime_lion, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I absolutely believe that I could readily smash someone’s shin who has been training iron shin. It does not make you impervious.

    Shin conditioning (which is all iron shin is) can thicken the shin bone through repeated hammering, which causes additional bone growth and toughens the bone. It can also reduce the perception of pain by damaging the nerves, which might be practical in the short run, but is a bad thing in the long run. Seriously, you want to keep your nerves. Life is more pleasant when you can feel things, and the perception of pain warns you when you are injured and might need life-saving medical treatment. The perception of pain is a very important life-saving trait.

    Shin conditioning therefor can make the shin less susceptible to breaking and can make it somewhat easier for someone to shrug off a hit to the shin.

    But I assure you, I could still smash a shin with my sticks. He is gonna feel it, and it will destroy his support platform making it impossible for him to stand.

    Shin conditioning can make the shins tougher, but it is not a magic spell.
     
  2. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    So how do you know that you would be able to do this? Maybe I am "drinking the kool-aid" but I find this hard to believe.

    I believe I have said this before on here. But as long as I dont die tomorrow and live till I am 60 or such. I will be proud if I have arthritis and such due to iron palm. Because I am a martial artist and a warrior.
     
  3. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    60 really isn't much of a target with regard longevity.

    And yeah, be a proud martial artist who can't wipe because you can't grip the toilet paper.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Arthritis is a more significant issue than you seem to think. I try not to trade much of my future quality of life for what I want to accomplish today. I'm sure I'll have a few extra aches and pains because of what I've wanted to do and achieve, but I try to keep that to a minimum. I do a better job of that now than I did in my 20's.
     
  5. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Do you practice iron palm or such?
     
  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I could not get the video to run.
     
  7. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Because i took the video down. Thought everyone that was going to post had seen it. Also it could be done better.
     
  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I have a really hard time with that video. An extremely vague identification of what is and is not legal. Made up non numbers. A lot of BS. IMHO
    IF you happen to be walking around with a baton AND it de-escalates a situation below a firing solution that is a win-win every time. I do agree that they have diminishing effects on people who are drunk or high.
     
  9. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Ah, the ignorance of youth. I applaud the mentality but there is gravity to our choices.
     
  10. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Did you watch the playlist he made of the times a baton did not work?
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yep, yer drinking the kool aid.

    Trading a little arthritis for a body-conditioning practice that is completely unnecessary in the reality of today? Idiotic.

    Perhaps 300 years ago in China, when people needed to fight to protect their families and villages, When there was no police force to call for help, or if a police force existed it was used as a tool to oppress the commoners for the benefit of the elites, and the average life expectancy of a commoner might have been 40-50 years, it was a reasonable trade. But today? Hogwash.

    Long ago people didn’t tend to live long enough to experience the longer term results of bad practice. Now, you probably will. You don’t want to get arthritis at 50 or 60, and life another 30-40 years with that constant pain that you did to yourself, for what amounts to bragging rights.

    Now, people need to be able to hold a good job until their 70s, that means typing and other fine motor skills. If you’ve deadened your hands and arms? Tough to make a living. Your need for the possibility of self defense today does not justify that.

    And how do I know I could still smash those bones with a good stick? That does not take heavy research to understand. I should not need to explain that to you.
     
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  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you are practicing iron palm and you are anticipating eventual arthritis from it, you are probably not training it correctly. You need a good teacher, this is not something to go off of YouTube instruction, and you need a high quality dit ja jow.

    And I could still smash your bones with a good stick.
     
  13. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    Please explain it to me. I would very much like to know.

    Does dit da jow work? I dont see any other systems using it. Do muay thai or karate use dit da jow? I am doing an experiment. I am pretty much just training my right hand. My left hand is being left alone.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    No.
     
  15. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Iron palm needs good instruction. I am not a good instructor, I don’t practice it, I don’t know the methods, I don’t mess with it because I don’t want to get injured. Good instructors are not easily found, this is an aspect of martial training that is not common.

    A fellow by the name of Dale Dugass practices and teaches iron palm, and he sometimes posts here. I don’t remember if he posts under a pseudonym or if it is under his real name, but send him a message and ask for guidance.

    Dit da jow is used in the Chinese methods, it is an herbal lineament that helps tissue heal. Not all jow is equally good, not all jow is appropriate for iron palm. You need to use the right stuff, as recipes vary and are often held as a secret. It isn’t something you can simply find in the grocery store. You need a good source, and brewing it can take a long time, not something you whip up in the kitchen over a weekend, it needs to age properly, I believe for years at a time. Best to find someone who makes it and sells it.

    Proper training practices with proper use of good and appropriate jow creates a conditioning that does not leave you crippled with a numb, club-like appendage. Your hand should still be completely useable as a hand.

    I don’t know if the Japanese or Thai methods use similar methods to Iron Palm, or if they have an equivalent lineament to dit da jow. If their methods result in numb or malformed appendages, then I suspect not.

    But the bottom line is, you need a good teacher and a good jow, and you need to follow the instructions, or you can damage your body doing it.

    And in my opinion, given how difficult it can be to find a good teacher, I feel the training is not necessary. You can do some general conditioning like hitting a heavy bag, it helps and wont destroy your hands, and if you find a decent jow (they can be found in shops in the Chinatowns in big cities) it will help even if it is not good enough for iron palm. For the needs of today, that is sufficient. Real iron palm is overkill, and should be avoided if you aren’t absolutely certain that you are getting good instruction.
     
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  16. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Blue Belt

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    Using a baton/escrima stick effectively has at least 4 elements: Striking a proper target, i.e. knee, wrist, head, etc. Using proper striking technique, knowing how to maximize power at point of impact. Using flow to quickly land multiple hits. And the last thing that comes to mind is employing the empty hand in conjunction with the stick (or using double sticks.)
     
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  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Yes, I watched the video. I saw a lot of circular double-speak. Not much else.
     
  18. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    My biggest issue is if you dont practice it why are you posting like you do? Second you act like you cant just buy this stuff on amazon. It is not 2005 anymore the internet is a great place to buy stuff.

    I am not in need of an instructor I already have a wing chun instructor. Already knew that about dit da jow. My questions on the japanese and muay thai traditions was a bit rhetorical. I am pretty sure they dont use dit da jow.

    Here is the first 2 lines taken from this wikipedia entry on dit da jow.

    Dit da jow - Wikipedia

    Dit da jow is a common Chinese liniment used as a folk remedy to supposedly heal external injuries, such as bruises or sore muscles. There is no scientific evidence that it works as stated.

    Does dit da jow work any better than tylenol and ben gay or other over the counter stuff? I am going to go with no.
     
  19. jaime_lion

    jaime_lion Orange Belt

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    I am not talking about the individual video that was posted I am talking about the playlist he talks about in the video. Did you watch all 11 videos in that playlist?
     
  20. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    No. I will still argue that 11 youtube videos are a terrible sampling to make such a broad decision. A baton is a tool. The first few times you pick up any tool it is likely not going to work very well for you. It takes a lot of practice to get proficient with it. Then start adding in all the other factors in an altercation. Such as proficiency with the baton, physical attributes, your experience, attackers experience, your intent, attackers intent, attackers mental/physical state, reaction time, etc...
    Two circles on a white board and a dozen videos are not enough to convince me.


    ***Edit***I have used a baton (PR-24)successfully many times. They are a good deterrent and restraint tool if you know how to use them. They can be cumbersome if you have no backup. I have found myself in a bit of a stand-off situation a few times where I had one or both hand busy with the baton, making it hard to apply cuffs.123
     
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