2 more months can't hurt...right?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So we have Dan ranks and Gup ranks. The next Dan is how many gups you have. I think of it like application versions. You have Black Belt 1.0, 1.1, and 1.2, then upgrade to 2nd degree (2.0). Then 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and now I'm 3.0.

It does a few things. It breaks up the curriculum into smaller, more manageable chunks. At the black belt level our school includes additional forms from what Kukkiwon requires, as well as some hapkido techniques and weapon forms. It also helps break up the time between degrees. So students who have to wait for the year or so until they're eligible to advance still feel like they're progressing.

There is a fee, but the fee is similar to that for a colored belt tests. Beginners have a $40 fee, intermediate a $50 fee, and advanced have a $60 fee, black belt gup tests are $70. Our tuition + test fee is competitively priced with other schools in the area. (You have to consider the whole package if you're going to look at costs).

The killer on the wallet isn't the gup tests, it's the Dan tests. Those are around $700 for 1st degree and more as you go up. But included in that is an embroidered belt, a new uniform (which are usually $150 by themselves), semi-private lessons with the others testing for black belt, and the Kukkiwon registration, which I understand from other threads here can be quite expensive on its own.

---

Before we risk de-railing the thread (although it's run its course for it's main topic, so we might as well), as I said above, you have to factor in all the costs students pay. So if you have two schools that test every other month, and one school is $110/month, and the other is $90/month and $60 per belt test, which is better?

Well, the second school, if you test every testing period, you're paying an average of $120/month and advancing quick. But if you test every 4 months you're paying $105/month. Every 6 months you pay $100/month. So there is some variance in how much it will affect your monthly cost.

I haven't personally priced out the other schools in the area, but I've had several students tell me that when they looked at the total cost for tuition, tests, and any other fees, that our school was the best price.

Along the derail, my solution to that would be either guestimating how long it takes to get 1st dan, (lets say 2 years for math purposes), after the first year I know if I want to continue till then. So I start putting money away, an extra $60 a month, along with the $30 a month for testing until then (assuming test every 2 months to get to black belt). That's $90 that I'm putting away, bringing it to $180 a month, for the second year, and 120 a month the first year. Not sure how long you spend at each 1.x for black belt, so can't add that math in.

If the school is worth 120 then 180 a month to me, and I can afford that, I would pay it. But to me, I'm paying for instruction, not a rank. So in general I would rather pay X amount a month for instruction, which I care about, and 0 for a rank, which I don't care about. There's also a chance that I will stop at 1st kyu, and not advance beyond that, rather than pay $700 to say "I am a black belt". I can still refine my technique regardless of the color of the belt around my waist, and by the time I know all the material up to black, I should have enough material to keep me busy for years, if not decades.

 

[pdg]

And I thought it was pretty expensive to do the black belt test (including mandatory seminar) for me.

It's about £110 or thereabouts, including federation registration...

 

[skribs]

Along the derail, my solution to that would be either guestimating how long it takes to get 1st dan, (lets say 2 years for math purposes), after the first year I know if I want to continue till then. So I start putting money away, an extra $60 a month, along with the $30 a month for testing until then (assuming test every 2 months to get to black belt). That's $90 that I'm putting away, bringing it to $180 a month, for the second year, and 120 a month the first year. Not sure how long you spend at each 1.x for black belt, so can't add that math in.

If the school is worth 120 then 180 a month to me, and I can afford that, I would pay it. But to me, I'm paying for instruction, not a rank. So in general I would rather pay X amount a month for instruction, which I care about, and 0 for a rank, which I don't care about. There's also a chance that I will stop at 1st kyu, and not advance beyond that, rather than pay $700 to say "I am a black belt". I can still refine my technique regardless of the color of the belt around my waist, and by the time I know all the material up to black, I should have enough material to keep me busy for years, if not decades.

We generally get more detailed in our refinements as we go up. I usually see a huge skill jump in someone shortly after testing because of how much harder they're pushed in the next class.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We generally get more detailed in our refinements as we go up. I usually see a huge skill jump in someone shortly after testing because of how much harder they're pushed in the next class.

Why is there a change in how hard someone is pushed?
And im assuming if someone was a belt below someone else, but they showed the sane mastery, they would get the same amount of detail to refine.

 

[dvcochran]

Hopefully this won’t derail the thread too much ...

What’s the “intermediate ranks between dan ranks” all about? Are these regular interval tests between dan tests? What’s the point? Are there fees for these?

Just trying to wrap my head around it. Hopefully this won’t turn into a circus.

I agree. Isn't it behooving of the instructor(s), school, and system to keep up with who is where in their belt progression and when? I have been blasted for my recent opinions on kata, I guess because they are not traditional, but I hear no one making much of all these "mid grade" belt progressions.

 

[pdg]

I agree. Isn't it behooving of the instructor(s), school, and system to keep up with who is where in their belt progression and when? I have been blasted for my recent opinions on kata, I guess because they are not traditional, but I hear no one making much of all these "mid grade" belt progressions.

Oh rest assured, the mid grade belting has been discussed quite heavily...

I personally don't think mid grade belting is sensible, and charging for these tests is dubious.

At my school, they do a couple of 'extra' tests for juniors - two sub grades between 10th and 9th kup.

There is the suggests of offering mid grade testing between other grades for juniors too - but I think that's kind of acceptable because they're on about doubling the amount of tests for the younger lower grades, but halving the test fees (total cost remains the same).

Also personal opinion - if a Dan ranked person needs interim testing to feel they're progressing, I think they need to look at themselves and what they're actually doing...


(I don't recall your opinions on kata - care to remind me? Public or pm, either way is fine if you feel so inclined)

 

[JR 137]

Oh rest assured, the mid grade belting has been discussed quite heavily...

I personally don't think mid grade belting is sensible, and charging for these tests is dubious.

At my school, they do a couple of 'extra' tests for juniors - two sub grades between 10th and 9th kup.

There is the suggests of offering mid grade testing between other grades for juniors too - but I think that's kind of acceptable because they're on about doubling the amount of tests for the younger lower grades, but halving the test fees (total cost remains the same).

Also personal opinion - if a Dan ranked person needs interim testing to feel they're progressing, I think they need to look at themselves and what they're actually doing...


(I don't recall your opinions on kata - care to remind me? Public or pm, either way is fine if you feel so inclined)

Yeah. Kids’ colored belt testing is one thing. Dan testing, especially adult dan testing is quite another.

Other than making money, I see no realistic point in it. If an adult needs all these mini tests between dan tests to chart their own progress and/or stay motivated, then I’m truly at a loss for words. Other than reevaluate exactly why you’re training, of course.

 

[pdg]

Other than making money, I see no realistic point in it. If an adult needs all these mini tests between dan tests to chart their own progress and/or stay motivated, then I’m truly at a loss for words. Other than reevaluate exactly why you’re training, of course.

I've just tested to 2nd kup (penultimate colour belt), now have an absolute minimum of 6 months before testing to 1st kup.

Then a minimum of a year to 1st dan test.

Then 18 months to 2nd dan.

Those are minimum "in grade" times, there are other eligibility criteria.

There is no compulsion (or even availability) of interim testing...

 

[JR 137]

I've just tested to 2nd kup (penultimate colour belt), now have an absolute minimum of 6 months before testing to 1st kup.

Then a minimum of a year to 1st dan test.

Then 18 months to 2nd dan.

Those are minimum "in grade" times, there are other eligibility criteria.

There is no compulsion (or even availability) of interim testing...

Practically the same for me. I just tested and promoted to 1st kyu on Monday. Minimum 1 year wait for 1st dan. Minimum 2 years between 1st and 2nd dan. No interim testing. I don’t see any point in it either.

I was preparing for my 2nd dan test in my previous organization when I left to go to grad school. My teacher recommended me a few months before the test was given. I was about 6 weeks away from testing when I was offered a graduate assistant position and had to pack up and leave. There were no tests in that 2 year time period. None were necessary; my teacher knew me, knew I had reached the minimum time period, and felt I was ready to be promoted.

I hate to sound the wrong way here, but the intermediate testing between dan ranks honestly sounds childish at best, and realistically more like a cash grab to me. But I guess it’s one of those things that you have to be in it to understand it. I’m in no position to make the rules, nor do I want to. To each his own.

 

[pdg]

I hate to sound the wrong way here, but the intermediate testing between dan ranks sounds childish at best, and more like a cash grab. But I guess it’s one of those things that you have to be in it to understand it, I guess. I’m in no position to make the rules, nor do I want to.

I get what you mean - I don't see the point to it from a student perspective, but I'm not there either...

 

[pdg]

I just tested and promoted to 1st kyu on Monday

I wasn't aware of that, well done

 

[JR 137]

I get what you mean - I don't see the point to it from a student perspective, but I'm not there either...

I guess it’s like cutting weight in wrestling. So many people couldn’t figure out why I’d do it. My reply ended up becoming “you have to be in it to understand it.”

 

[pdg]

I guess it’s like cutting weight in wrestling. So many people couldn’t figure out why I’d do it. My reply ended up becoming “you have to be in it to understand it.”

Have to admit, I only partially understand it...

How wide were the weight categories?

 

[JR 137]

I wasn't aware of that, well done

Thanks. It was a pretty physically difficult test. I did pretty well by my own self-imposed standards. I could’ve done a little better, could’ve done a lot worse. The promotion is all fine and good, but it’s not that high on my priorities nor my sense of pride (for lack of a better phrase). I love the pressure, atmosphere, and challenge. The shiny new patch on my belt isn’t really that important. Been there, done that.

But sincerely, thanks.

 

[JR 137]

Have to admit, I only partially understand it...

How wide were the weight categories?

They’re closer now, back in the late 80s-early 90s when I was competing, it depended on the weight class. Lower weight classes were about 7lbs on average. Upper weight classes were further apart. I wrestled at 177 my senior year. It went 155, 167, 177, 215, 250. My junior year I wrestled at 167, and cut weight to wrestle at 155 for the NYS qualifier tournament series. Naturally weighing around 170, I cut about 13lbs in 2 days. That sucked. Why did I do that? I had a far better chance at going further at the 155 weight class than 167. There were a few guys who I had no chance of beating at 167, and the 155 class talent pool wasn’t as deep. It makes sense if you’re in it

250 lbs was an “optional” weight class (as was 91), meaning there were no forfeits for those. Forfeit means if a team doesn’t have anyone at that weight class, the wrestler who doesn’t have an opponent gets a win on their record, and the opposing team gets 6 points for their team score.

NYS has shifted the weight classes around and added some weight classes a number of times since, and it’s about 7 or 8 lbs between all weight classes now. That’s far better for the wrestlers and the sport overall.

 

[dvcochran]

Oh rest assured, the mid grade belting has been discussed quite heavily...

I personally don't think mid grade belting is sensible, and charging for these tests is dubious.

At my school, they do a couple of 'extra' tests for juniors - two sub grades between 10th and 9th kup.

There is the suggests of offering mid grade testing between other grades for juniors too - but I think that's kind of acceptable because they're on about doubling the amount of tests for the younger lower grades, but halving the test fees (total cost remains the same).

Also personal opinion - if a Dan ranked person needs interim testing to feel they're progressing, I think they need to look at themselves and what they're actually doing...


(I don't recall your opinions on kata - care to remind me? Public or pm, either way is fine if you feel so inclined)

It is in the Kata Critique post. It is a rather embarrassing pissing contest. In short, the argument centers around whether kata competitions have any value at all.

 

[_Simon_]

Practically the same for me. I just tested and promoted to 1st kyu on Monday. Minimum 1 year wait for 1st dan. Minimum 2 years between 1st and 2nd dan. No interim testing. I don’t see any point in it either.

I was preparing for my 2nd dan test in my previous organization when I left to go to grad school. My teacher recommended me a few months before the test was given. I was about 6 weeks away from testing when I was offered a graduate assistant position and had to pack up and leave. There were no tests in that 2 year time period. None were necessary; my teacher knew me, knew I had reached the minimum time period, and felt I was ready to be promoted.

I hate to sound the wrong way here, but the intermediate testing between dan ranks honestly sounds childish at best, and realistically more like a cash grab to me. But I guess it’s one of those things that you have to be in it to understand it. I’m in no position to make the rules, nor do I want to. To each his own.

Ah dude, thought you could slip by with a casual "let's move on" mention... weeeell gotcha!

Congratulations! That's awesome to hear, osu

 

[skribs]

Why is there a change in how hard someone is pushed?
And im assuming if someone was a belt below someone else, but they showed the sane mastery, they would get the same amount of detail to refine.

Because when you go to the red belt class, we do drills that are appropriate for red belts. Which will be mostly combinations involving roundhouse kicks and back kicks, and then individual practice on tornado kicks and spinning hook kicks (for example). In black belt class, we do drills that are appropriate for black belts, which are much more complex combinations which place those more advanced kicks in the mix, and get you to work on skills like direction changes.

So there is a significant jump in your ability to do spinning hook kicks when you've got to do 2-3 of them in a combo than when you do them slowly one at a time.

I agree. Isn't it behooving of the instructor(s), school, and system to keep up with who is where in their belt progression and when? I have been blasted for my recent opinions on kata, I guess because they are not traditional, but I hear no one making much of all these "mid grade" belt progressions.

We have lots of new stuff at each mid-grade. It's not just to do the same form for 4 tests.

Yeah. Kids’ colored belt testing is one thing. Dan testing, especially adult dan testing is quite another.

Other than making money, I see no realistic point in it. If an adult needs all these mini tests between dan tests to chart their own progress and/or stay motivated, then I’m truly at a loss for words. Other than reevaluate exactly why you’re training, of course.

Most of our black belts are in the 12-16 age range. As for myself, I don't "need" it. But I do find it useful to take the curriculum in chunks and so as soon as I'm ready for the next chunk, I test. I'll be taking a total of 5 tests over the next 3 years to get my 4th degree. It's not like I'm throwing down an extra $70 every month to keep my rank.

 

[pdg]

They’re closer now, back in the late 80s-early 90s when I was competing, it depended on the weight class. Lower weight classes were about 7lbs on average. Upper weight classes were further apart. I wrestled at 177 my senior year. It went 155, 167, 177, 215, 250. My junior year I wrestled at 167, and cut weight to wrestle at 155 for the NYS qualifier tournament series. Naturally weighing around 170, I cut about 13lbs in 2 days. That sucked. Why did I do that? I had a far better chance at going further at the 155 weight class than 167. There were a few guys who I had no chance of beating at 167, and the 155 class talent pool wasn’t as deep. It makes sense if you’re in it

250 lbs was an “optional” weight class (as was 91), meaning there were no forfeits for those. Forfeit means if a team doesn’t have anyone at that weight class, the wrestler who doesn’t have an opponent gets a win on their record, and the opposing team gets 6 points for their team score.

NYS has shifted the weight classes around and added some weight classes a number of times since, and it’s about 7 or 8 lbs between all weight classes now. That’s far better for the wrestlers and the sport overall.

So the weight quoted is the minimum for that category - 155 is the group that covers 155 through to 166, then 167 to 176, etc?

Can't say I morally agree with cutting or bulking to get into a segment with less competition, but I competitively understand it

I can't see much of a physical advantage from say a 10 or 12 lb difference, but hey, if there's only 3 people in the lower group and 50 in the higher one it tips the chances...

 

[JR 137]

So the weight quoted is the minimum for that category - 155 is the group that covers 155 through to 166, then 167 to 176, etc?

Can't say I morally agree with cutting or bulking to get into a segment with less competition, but I competitively understand it

I can't see much of a physical advantage from say a 10 or 12 lb difference, but hey, if there's only 3 people in the lower group and 50 in the higher one it tips the chances...

Weight quoted is the MAXIMUM. When I wrestled 177, if I weighed in at 177.1, I’d have to wrestle in the 215 weight class.

Regardless of what you weighed in at, you were allowed to go up one weight class if you chose to.

There are also team points, which gives the weight cutting another dimension. During a “dual meet,” ie when one school wrestlers another, the results of each match are scored for a team score. The team points have changed a bit here and there, but the principle is the same - 3 points for a win by a few points, 5 points for a win by more points, 6 points for a win by pin, 6 for a forfeit. So cutting weight can be advantageous from a team score standpoint. I might have to cut weight to wrestle a better opponent and let someone else take my weight class if we both have a good chance of beating our opponents.

Then there’s multiple people at the same weight class on the same team. If there are 2 or more of us at 177, we’d wrestle in practice the night before to determine who’s going to wrestle in the meet the next night. If you lose and no one’s in the weight class below you, you’ve got a match.

There’s a lot of scenarios. On paper it seems stupid to need to cut weight. A lot of people on the outside would say “if both wrestlers are cutting weight, why not just weigh what you weigh and wrestle?” The only answer that people understood and stopped more questions was “it’s a lot more complicated than that.”

NYS did a lot to get rid of the constant weight cutting. It’s still there and always will be, but it’s night and day different now. Adding weight class and weight certification have eliminated a lot of it. Weight certification means you get weighed in at the beginning of the season, and aren’t allowed to compete at a lower weight class than an official determines. Depending on factors such as body fat percentage (and not BMI charts), you’re typically only allowed to go down one weight class during the season. In rare instances they’ll give you two or won’t allow you to go down at all. For the post season, you have to have made weight for the weight class you want to compete in at least 50% of the time. So if I wanted to go at 167 for the post season, I’d have needed to weigh in at 167 for half of my matches. I didn’t have to compete at that weight half the time, just qualify to compete there half the time.

Yeah, it’s complicated