8th Degree Promotion. Is this a Joke?

Discussion in 'Modern Arnis' started by Kenpo viking, Aug 12, 2003.

  1. Kenpo viking

    Kenpo viking Guest

    This has to be the joke of the year. Dan Anderson has promoted himself to 8th degree he didn’t even take the time to stop at seventh. But I may be wrong In that case when, were and under who did he test for 7th degree. I don’t care if they done great things or has the time to step up but self-promotion wwwwooooo that will you make you a better martial artist. Or is it ego and not standing that there are others who are better and have been at the art longer then himself.

    http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html
     
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  2. Disco

    Disco Guest

    Asking for permission from people who are not in the same dicipline I guess is acceptable:confused:
     
  3. Ender

    Ender Black Belt

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    Well, from what I read in here, after a certain level, if you make stuff up, you get promoted..*L...seems silly to me.
     
  4. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    Just a friendly suggestion folks. Be polite say an give your thoughts if you wish but be polite.
    Now haveing aid that I ill say that if a person is the head of their oganization they must leave room for thoes under them to grow
    giving onself a higher ank creats this room.
    I am not part of Modern Arnis and I will not judge what should be done or not done under that banner. If the man is the head instuctor, head of that part of the system, etc. whom are we to critisize what he dose with in the confines of his system.
    With no one higher inhis organization whom would you suggest prmote him. There is no one with in his system and organisation
    If he deserves the rank or not is not my place to say (as an outsider)
    I judge heads of systems by what they teach and by what their students do not on how many stripes are on the belt

    tshadowchaser:asian:
     
  5. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    I'm a little closer to the issue then most of you. I'll say that first of all Dan ademently said in the begining that MA-80 was not it's own system, style, or organization; it was just his name for his interpretation of Modern Arnis.

    Also, he is part of an organization, at least as it stands today. That organization is the WMAA. It has a technical director, and board of directors to determine rank in cases such as these. I am on the board of directors. We had all made the decision that we would promote Dan to 7th happily if he learned the WMAA curiculum. Dan didn't even have to use this curiculum for his own students; he just had to know it so that we would all be on the "same page" for belt promotions and events. Dan was even given a "position" in our organization as a West Coast Technical Director. I am sure this was done with the foresight that he would learn the curiculum eventually, and recieve his 7th through a WMAA promotion. As a board member this was my understanding and hope, anyways. Learning the white to black belt curiculum is somewhat important because it ensures that we maintain quality in our system; Modern Arnis.

    Since it was only the white to black belt curriculum, and it was Modern Arnis and not some other system, surely a "Senior Master" and 6th degree could have easily learned it. It wasn't like the board required him to learn a completely new system; for Dan it would have been just a matter of terminology, sequence, and MAYBE a new technique or two.

    But instead of doing that and getting backed by a viable organization (WMAA) for his rank of 7th, he chose otherwise. Apparently 7th wasn't good enough for Dan. Dan took it upon himself to promote himself to 8th, and getting outside endorsements for his self promotion through MA-80 as it's own style/organization (I am not sure which it is anymore), even though MA-80 was "not a seperate system or organization" as originally explained by its "founder."

    Needless to say as a board member, I feel underhanded. I am sure I am not alone on this. I was "suprised" to put it lightly, when I got the news.

    The only question I have is "Why." Why Dan....Why? :(

    PAUL:ticked:
     
  6. bloodwood

    bloodwood Guest

    This was a response to one of the Questions I asked Dan concerning promotion and system back in October of 2002. I guess he couldn't wait any longer.

    bloodwood
    "You have answered several questions but still not whether MA-80 is a new SYSTEM or Your Curriculum. There is quite a difference. As Founder MA-80, as you have often referred to yourself as, seems to imply that it IS a NEW SYSTEM and like it or not, accept it or not, YOU would be the Grand Master/10th degree and your system would be listed with others such as Modern Arnis, Balintawak, Doce Pares, Sayoc Kali and so on. If it is only your Curriculum for your school, that is a horse of a different color".

    Dan
    "As to 10th Degree, again, Nooooooooooo! Remy Presas promoted me to 6th Degree. I will not promote myself to 10th Degree. At this point in time, Modern Arnis 80 ends at 6th Degree. If I receive a promotion by an organized body of martial artists or separately by a senior martial artist, I would accept that promotion".
     
  7. Red Blade

    Red Blade Guest

    Where did the promotion actually come from? :asian:
     
  8. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Master of Arts

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    Folks,

    Any questions about the promotion or who did the promotion are answered in the petition itself. Kenpo Viking posted the url and you can read it. I have answered paul and Bloodwood privately and I will do so with others as well.

    Yours,
    Dan Anderson
     
  9. Red Blade

    Red Blade Guest

    :asian:
     
  10. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Master of Arts

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    I just got an email from Datu Dieter Knuettel who made a very good point - This promotion is a Modern Arnis 80 only. I want to make that very clear. Modern Arnis 80 only. Thanks, Dieter.

    Yours,
    Dan Anderson
     
  11. Red Blade

    Red Blade Guest

    Is there truly a difference between the two and if so, why not use a different name to eliminate any confusion?

    :confused:
     
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  12. Mickey

    Mickey Guest

    Dan Anderson may be one of the longest practicing Modern Arnis Players. He has a 6th degree and the title of Senior Master both from GM Remy A. Presas.

    Dan Anderson also has the title Professor and rank of 7th degree in American Karate (* My Apologies if the name is not correct *), an organization he created and runs.

    Mr. Anderson could have just added in the the Modern Arnis into his American Karate system, yet from recent posts and previosu posts it seems, he would think this to be disrespectful to his instructor in Modern Arnis GM Remy Presas.

    So, he has a Modern Arnis 80 or MA-80 Program/curriculum/syllabus/system/organization. He wishes to keep the two separate. This is fine. I noted that in another Thread that the WMAA has wished him good luck. It does not seem like there are any bad feelings here. In keeping them separate, he has two different marketing programs and the personal beliefs and honor of respecting the individual history and lineage of each system.

    Now as the leader/creator of a system one could be a grand master or other title that signifies this. As the creator of an organization his title could still be grand master, or any other title he chooses.

    Mr. Anderson has chosen to petition those in Martial Arts that I think he respects, for their acceptance of his usage of this rank and or titles. This is his way of handling the issue(s).

    Mr. Anderson can do anything he wants in his own system(s) or organization(s). It is his call.

    In My opinion, if he wants to do this, then good for him and I hope he does well. Yet, in life no matter what you do you will never please everyone. The real trick is to try to please yourself and those you care about.

    Best Regards

    Mick
    :asian:
     
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  13. DoxN4cer

    DoxN4cer Purple Belt

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    It was good enough for Renegade's Lakan Pito (7th dan) as shakey as it looked, and few people on this forum cared to discuss it. Look at Dan's web site and read carefully. Dan was promoted by a council of GM's as part of the WSHC.

    Tim Kashino
     
  14. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    For me, and for most others who are close to modern arnis, [a great system of martial arts where the "structure" all revolved around one man, Remy Presas] Datu Tim's promotion wasn't a problem.

    Let's examine why. In the case of Tim's promotion, a large group of Juniors (Tim's students, WMAA members, and non-members) pushed for Tim to promote himself to 8th or 9th immediatly after RP's passing. Tim declined any sort of move such as this, as he felt it was too soon for that sort of thing. So we all waited. Finally the WMAA Board decided to try to make it a reality after enough time had passed. We all voted on the promotion, and voted to promote him to 7th (we debated 8th, but knew that Tim wouldn't accept). Then we networked to get other GM's and seniors to further validate the promotion. These GM's understood that this was a Modern Arnis Promotion through the WMAA, not a promotion in Tim's own art. Therefore, they took careful consideration, and then gave their recommendation.

    When people train with Tim Hartman, their is no question that the promotion is a valid one.

    Now, Dan's case is different. The board wanted to promote Dan in a similar manner that we did Tim, but felt that we all needed to be "on the same page" with the white to black curriculum. We felt that for Dan to be promoted by the WMAA, he would need to be able to sit on the board as a high rank for a test and know what the organization standard is for whatever rank the "testee" is going for. Provided that Dan learned this curriculum, he would have recieved a 7th degree promotion through the WMAA in Modern Arnis in a similar fashion as Tim.

    There would be little disputing Dans rank if it occured in this manner.

    Dan's rank is a different animal then Tim's, however. It actually causes more controversy then Tim's, and creates more disagreements. Here are some issues people will/ have been taking:

    1. MA-80 is it's own style, created by Dan, based off Modern Arnis. Tim didn't create a style. Many people take issue with MA-80 as a style, and have so long before this rank stuff ever came up. The antagonists either don't think Dan should have made his own style, or they think that MA-80 is not differentiated enough to be called anything other then Modern Arnis.

    2. People who are specifically WMAA have taken issue with the promotion based off of the "Way" it was done. In their eyes, Dan was offered a promotion on only one condition, and he turned it down, and went behind the back of the WMAA (while using WMAA contacts) to go through with his own promotion anyhow. Tim didn't "use" someone elses organization to get a promotion.

    3. Some take issue with the fact that Dan took 8th. He gave himself a jump. Many seniors will take this as Dan thinking he is better then the other seniors out there, who other then some of the PI students, have not taken anything higher then 7th.

    4. Some take issue with the fact that this looks like Dan promoting himself. In Datu Tim's case, a group of Juniors pushed to give Tim a promotion on Tim's behalf. In Dan's case, he pushed for a promotion on his own behalf.

    5. Some take issue with the fact that the first thing listed on "promotional Data" was a mistake. Dan states that he is the longest continuously training person in Modern Arnis in the States. I know of Jim Power and Rick Mangalong off the top of my head who have been continuosly training since the 70's. I am sure there are more "sleepers." Some think that this data may have effected the seniors decision to sign off on Dans promotion. Tim didn't have the issue of false info being present to the seniors who signed off on his promotion.

    6. Some are just angry because "MA-80" just means more segmentation in Modern Arnis to them. We are already so seperated and segmented, and this is just one more seperation to add to the mess.

    So Tim Kashino, I wouldn't compare the two. Dan's promotion and Datu Hartman's are 2 different animals. Dan's is actually more "controversial" when you look at the facts. Many will disagree with Dan, and many will back Dan up, but rest assured this is a cause for more "stir" then Hartmans promotion.

    Now I must be fair and present both sides. Dan Anderson is my friend, and I have had the pleasure of talking all this out with him today.I have written a few of the "disagreements" above. I will explain his side as I understand it in numerical order coinciding with the above. It is up to the individual to decide how they feel about the situation. I will only present facts.

    PAUL :cool:

    P.S. I am doing this to help everyone. Many people are angry and can't articulate why. Others are supportive, and others don't care. It is all "emotion based" right now. I figure that I will bring logic to the table to give people something to work off of. This way we can have a logical discusion ruled by order, as opposed to a flame war ruled by emotion.


    (* Edited for spelling of Jim Power - RP *)
     
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  15. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    [This coinsides with the numbering in my above post.

    1. Dan feels that it is his right to create his own style. The best way to figure out whether or not a style is valid is to first figure out "why" it was created it. What is the purpose for creating a style? What was Dan's reason? Dan's answer as I understand it: "The objective of MA-80 is to provide a vehicle for a student to learn Modern Arnis "in concept," not just in technique, in the same way that Remy Presas understood it, so one can hope to attain the level of skill that Remy Presas was able to obtain."

    In Dan's defense, Dan feels that he didn't just create a system to be the king of his own style, or to provide a vehicle to give himself rank. He feels that he really has something to offer the Modern Arnis Community. Something that is so unique that it warrents a seperate name.

    2. Dan explained to me that it was not communicated well enough to him the conditions of the WMAA promotion. He was told, "The board declined your promotion because of lack of knowledge of the curriculum." Dan says that it was never stated until after the fact when I had talked to him that all he had to do was one little thing, learn the curiculum, and he would have gotton the endorsement. This is poor communication on many levels. Perhaps the WMAA didn't make the conditions as clear as we should have. Dan perhaps should have asked what these conditions were himself, or discussed his plans with the organization he was a part of before reacting. From a WMAA standpoint, this may be a sign for us to better communicate. However, I was not on the business end of communicating the conditions of a promotion to Dan, so I do not know where the blame lies. Probably somewhere in between.

    The point is, Dan explained to me that he wasn't purposely trying to underhand the WMAA or Tim. He saw MA-80 and WMAA as 2 different animals; one being a seperate style (MA-80) and another being a Modern Arnis Org. He states that he didn't see the conflict between the two, or with what he was doing. He states that he wasn't intentionally trying to "stick it to" anyone.

    3. Dan essentially used a mathematical "formula" to determine what rank he should have. He explained that he used the standards of RP's "Pink Book," and historical presidence. Historically RP promoted Dan by "skipping" belt levels, and Dan never recieved a consecutive rank (like 1st to 2nd). Rather it was something like 1st, then 3rd, then 6th. We can draw our own conclusions as to why Prof. did it this way for Dan. This was Dan's logic in figuring 8th. In his defense, this logic was seperate from what other high ranked players are doing. He didn't say "I am better then so and so, so I chose 8th."

    4. Dan's response was basically that sure some will take issue, but hopefully they'll recover. MA-80 is Dan's system, so technically he didn't need to ask anyone for a recommendation. He did so to further validate it. It is up to the individual to decide how valid you believe Dans 8th is.

    5. Dan explains that this was not intentional. He has already previously posted an apology to Jim Power. He admits the mistake, and he is further going to check with those who signed off on the promotion to make sure there is no bad feelings.

    6. Although this may be true, to Dan, MA-80 is not an attempt to further segment modern arnis. Dan feels that MA-80 is something that all Modern Arnis players and practitioners can benifit from, regardless of affiliation.

    So, those are some rebuttles on Dan's behalf, based off my conversation with him. As I understood it, I could post these viewpoints if it came up. I posted them void of my own opinion, so you can decide how you feel about the circumstance in a logical manner, without things being "spin doctored" If I made a mistake, or if there is anything I forgot to add, I am sure that Dan A. can fill in the blanks. If others out there have opinions they would like to express, I am sure that people would be interested in hearing them.

    Remember this post it void of my own personal opinion. I will post one more time, just to express how I feel about the situation overall.

    :cool:

    (* Edited for Spelling of Jim Power - RP *)
     
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  16. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    In a perfect world, I would have liked to see Dan learn the WMAA ciriculum to get a promotion through the WMAA. This was what the Board intended, and I stand behind the decision. I am not happy with the progression of events here. I do feel that this further segments the art.

    On the positive side, I am not angry at Dan, nor do I think that he did anything with malicious intent. I do believe strongly that Dan thinks that he is doing the best thing for the art with his decisions.

    I personally think the best thing would have been the 1st route: a WMAA 7th degree. Due to lack of communication, misunderstanding, or whatever, this will now never become a reality. So, is Dan's promotion/decisions the second best thing? I do not know, personally. I do want to see the best thing to happend for the art, and I do want to see Dan happy and successful. So, for the sake of that, I do hope that this decisions will work out well for everyone.

    Only Time will tell....

    :cool:
     
  17. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Master of Arts

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    Hi Folks,

    Paul's last three posts are the culmination of about a two hour long conversation I had with him this morning. One thing about Big Daddy Paul is he will talk to me if he feels something is wrong. And talk we did. Paul did a pretty good representation of what we went over, the pros and cons, the things which he agreed with (not much) and disagreed with (lots). It was a very good talk. We were friends when we started and friends when we ended. I cleared up a lot of questions he had.

    A couple of points I do want to make are these:

    1 - I have no problem with Tim's or Dieter's or Kelly's or (the next one's) promotion and future promotions. NONE. Their promotions are a non-issue with me. They have all done a tremendous amount of work in their respective geographical and topic areas and recognition was given. Period.

    2 - The only trouble, if one could call it that, has been a lack of communication from the WMAA board to myself about certain specific matters. I think the WMAA is on the right track. I have made some very good friends in WMAA. Tim has personally opened doors to me so I could do seminars. And oyyy, the late nights and our friend, John (the Gentleman) Daniels.

    Harold Evans posted on another thread asking about MA 80 and there I posted a description for his and anyone elses benefit.

    After Paul thanked me for answering his questions and clearing up misunderstandings, I said if he wanted to, he could post up what we talked about in this thread. Paul, it must've taken some time to do it as we talked for qutie some time but thank you for doing so.

    Yours,
    Dan Anderson
     
  18. Jeff Leader

    Jeff Leader Guest

    I am the only person authorized to speak on behalf of the WMAA Board of Advisors, and am solely responsible for any failures of communication on the part of the Board. No one else speaks for the WMAA Board of Advisors--not even members of the Board.

    The Board will respond to any requests made to it but, as an advisory board, will not typically initiate such a discussion. (There are of course exceptions.) To date the only questions asked of the Board have been asked by Mr. Hartman. I have responded to Mr. Hartman regarding all those matters (after having conferred with the board members).

    Anyone with a question for the Board should contact me directly or in care of Mr. Hartman. I check this account only rarely so it would be preferable to contact me using my primary account.

    -Jeff Leader
     Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
     
  19. tmanifold

    tmanifold Guest

    Dan I think you went about it in the right way. Rather than having juniors promote you or some org unilaterally promoting you, you asked to be judged by a group of your instructors peers.

    I know some people will have a problem anytime there is a splinter group or division in an art I think you made a sincere effort to stay as credible as possible.

    Tony
     
  20. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    I just wanted to reinerate that in my series of posts, I was speaking for myself and relaying a conversation between Dan and I (with permission). My opinions are my own. It was not an "official" statement. I was not speaking for the WMAA, on behalf of the WMAA, or for the WMAA Board of directors. It is not my job to speak for the WMAA or the Board; that is left up to Tim Hartman or Jeff Leader. Although it may have appeared at times that I was speaking for the Board, this was not my intention.

    So please direct any questions for the Board or the WMAA towards Jeff Leader or Tim Hartman.

    Thank you,
    Paul Janulis
     

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