Xingyiquan – Post Standing - more from a Xingyi addict

Xue Sheng

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It is no secret that Xingyiquan is big on Santi Shi (aka one type of post standing). Also that may a Xingyi Sifu wants you to stand in Santi for at least 30 minutes per side to get a good base for Xingyiquan. However many Sifu types back in the old days wanted their students to stand in Santi for up to 2 hours a day. However many today feel that 30 minutes per side per day is good enough just as long as you stand “properly”. If you are not standing properly you are not getting the needed base for Xingyiquan.

But I have also read that a beginner if he/she stands long enough will adjust to the proper stance on his/her own. However there are guidelines to follow and it takes time (more on that later)

However there is another rule of Xingyiquan form the old days that I recently came across in dealing with Post standing. You need to spend 3 years training (Xingyiquan is big on the number 3) post to get that good base so if you stand 1 hour per day for 3 years you are at 1095 hours. But you can’t just train post; you also need to train the forms. Because if all you do is train post you do not learn how to move your root and you could end up with a real strong root (double weighted) but you can’t move and maintain it.

There are however different types of post training in Xingyiquan that are part of this, it is not just Santi Shi. What seems to generally agreed upon as post training for Xingyiquan includes Wuji, zhan zhuang (aka húnyuán zhuāng – Primordial Post Standing – Yiquan stands a bit differently for this one or the translation that I read is wrong) sāntǐshǐ zhuāng (three bodies [trinity] standing) jiàng lóng zhuāng (Surround the dragon post standing) and fú hŭ zhuāng (subdue the tiger post standing)

Other post standing I have seen associated with Xingyiquan are lóng xíng gōng (Dragon standing – not the same as surround the dragon), hŭ xíng gōng (Tiger standing – not the same as subdue the tiger) yuán xíng gōng (ape standing), xiōng xíng gōng (bear standing).

There is also a more active type of standing similar to sāntǐshǐ zhuāng that is called zá zhuāng (pounding post standing)

Ape standing I do believe is also found in, and an important part of Dai Xinyiquan, where many believe Xingyiquan comes from and I also believe you still find it in Shanxi style Xingyiquan. Also if memory serves me the Dai Xinyi people can’t understand how you can make any of this work without Ape standing.


Wuji Zhuang (there are variations)

Zhan Zhuang (Húnyuán Zhuāng)

Yiquan Húnyuán Zhuāng

Considered advanced standing posture, or so I have been told

Jiàng Lóng Zhuāng

Fú Hŭ Zhuāng

And now back to Santi Shi

The following on the stages of Santi from beginner to higher is from “Di Guoyong On Xingyiquan Volume I Five Element Foundation by Di Guoyong” as it applies to training santi shi. (This is a very good book that has a lot of detail as it applies to proper stances). Now here is a shock, there are 3 levels of training santi beginner, intermediate and higher. I will not go into great detail, this is more of a short summary, but I will give some idea as to what he has said.

Note: all breathing is done through the nose not the mouth in all stages

Beginner
1) Work on getting the correct posture
2) Relaxing. Once you get the correct posture you will find that your body will relax. This is not saying slack but relaxed.
3) Calm down. In other words focus on standing not what you’re going to have for lunch. Eventually your mind will calm down so you can focus on just standing

Intermediate
1) Refine the posture, look for the power flow
2) Look inside and outside. Inside (internal) to make the body healthy. Outside for fighting ability. Internal is looking to develop your mind to follow the conception vessel and once you can focus your mind on that the qi will naturally follow. After that the heavenly circuit (the entire body)
3) breathing, prior to this most of your focus was on correct posture and breathing was natural. Now you can begin to work on reverse abdominal breathing (Taoist breathing)

Higher level
1) unite internal and external
2) breathing; inhale is long, deep and permeates the whole body. Exhale is fine slight and almost non-existent, and with all breathing there is no sound.
3) more relaxed

As I read, get and figure out more I shall post more.
 

JDenver

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Super duper.

I do zhan zhuang from a xingyi guy (but also does bagua).

I'm interested in santi. You say that at intermediate you actually focus on the conception vessel? Curious. In my z.z we do no microcosmic or macrocosmic orbit stuff at all. At best we focus on the lower dan tien, but even then it's not completely necessary.

Excited to read more--
 
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Xue Sheng

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Super duper.

I do zhan zhuang from a xingyi guy (but also does bagua).

I'm interested in santi. You say that at intermediate you actually focus on the conception vessel? Curious. In my z.z we do no microcosmic or macrocosmic orbit stuff at all. At best we focus on the lower dan tien, but even then it's not completely necessary.

Excited to read more--

This is what Di Guoyong says, I was taught a bit differently. I was taught to first focus on nothing as far as things qi go (My sifu said focus on your hand - the index finger actually) and as time goes the energy will flow by itself naturally and go where it needs to go. And as you relax you will notice the connections and power flow.

But I am not saying that Di Guoyong is wrong he has been at this much longer than I, he is just going at it a different way as it appears form what I am reading many have slightly different ideas about things Xingyiquan. And that mostly comes down to lineage and style differences

Di Guoyong is also trying something that most that have written about Xingyi have not done. Write about it clearly in terms the average westerner might understand and he is breaking it down in great detail by comparison to others I have read. But then the others were writing for a Chinese audience not western. So it is possible that he was taught to concentrate on the conception vessel or it could be he is trying to put it into terms we may understand. Since his native language is not English it is hard to say

But still it is a great book IMO.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Read these (from the Tao Te Ching)

Thirty-Seven

Tao abides in non-action,
Yet nothing is left undone.
If kings and lords observed this,
The ten thousand things would develop naturally.
If they still desired to act,
They would return to the simplicity of formless substance.
Without form there is no desire.
Without desire there is tranquility.
And in this way all things would be at peace.


Forty-Eight

In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

Less and less is done
Until non-action is achieved.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.

The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
It cannot be ruled by interfering.

Now think Santi Shi and read them again...

And yes I obsess too much about Xingyiquan these days and I am likely reading to much about Taoism too

They are from the Tao Te Ching
 
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Xue Sheng

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From the Nei-yeh

11
When your body is not aligned,
The inner power will not come.
When you are not tranquil within,
Your mind will not be ordered.
Align your body, assist the inner power,
Then it will gradually come on its own.

When I first read this I immediately went to thoughts of Santi Shi but then I realized this applies to all postures in just about every martial art. But it is very much inline with the progression of training in CMA as it applies to the internal aspects of CMA. You need to get the posture right first and then the internal will follow
 

clfsean

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From the Nei-yeh



When I first read this I immediately went to thoughts of Santi Shi but then I realized this applies to all postures in just about every martial art. But it is very much inline with the progression of training in CMA as it applies to the internal aspects of CMA. You need to get the posture right first and then the internal will follow

Luk Hop... that's the rule I follow ... Connect the six external & the six internals have channels to release...
 
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Xue Sheng

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Luk Hop...

:eye-popping: Oh no, more Cantonese devil talk, now Mandarin, that's is the language of the chosen :D

Luk Hop... that's the rule I follow ... Connect the six external & the six internals have channels to release...

I believe there are many that miss this and go straight to working on the internal and then wonder why it just doesn't seem to work
 

mograph

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My interpretation is that the postural alignment must be evaluated by the student internally. Does he feel aligned? Does he feel balanced? Does he feel as if the sinews, muscles and fascia are connected? If not, he must make tiny adjustments to the posture based on those internal sensations.

Some interpret the Nei-yeh to mean "match a posture that looks right, and never deviate from it. Then the power will flow in time." Yes, an instructor can get you started in a posture, but you need to refine it in tiny increments yourself. The instructor can only take you so far. This is my experience.

Of course, we may all be talking about the same thing ... :)
 
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Xue Sheng

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My interpretation is that the postural alignment must be evaluated by the student internally. Does he feel aligned? Does he feel balanced? Does he feel as if the sinews, muscles and fascia are connected? If not, he must make tiny adjustments to the posture based on those internal sensations.

Some interpret the Nei-yeh to mean "match a posture that looks right, and never deviate from it. Then the power will flow in time." Yes, an instructor can get you started in a posture, but you need to refine it in tiny increments yourself. The instructor can only take you so far. This is my experience.

Of course, we may all be talking about the same thing ... :)

IMO we are talking about the same thing, but maybe I'm wrong.

There are internal adjustments but in order to get to that point, to feel the sinews, muscles and fascia you need to get the posture as close to correct as possible (or maybe it is just getting use to the posture) and you need to reach a certain level of alignment and balance and once you get there you can then work on adjusting the posture internally because you begin to feel the connections in the sinews, muscles and fascia and then you start to refine the posture and the internal.

But I have found that many want the internal first and don't want to work on the posture

But then there is a school of thought in Xingyi that says stand the qi will follow. Basically don't interfere just let it flow
 

clfsean

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:eye-popping: Oh no, more Cantonese devil talk, now Mandarin, that's is the language of the chosen :D

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ NNNEEEEEVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody knows that Cantonese is the language for the best MA from China, best Chinese food & is the true language of the patriots of China!!

I believe there are many that miss this and go straight to working on the internal and then wonder why it just doesn't seem to work

Yeah... too many people go looking for "the Force" & forget that this is reality.
 
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Xue Sheng

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BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ NNNEEEEEVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody knows that Cantonese is the language for the best MA from China, best Chinese food & is the true language of the patriots of China!!

Yup, per usual, Southerners talk to much :D (actually I was first told that by a lady from Guangzhou :) )

Yeah... too many people go looking for "the Force" & forget that this is reality.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. And with the force fails them it is not they who are at fault it is the art :rolleyes:
 

clfsean

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That is pretty much it in a nutshell. And with the force fails them it is not they who are at fault it is the art :rolleyes:

Yep... it's always the art's fault for not having "this" in there or the teacher for not showing them "this" so they can "do it right".

But I also blame the teacher's as far back as need be in perpetuating this myths as well. Nobody that uses/hints at smoke & mirrors is guilt free.

If you can't do a thing in broad daylight 100 times with 100 different people, don't do it.
 
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Xue Sheng

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But I also blame the teacher's as far back as need be in perpetuating this myths as well. Nobody that uses/hints at smoke & mirrors is guilt free.

If you can't do a thing in broad daylight 100 times with 100 different people, don't do it.

You do have to admit though, in some cases, they did a bang up job of teaching their students how to fall down when necessary :D
 

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