Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins

[glad2bhere]

By Gawd, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!!! Congratulations!! artyon:

"....However in the Daito Ryu book "Hidden roots of Aikido" you can see many of Hapkido tech & priciples. Also the book describes 3 levels of Aiki-Jutsu the lowest (if you will) being a jujutsu system, then Aiki-Jujutsu and finally Aiki-No-jujutsu.

Maybe the type of HKD we train in the level of jujutsu with some Aiki-jujutsu.

I've not really seen any high level display of Aiki No Jujutsu from any Hapkido Masters. This realm of tech is closer to Aikido then HKD IMO....."

Absolutely! Except that which we call "Hapkido" as taught by Ji and his tradition pretty much stops at the Yu-sool level. This would be the "ju-jutsu" or "yawara" level that most of us are familiar with. Now maybe Choi knew something of the next level from watching the higher performing people do their thing. He would have started to move beyond just using simple physics to make techniques work and started to use the opponents own neuro-muscular system against the opponents attack (or defense). This is where one would take Yu-sool and it would become "Hapki-yu-sool". People who have not studied the "Hapkiyusool" level and find themselves thwarted in trying to make a technique work will use a "pre-emptive strike" (J. "atemi") or avail themselves of pressure points to facilitate the technique because the technique is limited by the Physics involved.

The last level is Hapki-sool and is usually represented by the power of ones own personality or demeanor or deportment. It is as different from the other two levels as they are from each other. Whole separate topic. FWIW.

Let me say one other bit about this. With the use of the Internet, books, videos --- in short the modern age, we are able to talk about these things when 100 years ago they would have been the most secret and sophisticated parts of these arts and training. Now we are almost casual about it. Times HAVE changed!! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
d, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!! Congratulations!!

"......

 

[American HKD]

By Gawd, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!!! Congratulations!! artyon:

"....However in the Daito Ryu book "Hidden roots of Aikido" you can see many of Hapkido tech & priciples. Also the book describes 3 levels of Aiki-Jutsu the lowest (if you will) being a jujutsu system, then Aiki-Jujutsu and finally Aiki-No-jujutsu.

Maybe the type of HKD we train in the level of jujutsu with some Aiki-jujutsu.

I've not really seen any high level display of Aiki No Jujutsu from any Hapkido Masters. This realm of tech is closer to Aikido then HKD IMO....."

Absolutely! Except that which we call "Hapkido" as taught by Ji and his tradition pretty much stops at the Yu-sool level. This would be the "ju-jutsu" or "yawara" level that most of us are familiar with. Now maybe Choi knew something of the next level from watching the higher performing people do their thing. He would have started to move beyond just using simple physics to make techniques work and started to use the opponents own neuro-muscular system against the opponents attack (or defense). This is where one would take Yu-sool and it would become "Hapki-yu-sool". People who have not studied the "Hapkiyusool" level and find themselves thwarted in trying to make a technique work will use a "pre-emptive strike" (J. "atemi") or avail themselves of pressure points to facilitate the technique because the technique is limited by the Physics involved.

The last level is Hapki-sool and is usually represented by the power of ones own personality or demeanor or deportment. It is as different from the other two levels as they are from each other. Whole separate topic. FWIW.

Let me say one other bit about this. With the use of the Internet, books, videos --- in short the modern age, we are able to talk about these things when 100 years ago they would have been the most secret and sophisticated parts of these arts and training. Now we are almost casual about it. Times HAVE changed!! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
d, Stuart, I think you finally GOT IT!! Congratulations!!

"......

Thank You.

However I had it already just kept it to myself.

Ji might be in the Yu-Sool range so is GM Lim from the little I've seen so far and what others have told me.

Who is in the Aiki levels not many HKD people maybe only the AKD people and pure DRAJJ

 

[Mike-IHF]

Bruce,

"Welcome to fantasyland" I like that(LOL).

Stuart,

I would agree that Ji is at the Yu Sul level. Remember GM Chang recieved his 1st Dan from Ji. and later Bong soo-Han, and then Myong Jae-Nam. Which brings me to my next question. Do you guys think that Myong Jae-Nam started training in Aikido because he felt there was a lack of Aiki in what he learned from Ji, that waspassed down from Choi? and do you think that by using the Yu Sul that he knew, and mixed it with the Aiki, do you think it made it more or less complete?

Thoughts?

 

[iron_ox]

Thank You.

However I had it already just kept it to myself.

Ji might be in the Yu-Sool range so is GM Lim from the little I've seen so far and what others have told me.

Who is in the Aiki levels not many HKD people maybe only the AKD people and pure DRAJJ

Hello Stuart,

I KNOW you don't believe this - but writing it to placate this silly notion of Hapkido being broken up into little groups of distinct only confuses those who might believe that other than beginning students might not be able to excecute techniques with "Ki".

As far as Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, well, I'll just say this, if application of technique done with Ki means that a full speed, full power attack can be dispatched with no noticable effort, well, I've FELT this - and my bruises don't lie about KI. Simply, to break my attack with so little effort is well beyond basic ability.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....Ji might be in the Yu-Sool range so is GM Lim from the little I've seen so far and what others have told me.

Who is in the Aiki levels not many HKD people maybe only the AKD people and pure DRAJJ...."

Thats where the challenge comes in. Most people can sit very comfortably at the yu-sool level and spend their whole KMA career at that level. Not a thing wrong with it. There are a whole range of weapons and all sorts of material that can keep a person busy just at that level.

As far as operating at a "hapki Yu Sool" level, well its certainly a smaller group-- a subset if you will-- in the Hapkido arts. It has to do with the manner in which one executes the technique and is not all that easy to explain. Remember? We tried to do this once before; last year in October. I have only worked with GM Lim once so I can't say about his execution. Todd has worked with him a lot longer. I can say that Kim Yun Sang uses hapki yusool, in fact he almost never uses "yu sool" unless he's trying to make a point (ouch.) I will say that it is getting harder and harder to discern between the two levels as people attend training in one level and then attend a seminar at another level. The material gets blurred back and forth. In fact, there are people in Korea who come to Kim and learn ONLY "hapki yu sool" and take that back to their own schools. In Hyuk Suh is one of those that seems to get mixed into that blur but his tends to be more on the hapki-yu-sool side, I think. There are others who come to mind but I think its really an experiential thing. I didn't get it with Ji (though he could and did inflict pain). I did get it with Kim but is just very hard to characterize. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

".....and do you think that by using the Yu Sul that he knew, and mixed it with the Aiki, do you think it made it more or less complete?...."

Honestly, and I mean this with absolutely NO bad feelings in my heart towards you, but I think THIS is where we start to get into trouble. Let me use DRAJJ as an example so I can stay objective.

Takeda Sokaku taught something. After about 1915 he started calling it Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. His art had a lot of stuff in it including weapons. I think if you had asked him if he taught a complete art he would have said "yes".

Takeda Sokakus' Son, Tokimune took over the DRAJJ from his father and called his line Daito-ryu Aiki-Budo. He taught what his father taught including the weapons and passed it on to Kondo. If you asked him if he taught a complete art he would have said "yes".

There are at least four OTHER mainlines of DRAJJ and some teach sword and some don't and some teach stick and some don't. Ask any of them if they teach a complete art they would say "yes". But start comparing one against another and the answers would be closer to "well "I" do but THEY don't".

I could do the same with Aikido as it has a range from the Bu-Do approach of Mochizuki to the Cosmic Ki-Force of Tohei (and beyond). Ask any of these people if they teach a complete art and they would say "yes".

I could even do the same thing with Karate.

What we get into is one person saying "I" follow the "authentic Path" and everybody else is somehow less.

So, when you ask if Myong Jae Nam wanted to make Hapkido more complete by "adding" more material I can't really say because I don't share what I think Myong Jae Nams' value system was. For me Hapkido is 6 gueps and six dan ranks. Its six categories of weapons and six categoires of adjunctive material. I teach what I was taught and my teacher taught me what he was taught. I would look at what I do and say its "complete". Someone else would look at it and call it ridiculous. Life goes on. FWIW.

BTW: IMVVHO THIS WAS/IS the sort of stuff we need to be discussing in the Hapkido arts and on a regular basis.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Mike-IHF]

Bruce,


Isee what your saying. However I did not mean for the question to be did it make Hapkido more complete. I really believe alot of people's Hapkido is complete. What I was refering to was the discussion of Ai Ki, and Ki Ai. We were talking about Choi teaching more of the direct techniques, "yawara" from which we all know. And he taught this to Ji. But in essence he might not have taught, or Ji did not learn the Ai Ki aspects of the art. So my question was this. If Ji learned the Ki Ai, or more direct techniques, and he taught those to Myong. But Myong did not learn the Ai Ki aspects. So maybe Myong looked to Aikido for that Aiki Influence. Thoughts?

 

[glad2bhere]

OOoooopppssss--- My bad. :mp5: :idunno:

Sorry about that! Went completely off in the wrong direction!!

If you are going to take THAT position then I have to give a very firm and positive "I dunno".

For instance, when I went to Okamoto's seminar a couple of years back we spend the entire weekend doing "Ki" material. 8 hours on Saturday and 8 hours on Sunday. Then, as I was getting ready to leave the word went out among the "members" of the hosting school that Okamoto would be doing "combat" techniques (they used a different word) but only for the members and not for us guests. In modern parlance I considered this "bogus". It was bad enough that one should so clearly define between the two side, but to willfully delineate such that one only saw one-side of the coin seemed a bit shady, if you know what I mean. Personally I think anyone can take a yawara technique and interpret as "aiki", and I bet most "aiki" techniques have their "yawara" counterpart. Like the difference in using an M-16 for a fire-fight or target practice. Weapon is the same but the intention is different. No, I think in Myong Jae Nam's situation he was more interested in connecting with the Aikido people with an eye towards being the "Korean Ueyshiba". I don't think it had anything to do with the material. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart,

I KNOW you don't believe this - but writing it to placate this silly notion of Hapkido being broken up into little groups of distinct only confuses those who might believe that other than beginning students might not be able to excecute techniques with "Ki".

As far as Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, well, I'll just say this, if application of technique done with Ki means that a full speed, full power attack can be dispatched with no noticable effort, well, I've FELT this - and my bruises don't lie about KI. Simply, to break my attack with so little effort is well beyond basic ability.

Dear Kevin

I think we're talking about 2 seperate issues.

I'm very happy with the HKD skills I learned from Ji, Master Son, etc.

But I believe the HKD in fact may be simply a form of JJ passed on by Choi. ( a quite fomidable sytle may I add) I spent over 25 years doing it. Ji said Choi called it Yawara so did Lim in TKD times. I think they all used the name Hap Ki but that would mean Ai Ki and the Hapkido Ilearned is not of the Ai-Ki flavor as compared to Aikido.

The question remains what is the Aiki-Jujutsu relation to HKD. In TKD times Lim stated the party line that Choi learned from Takeda.

Lets say I buy into that and "I do", my only unanswered question would be, What form of DRAJJ did Choi learn?????????????

1. The plain JJ style??????
2. The Aiki style?????
3. Aiki No style????

Mainly #1 with some #2 or all of the above??????????

I will speculate from the techniques we have in HKD that the answer is door #1 maybe some #2, I doubt #3 at all.

No one will ever know for sure!

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

"Welcome to fantasyland" I like that(LOL).

Stuart,

I would agree that Ji is at the Yu Sul level. Remember GM Chang recieved his 1st Dan from Ji. and later Bong soo-Han, and then Myong Jae-Nam. Which brings me to my next question. Do you guys think that Myong Jae-Nam started training in Aikido because he felt there was a lack of Aiki in what he learned from Ji, that waspassed down from Choi? and do you think that by using the Yu Sul that he knew, and mixed it with the Aiki, do you think it made it more or less complete?

Thoughts?

Myung Ja Nam openly mixed AKD with HKD. It's well known Myung favored soft flowing Aiki movements. I will say that was his personal perferance.

He definately moved towards AKD and away from Choi/Ji's style of techniques.

So in fact did Master Chang or Jang, I believe he's your head Master?

 

[Master Todd Miller]

But I believe the HKD in fact may be simply a form of JJ passed on by Choi. ( a quite fomidable sytle may I add) I spent over 25 years doing it. Ji said Choi called it Yawara so did Lim in TKD times.

GM Lim never said anything about DJN Choi calling Hapkido Yawara. He called it Hapki Yu Sool then Hapkido.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Doju Nim Choi was also known for his high skill level in Kihap Sool. I was told by a reliable source that DJN Choi could knock a man to the ground with a Kihap.

Hapki & Kihap are two sides of the same coin. Interesting stuff.

Take care

 

[American HKD]

But I believe the HKD in fact may be simply a form of JJ passed on by Choi. ( a quite fomidable sytle may I add) I spent over 25 years doing it. Ji said Choi called it Yawara so did Lim in TKD times.

GM Lim never said anything about DJN Choi calling Hapkido Yawara. He called it Hapki Yu Sool then Hapkido.

I must be seeing thing, I thought I read Yawara??

Ji said Choi called it "Yawara" of course that was maybe 15-18 years before GM Lim trained with Choi.

 

[glad2bhere]

I think we might be treading perilously close to "hero-worship" again.

DRAJJ people often talk about how their patriarch (whichever tradition you might be talking about) could blah blah blah blah. And some other person might say "well GM GHJK could do-dah do-dah-do-dah". I remember some pretty weird stuff being written about both Takeda and Ueyshiba quite a while ago including walking through walls and reading peoples' minds. Maybe they could and maybe they couldn't. I wasn't there. What I DO know is the superlative door swings both ways.

Lets say a person is able to take a full-power, all-out attack and effortlessly turn that attack and dominate the situation. Lets say he spends 40+ years learning the skills to do that. Thats four decades by my count. What exactly is the conclusion to be drawn here? That if we spend 40 years we might be able to approximate those skills? That if I start at the age of 17, in forty years I will have accomplished skills par excellance just in time to watch those skills diminish with age? And what if an all-out attack never comes? What do I do--- go out and look for an opportunity to see if this stuff really works?

The fact is that the Hapkido arts are just that--- arts. You spend your whole life looking to master a skill set you are going to bust your hump not to use. You will train in weapons that have been useless on a battlefield for almost 400 years. Dressing Yong Sul Choi or any of his students up in layers of adjectives is not going to change the fact that they are just human beings who worked hard at something then passed the torch to the next generation. Why try and make more of it than it is? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hollywood1340]

Well said :asian:

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I think we might be treading perilously close to "hero-worship" again.

This type of ability is not well understood by most in the western Martial Art culture. It is however well known in Aisia that this type of skill CAN be developed with the right training. It is not some mystical ability but proper hard focused training.

Just because you do not understand something does not mean that it does not exist!!!! :asian:

Take care

 

[glad2bhere]

Contrary to how you may interpret the point, I understand the concept very well, I just think it is disingenuous to represent it in the fashion that it has been.

Certainly hardwork properly applied will produce good results. That is not my point.

My point was that it is no good service to represent a personality to the public in an inflated manner. For instance, if someone is said to have "trained" with a personality for 20 years it is reasonable for the audiance to conclude daily periods of significant effort. 365 periods of two-hour training for 20 years would certainly be laudable. Fact is that most people actually have what might be better termed a "20 year relationship" with someone. In such a case the training might be infrequent, or regular at a greater interval such as once a week or even once a month, perhaps occasional intensives followed by extended periods of relative little interaction. Saying that a person "trained with GM So&So" is a cosmetic statement that can cover a range of imperfections. This would be not unlike a person such as yourself stating that you are going to Korea "to train" and spending a significant portion of your time in inactivity while others are on the mat. Something like that.

In like manner, it might also be inaccurate to say that a person who studied disparate arts, over a 20 year period, and then fuses those arts together in a single entity cannot be said to have studied that fused result for "20 years". The truth is that he studied one aspect and then another aspect for realtively shorter periods. The claim that GM Lim, for instance studied "Guhapdo" for "40 years" is misleading. No mention is made of him studying Eishin Ryu in Japan and bringing that material back to Korea and creating his own aspect of sword which is then represented as "Korean". These kinds of carefully groomed statements tend to represent a personality in an inauthentic manner and do a disservice to people who might be seeking a role model after whom to pattern their own efforts.

Some time ago I mentioned that I thought that your marketing efforts were inappropriate and you suggested that the fault lay with me. I suggest my examples are sound representations of liberties that you take in representing your art and GM Lim. In similar fashion Kevins' signature block that characterizes "authentic Hapkido" and your own comment on AJ Net regarding "original history" are unnecessary adjectives which seem to suggest that what other people proffer is somehow "non-authentic" or "un-original". And since neither statement identifies who you are referencing the natural Human need for closure results in concluding a dichotomy of your "authenticity" and "originality" against the failings of the rest of the World. I believe that this is made worse by the fact that you know you are representing things in this fashion, understand your result and choose to continue the charade. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,

So in fact did Master Chang or Jang, I believe he's your head Master?

Actually, I would not say that at all. We have very little Aikido influence at all. Infact I would say if anything Aikijutsu. If I remember correctly GM Chang said the reason he broke away from Myung Jae-Nam, is that his techniques started to become to much like Aikido. GM Chang teaches pure Hapkido that he learned from Ji, Han, and Myung.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

I am still having trouble finding information about GM Chang. Am I using the right spelling? Is it Chang or Jang? I have looked for him under Myong, Myung and Ji and not had any success. Is this the same person connected with Fabians' up-coming seminar? Is this the person who is connected with WOMAF and Garrison up in the Northwest? Thoughts? Comments? Help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Stuart,

So in fact did Master Chang or Jang, I believe he's your head Master?

Actually, I would not say that at all. We have very little Aikido influence at all. Infact I would say if anything Aikijutsu. If I remember correctly GM Chang said the reason he broke away from Myung Jae-Nam, is that his techniques started to become to much like Aikido. GM Chang teaches pure Hapkido that he learned from Ji, Han, and Myung.

Dear Mike,

Please explain Aikijutsu influence on your style of HKD.

That seems to be an oxymoron being that they're supposed to be the same Art ? ? ?

Myung Jae Nam clearly and openly associated with Aikido, GM Jang being student of Myung much longer than Ji would have much more AKD influence than anyone from Ji's lineage only.

That's why I would assume your style is what it is.