8th Degree Promotion. Is this a Joke?

[Bob Hubbard]

So...let me see if I've got the players ranks/etc straight:

Tim Hartman - 6th under Remy, 7th under WMAA both modern arnis
Dan Anderson - 6th under Remy Presas modern arnis, 8th MA80
Kelly Worden - 6th under Remy Presas, 7th from Presas Family ?? both modern arnis
Dieter Knüttel - 6th under Remy Presas, 7th under PI masters.

So, how is Dans 8th in MA80 different from his 6th in Modern Arnis, or his 7thin Karate?

Or is Dan saying that his 8th in MA80 is a promotion from his 6th in MA?

Is the problem that Dan asked?
I don't know if Dieter did, but I don't believe Tim or Kelly did.

Are all of the seniors supposed to freeze where they were?

I've seen argument that Tim was wrong cuz his juniors pushed for the bump. Seems thats common in other arts though. Kenpo comes to mind.

I've seen the argument that Dan was wrong because he asked.
I've heard of systems where you don't test until you ask.

Course, the argument here can also be made that out of these 4 seniors, only Dieter actually tested for 7th. Dan skipped straight to 8th without a test. Tim tested for his 6th, but did any of the other 6ths actually test?

You see, depending on how you look at it, we can argue all sides. I don't think we will actually find a resolution though.

Someone will always find issue.

Then again, maybe the real answer is a simple one.
Each did what was right for them and their respective paths.

:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
1 - So, how is Dans 8th in MA80 different from his 6th in Modern Arnis, or his 7thin Karate?

2 - Or is Dan saying that his 8th in MA80 is a promotion from his 6th in MA?

3 - Are all of the seniors supposed to freeze where they were?

4 - You see, depending on how you look at it, we can argue all sides. I don't think we will actually find a resolution though.

5 - Someone will always find issue. Then again, maybe the real answer is a simple one. Each did what was right for them and their respective paths.

:asian:

Kaith,

Being the voice of reason again? You rascal.

1 - My 6th is in Remy Presas Modern Arnis under Prof. Remy A. Presas. My 8th is in Modern Arnis 80 (MA 80), my style of Modern Arnis which I got permission from Remy Presas to establish. My 7th is in American Freestyle Karate and the promotion is from the American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts (ATAMA).

2 - No. My 6th in Modern Arnis is what and where it is. My lineage in Modern Arnis was directly from the founder, no middle men, to me. That rank was directly from the founder. The founder is gone. That "chain of command" is gone. That rank is frozen.

3 - That was the problem which several of us took different routes to handling.

4 - Yep, yep and if I didn't make myself clear, yep.

5 - Yes, we did. And even then as you said, someone will always find issue.

Interesting comments all around regarding this topic.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bloodwood]

There have been some very good points brought up on this thread except for obvious bias of Tim K towards Tim Hartman. Tim K is a DrB affiliate and after the nonsense at the symposium, any comments directed at Tim Hartman by the DrB camp should be considered antagonistic in nature. So far this has been a good exchange, so lets look at the FACTS carefully.

I have had many exchanges with Dan in the past and I will say that at least he answers all questions put to him regardless of whether we agree or disagree with him. Dan has put himself in an acquired situation AGAIN and if he's willing to take the heat he has that right. One thing he doesn't need is other people using there own ill feelings to stir up trouble on his behalf. He doesn't need that kind of help. I would think he's looking to make friends, not piss people off.

bloodwood

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood
There have been some very good points brought up on this thread except for obvious bias of Tim K towards Tim Hartman. Tim K is a DrB affiliate and after the nonsense at the symposium, any comments directed at Tim Hartman by the DrB camp should be considered antagonistic in nature. So far this has been a good exchange, so lets look at the FACTS carefully.

I have had many exchanges with Dan in the past and I will say that at least he answers all questions put to him regardless of whether we agree or disagree with him. Dan has put himself in an acquired situation AGAIN and if he's willing to take the heat he has that right. One thing he doesn't need is other people using there own ill feelings to stir up trouble on his behalf. He doesn't need that kind of help. I would think he's looking to make friends, not piss people off.

bloodwood

Yo! Blood!

When we disagree, we really disagree and when we agree, we really agree. On this, we agree. Yes, I will answer any question put to me. Also, yes, my intention is not to go ahead and piss people off just for $h!ts and giggles. I'm sure if the Norshadow thread hadn't been closed, some of the posts would have been moved there.

That being said, let me reiterate something I posted back on page two of this thread:

"I have no problem with Tim's or Dieter's or Kelly's or (the next one's) promotion and future promotions. NONE. Their promotions are a non-issue with me. They have all done a tremendous amount of work in their respective geographical and topic areas and recognition was given. Period."

To put out a little more info on this, prior to posting the information up on my website I personally emailed out an FYI to the following: Tim Hartman, Kelly Worden, Remy P. Presas, David Hoffman, Randi Shea, Dieter Knuettel, Bram Frank and Jerome Barber to let them know what was coming. I think Shishir as well but I can't remember right at the moment. You'll notice I never posted it up on MartialTalk or any other forum. I say this because if my intention was to go ahead and yank some chains I would've done it differently. As I can tell, there is no one way it could've been done which would have pleased everybody - even if RP came back and did it himself. I remember some of the grousing that went on over some promotions he did.

Actually, the fascinating thing I find about this thread is not the agreement/disagreement/flaming and other-targeting going on. It's that the person who fired the first shot, Kenpo Viking (Ingmar Johannson, I believe), has not posted since nor has he answered my personal email.

Blood, thanks for your comments and your acknowledgement that despite agreement or disagreement, we communicate.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Roland]

WHY?

Why don't you just do your own thing, make your own mistakes, fix yur own problems?
Why keep the comparison going?

Seems like most of this stuff is a waste anyway, and comparing it to another all together different art, just makes any issuse all the more confusing!



:soapbox:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hmm...Kenpo....

I've seen argument that Tim was wrong cuz his juniors pushed for the bump. Seems thats common in other arts though. Kenpo comes to mind.

Is the only mention I can find in skimming...made by me.

Now, maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see this as a slam at Kenpo. The opposite. With Parker dead, seems there wasn't anyone left to promote the current seniors. I remember hearing that Huk, Trejo and a few others were encouraged to take higher ranks to keep the art growing. My only intent was that the kenpo community had the same problem and found a successful solution.

How thats a slam, I don't know.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Roland
Re: For all the people who keep mentioning Kenpo and its rank problems.WHY?
:soapbox:

Hey Roland,

I think it's just because 1) it has paralelled what has happened in Kenpo and 2) it's an easy comparison as Kenpo is prevalent in your neck of the woods. If this forum was in more of a taekwondo area, the comparisons would be more ITF, ATA and so forth. I don't think it's is meant as a direct slam to Kenpo, though.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisador]

The WMAA looked to Kenpo in general and the advice of Huk Planas in particular when trying to decide how to proceed. In our minds we followed the "Kenpo model" of promotion. So, when we refer to Kenpo we mean it in a good way! They had a similar problem and we looked at how they solved it.

 

[loki09789]

Paul,

The FBI Profiler comment was a reaction to the Red Blade post about Tim K. For those who don't know me, I guess I would be considered part of the "Dr Barber Camp" since I am a brother Black belt to Tim K under Jerome.

The Norshadow business was beat to death and has been inactive for a while now. My reason for the comment is this:

The original 'NorShadow' stir was about who was who on the internet and what their agenda was during postings. That line is dead and the administrators dealt with it.

Tim K. posted as HIMSELF and made a comparison between two promotions within MA, for what purpose let HIM explain. We know what assuming makes us...an A... out of U and Me...

If Red Blade, or anyone, wants to judge Tim K's character - or anyone elses for that matter - based on this internet drama, it's about as realistic as claiming to know a celebrity based on entertainment news reports.

If martial arts training is suppose to produce or enhance a person's nobility and grace in character as well as physical practice, let all parties rise above this kind of needling.

When I see comments like Red Blade's it reminds me of how unproductive it is to bring up old issues during a new argument. It shuts down any openness on the receiver's end and reveals the sender's hostile agenda. It just keeps the fight alive for fighting's sake.

I know I am long winded, so any responses can be sent directly to my email, let's not keep this crap going.

Paul Martin

 

[Roland]

...I just think the comparison has gotten boring very quickly.

It is nice to learn by the past mistakes by others, but it just seems no one is actually learning anything, seems more like making justification of current events.

I say we try to fix any problems on an idividual scale instead of passing the buck.

I have seen or heard the reference so many times now, but have not seen anyone apply this knowledge to actually helping the Modern Arnis community.

:deadhorse

 

[Rocky]

Why are you people getting your panties in such a bunch over what Dan does in his art/style/organization. Does it effect you, do you train under him and know find that he doesn't know what he is doing. If you don't like his way of doing things then stay away.

Why are you people so fussy over rank when obviously Remy wasn't. Every organization out there is looking out for its own self interest first the art second!! You say I am wrong, well let me prove it, I have not once heard of an organazation or instructor ( Outside of me) say that in order to join their organization, you can not maintain the current rank you have you will have to take a reduction in rank. Now why do you think you don't here that......HHMMM could it be that most everyone would turn them down thus hurting their bottom line, maybe losing a seminar connection, now we don't want to offend anyone!!!!!!! Lets face it you get more bees with honey, tell people what they want to here!!!!! I on the other hand like the direct approach, if I think you suck, I tell you you suck!! If I think you are good I tell you, you are good. If I think you are good for what you have then I tell you that and if I think you are better then me then I will tell you that. The thing about non contact non competive arts is you have to spoon feed so many people with such fragile little egos. And because of no direct confrontation to put it out on the line people think they are better than they are!

look at Modern Arnis's past, you have a guy who openly admits that he had 13 years of training under Remy ( which in Modern Arnis years probably translates to 1 year of actual training) yet he comes out in a magazine and claims to be the new Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. You got another guy who likes to trash me, yet he more than likely has half the actual time of training under the old man, then my top student, yet openly admits to going from blackbelt to Datu in I beleive 6 years, but is anyone trashing him, Dean Stockwell went from white belt to second drgree blackbelt in 3 weeks!!!! Look!!!! Remy didn't care about rank why should anyone else!!!!!!!!!

Organizations are usually about business, and you have to make certain business decisions, Dan felt this was a good decision, for his group so he made it, over and done with move on!!!

modern Arnis has always had a stigma about it that everyone wanted to be the ONE!!! I have had long time modern arnis people right here in Detroit that won't train with me and its not because I was two up front about their abilty, its just to train with me forces them to admit certain things.

People always ask me why did Remy teach you so differently then everyone else, even GM Buot sees a huge difference now that he has other Modern Arnis guys coming to him. Well contrary to false acusations that Kelly boy likes to type, its because I was just the oposite of many of his students I did not want rank, I new rank was meaningless my father was a catch wrestler, with no rank and use to beat hell out of so called masters every weekend that were half his age and taking private lessons from him in our basement when I was a kid, so I leraned early on rank meant nothing. What I did was force Remy into teaching me the real stuff, I would go to one of Remy's seminars in the late 70s, and tell him that Sifu Clark ( my Kali instructor at the time) or that I attended on of GM Gaji's seminars and they told me if I did this tech. (that Remy showed me ) they would do this, and I/he would lose, so then Remy would teach me a counter, then I would do the same to them next time I saw them, I did this for years, and it work, I never kissed his butt I challenged him all the time, and deep in his heart he missed that, I know becuase in not so many ways he conveyed that to GM Buot.

So my advise is quite worring about who did what in their group or art and try learning, that which most in the Modern Arnis community have on begun to scratch the surface.


Rocky

P.S Remember if there are any typos or mis spelled words, " I got hit alot"

 

[Rocky]

I am an orange belt!!!! I wanna now who the hell promoted me??? What right do they have??? What are their credentials???


Rocky

P.S SHHH keep this between us, but I slipped someone a $50 and they made me an Orange belt!!! If you send me a $20 I 'll tell you who!!

 

[tmanifold]

I think I started the kenpo thing but I am not slamming Kenpo as an art. I easily could have said WC or Daito ryu AJJ. It is the fact that Remy didn't leave clear guidelines as to who was in charge and how people would progress in rank after he was gone. Kenpo was the same way and now you have 17 million 8th dan and above.

The other problem is it seems the Proffessor wasn't big on rank. Some of my buddies in the Bujinkan have the same problems after 5th Dan Hatsumi seems to hand out everyhting from 6th to 15 seemingly randomly. It cause's problems, the only difference is he is still alive and right now his word goes.

Tony

 

[Cruentus]

Paul Martin: Thanks for the reply...that clears things up.

Rocky: A couple of responses regarding your post, if you don't mind...

Does it effect you, do you train under him and know find that he doesn't know what he is doing. If you don't like his way of doing things then stay away.

I both agree and disagree. I feel that whenever ANYONE makes a decision regarding Modern Arnis, that it effects us all whether we like it or not. We are all one big disfunctional family, like it or not.

However, I agree that if you don't like Dan's way, or anyone's way for that matter, you don't have to go train with them.

Why are you people so fussy over rank when obviously Remy wasn't

A-Friggin'-men!! I agree that people are way too fussy about rank. I think that people are guilty of this accross the board, from the low ranks to the very high. I think that some people object to some of the high rank promotions because they feel that these "high ranks" are the ones being fussy about rank, feeling the need to "race" to the top. There may be some validity with these objections, depending on who we are refering too and the situation behind it.

I have not once heard of an organazation or instructor ( Outside of me) say that in order to join their organization, you can not maintain the current rank you have you will have to take a reduction in rank. Now why do you think you don't here that

I have an answer for you; they are honoring Professors rank. Frankly, I agree with this. Shouldn't we honor the rank someone recieved by Professor, the founder of the system, regardless of "why" they recieved their rank? I think we should...it shows loyalty to Remy Presas, and what's wrong with that?

In fact, I think that at times it is more self-serving to for an organization to consider a rank "invalid" after a period of time, because then the student will have to "retest" and pay "$$" to have your rank renewed.

Both IMAF's figured this one out. If you have not been active in their org. for a period of time, they consider your rank invalid. I am not so sure if demotions are involved with the IMAF's, though.

Please, don't regard my comments as a slam on you or the IMAF's; both you and those orgs. have their reasons for there rank policies which may not be completely self-serving to their group.

I am just making the point that I don't see how an Organization honoring Remy's rank is "self-serving," and if anything I think that the opposite arguement can be more easily made.

So my advise is quite worring about who did what in their group or art and try learning

I agree! Learning is Fundamentals...(then learning is "meat and potatoes," and then it is "Cuentada's") LOL....Balintawak humor :rofl:

Remember if there are any typos or mis spelled words, " I got hit alot"

LOL

Later,

PAUL

 

[Rocky]

Just sitting here at work, trying to figure out what pile of paper work to attack next, or if I should just say Puck it, and go swimming.

So anyways:

In fact, I think that at times it is more self-serving to for an organization to consider a rank "invalid" after a period of time, because then the student will have to "retest" and pay "$$" to have your rank renewed.

True dat true dat!!! This is why I don't charge for testing hell I rarely charge for teaching half the time.

Along time ago Remy told me to do two things, 1st learn to be a good businessman, 2nd learn Eskrima, I did both! I choose to do something other than just martial arts for business, this way I can teach my way, not, the way of oh I better make people happy so I can make my rent. For those that teach as a living more power to them I wish them the best of luck. But I just want good students, to me it is more important that my 14 balckbelts under me pretty much walk all over so called masters. Thats what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside I have been putting presure on a building owner down the street that is about to lose his building, to sell to me. When he does, and he will, I'll make him an offer he can't refuse I will start teaching again, the building will be bought and paid for my over head will be low, and I will be able to teach my way. I call my method Buotism, get it!!! I want small groups the kick butt not big groups that kiss butt. As a loyal Buotist I perfer the quality I get from one on one or very small groups.

As for my rank I'll just stay 5th degree in Modern Arnis forever. I have self promoted my self in the past though, just check out my new title below.

Rocky Pasiwk
"All knowing orical of wisdom" Supream leader of anyone willing to follow. Legend in my own mind, all hail me!!!

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by bloodwood
There have been some very good points brought up on this thread except for obvious bias of Tim K towards Tim Hartman. Tim K is a DrB affiliate and after the nonsense at the symposium, any comments directed at Tim Hartman by the DrB camp should be considered antagonistic in nature. So far this has been a good exchange, so lets look at the FACTS carefully.

Bloodwood,
I have no bias toward Tim Hartman. I'm drawing comparisons between the two promotions. That's all. As for my affiliations; I have none. I am my own man. I am not Jerome Barber's or anyone else's lackey. Whose lackey are you? You can keep your suppositions on my motives. If you have any question as to my character, I suggest that you meet me in person.
The bottom line in my last post is this: a promotion from a council of GMs carries more weight than a promotion form a board of juniors, whether the promotion was solicited or not. the WMAA is Tim's gig, and he can do what he wants to with it. MA-80 is Dan's gig and he too can do what he wishes with it. I would have recommended that Tim persue some kind of arrangement with the WSHC, MARPPIO, or IMAF, Phil. It may have been better received by the martial arts community.


Below is an e-mail from Dr. Barber since he has been banned I thought it appropriate to share here.

Tim Kashino



Dear Dan and Tim,

I have read with some mild interest and amusement the postings on MTC regarding the promotion to 8th dan. Please indicate to the fellows at the MTC, that I have no interest in the discussion and using my name is unnecessary. I support the efforts of Dan Anderson to promote his MA-80 and Tim Hartman's efforts with the WMAA. Any personal differences can be discussed outside of the MTC arena. Since I am not a member of either organization, what decisions they arrive at are their own.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Red Blade
Tim K.

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? After all you were involved with the Norshadow scam. It seems that you might have an axe to grind with him.

This comment comes from a "man" that posts without his real name... hmmm. Who's calling whom what?

Tim Kashino

 

[DoxN4cer]

Let me break it down for you, Paul.

Suppose you are a private in the Army. Each time you receive a promotion the authority that is promoting you is above your present level. A bunch of corporals don't hold a board to promote a sergeant to lieutenant.

CEOs don't become CEOs because their staff votes them into that position. They are voted into that position by people who are their peers and superiors (VPs and senior VPs).

All I'm saying is that there was a better way for the WMAA to go about promoting Tim. That's all.

I beleive that you are a little left of center in your view of the WSHC. The are there to recognize the accomplishments of pettitioners and to award rank, title etc., to people who meet their stingent criteria.

That's all you're getting out of me. Later.

Tim Kashino

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Suppose you are a private in the Army. Each time you receive a promotion the authority that is promoting you is above your present level. A bunch of corporals don't hold a board to promote a sergeant to lieutenant.

That wouldn't be a promotion per se--one doesn't get "promoted" from sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant. But in any event, what happens when you get to the top? Who appoints the CINC (president)?

People "below" him. That's the problem--Mr. Hartman was at the top of the WMAA. This is hardly without precedent in either the business world or the martial arts. While he could have gone to higher ranked individuals in the Phil.--a fine idea--they were practicing a different form of Modern Arnis. Mr. Hartman was promoted by an organization--similar to the Board of Directors idea--with the approval of two Grandmasters who outranked him.

I beleive that you are a little left of center in your view of the WSHC. The are there to recognize the accomplishments of pettitioners and to award rank, title etc., to people who meet their stingent criteria.

These criteria are evaluated entirely on paper, if I'm not mistaken?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer

. . .

Below is an e-mail from Dr. Barber since he has been banned I thought it appropriate to share here.

Tim Kashino



Dear Dan and Tim,

I have read with some mild interest and amusement the postings on MTC regarding the promotion to 8th dan. Please indicate to the fellows at the MTC, that I have no interest in the discussion and using my name is unnecessary. I support the efforts of Dan Anderson to promote his MA-80 and Tim Hartman's efforts with the WMAA. Any personal differences can be discussed outside of the MTC arena. Since I am not a member of either organization, what decisions they arrive at are their own.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Tim,

Thank You for your reply.

I do have to correct one little thing.

Jerome Barber Ed D. is not Banned, his account is suspended. This means that eh is more than welcme to come back when the suspention is over. A Ban would mean he is gone and is not welcome back.

It usually is not allowed for a suspened member or banned member to have someone post for them.

Yet, it has happened before and will happen again. And in this case when it is to clarify something, in particular the use of their name it is allowed with no recourse.


Rich Parsons
MT Moderator