Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Appledog

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Chen Tai Chi is intimately related to Xinyi/Xingyi. In the following two videos (and after moves such as fan through the back) notice the requirement to land in San Ti Shou (from Xinyi/Xingyi):

(ex. the jump at 0:62)

(ex. the jump at 0:46)

For a really beautiful example of it being done see

As for bagua, not so much, although I have a feeling that there is some interesting footwork in xinjia er lu which may be influenced by bagua, I don't really know. I know the fundamental basics are the same but bagua twists a bit more and walks in circles. From what I gather bagua is really it's own beast, unlike the rather uncofortably close distance between xinyi and tai chi.
 

Xue Sheng

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Chen Tai Chi is intimately related to Xinyi/Xingyi. In the following two videos (and after moves such as fan through the back) notice the requirement to land in San Ti Shou (from Xinyi/Xingyi):

(ex. the jump at 0:62)

(ex. the jump at 0:46)

For a really beautiful example of it being done see

As for bagua, not so much, although I have a feeling that there is some interesting footwork in xinjia er lu which may be influenced by bagua, I don't really know. I know the fundamental basics are the same but bagua twists a bit more and walks in circles. From what I gather bagua is really it's own beast, unlike the rather uncofortably close distance between xinyi and tai chi.

Not to be argumentative, but there is no real relationship between Chen Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. There is not even a documented historical relationship not until you get to Sun Style Taijiquan. The back stance you are showing appears transitional and almost, if not totally weighted on the back leg. Xingyiquan is 40/60 or 30/70 and the main fighting stance. Chen is much more closely related to a Long Fist. With that said, always liked Chen, trained it a bit a while back too
 

Appledog

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Not to be argumentative, but there is no real relationship between Chen Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. There is not even a documented historical relationship not until you get to Sun Style Taijiquan. The back stance you are showing appears transitional and almost, if not totally weighted on the back leg. Xingyiquan is 40/60 or 30/70 and the main fighting stance. Chen is much more closely related to a Long Fist. With that said, always liked Chen, trained it a bit a while back too

I do believe they are different arts, with different emphasis, just that they share much of the same DNA.

My linage contains Chen style and Xinyi liuhe, and I can tell you that they are very similar from a practical standpoint. It is possible to take many moves from Chen style and turn them into xinyi-style exercises. Such as an, an, an, snake spits out tongue, and so forth. My teacher showed me a way to practice fan through the back using san ti shou as a linking posture. So, the way we start teaching Chen style is to show the most difficult postures in line form, as short sets (ex. as I linked above) and then show the whole form so it is easier to learn.

Anyways I'll take what you wrote as a request for evidence -- and the evidence is massive. I would say there is in fact a documented relationship, mainly surrounding the three-three boxing manual and where they got the spear routines. Some notes, mainly from S.Yan, Dai ZQ, etc. will help here, and I will close with a more scholarly article. But I do feel overall, that the roads are pointing in this direction.

(BTW, unfortunately I have lost track of whose notes these are; they have been intermingled, but mainly Dai ZQ's and S.Yan I think):

Because of Damo, the monks had then begun to practice what amounted to daoyin and qigong alongside their martial arts. They soon developed an art called "Xin Yi Ba", which by historical record consisted of the practical movements of general farming and cleaning (such as carrying water, sweeping a broom or shoveling) into a sort of fighting art that they used to defend themselves against wild animals. Shaolin also began to become well-known for their staff fighting skills.

[...]

Xingyi master Dai Longbang wrote the 'Preface to Six Harmonies Boxing' in the 15th reign year of the Qianlong Emperor [1750]. Inside it says, '... when [Yue Fei] was a child, he received special instructions from Zhou Tong. (note: who was a shaolin monk) [...]

[...]

At this time, Ji Longfeng had not yet gained any true inspiration, however, the path to Shaolin runs past the QianZhai Temple in BoAi county. Priest Dong of QianZhai, was famous for his Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) and Tongbei. Dong's liu he chang (six harmony spear) was especially intricate. [...]

This is the same way the merchant Wang Zong Yue passed his Soft Hands and Six Harmony Spear skills to Dong when he passed the temple when he passed by. [...] (see below)

After learning the shenfa of Six Harmony Spear, Ji practiced day and night on the banks of the Yellow River, eventually gaining the level of Six Harmony Divine Spear. He then set off again for Shaolin temple. [...]

Arriving at Shaolin Si, Ji's 6 harmony spear skill was incomparable, the abbot begged Ji to stay at the temple to teach. (this was recorded in the Ji Family Chronicles. In the Shaolin temple's archives, there is a spear manual titled, "Teacher Ji's Spear Manual) Shi Yong Wen, originally from Shaolin, still has it in his care. (The author has visited Shi Yong Wen in Kaifeng, Henan to authenticate the manual.)

The manual in question is exactly the same as the Xin Yi Liu He Chang manual in the author's possession. From this, we can see that Shaolin treated Ji respectfully and called him Ji Lao Shi (teacher, Ji). Therefore this story matches up with the story in the Ji Family Chronicles.

[...]

During the Ming Dynasty, one famous for Six Harmony Spear Li Ke Fu, who used Mei Hua Liu He Chang (Pear Blossom Six Harmony Spear).

The treatise written by Chen Zong You in 1621, The Selection of Long Spear Ways, details the style he learned from Li. General Qi Ji Guang, who lived in the same era as Li, had gone to Tang Jing Zhou, 21 years his senior, in search of instruction ...

In his "New Book of Effective Techniques" are records of Yang Family Spear's 8 Mother Spears, Six Harmony Spear and 24 Spears. The Six Harmony Spear in Tang's book, "Martial Edited Selections", has little differences with the Six Harmony Spear recorded in Qi's manual. [...]

...Xin Yi Spear and taiji are extremely similar ... also has 13 Spears, 21 Spears and 24 Spears etc, and also includes 3 point theory, similar to Xin Yi Liu He. We can see that there is some connection there. It is easy to see why, when in 1887, Mai Zhuangtu's disciple Ding Zhao Xiang visited Chang Nai Zhou's hometown to converse with his 5th generation descendant Chang De Pu, he made a copy of Chang Nai Zhou's treatise, "Tendon Change Classic, Chi Channeling Secret", and included it in his boxing manual.

[...]
Chang Nai Zhou wrote the "Central Chi Theory", and the twenty or so chapters on the "Theory on Yin Yang Entering and supporting" were called the "Tendon Change Classic, Chi Channeling Secret." ...from the same source as as the 3 Point Theory in the Xin Yi Liu He boxing manual. ...Chang was a student of Wang Bao Spear, which came from Taoist Dong of Qian Zhai Temple.

Taoist Dong had incredible skill with Liu He Spear and Staff, ... Chang Nai Zhou (also) had a friendship with Chen Village's 12th generation descendant Chen Ju Xia...

[...]

Chen Family 16 generation descendant Chen Xin once used Taiji theory to edit the Xin Yi Boxing Manual. The part he edited being "3 verses on 10" and renamed the manual the "3, 3 Boxing Manual" ...

14th generation descendant Chen Chang Xing too modified a copy of Xin Yi's "9 Theories" that was passed into Wen county into "Chen Taiji Theories".
=====

Actually I have a lot of notes similar to these pointing out that person X Y or Z either visited chen village or qianzhai, and what they taught or learned there. The general jist of it is that xinyi was one of the arts that intermingled with chen style from multiple sources including visitors to the village, arts taught to the village by qianzhai temple, and shaolin arts itself, and not only that, that they fed back into each other as well. Actually, did you know that Wang Zongyue and Chen Bu both came from the same area? "When you ask me from where I came, the answer is Shanxi Hongdong Big Scholar Tree." Wang Zongyue, by the way, worked as a schoolteacher near Chen village. At least the person who used this name did. Some have pointed out that Wang Zong-yue means "Revered King Yue".

I'll leave you with the following article, although what I have presented so far is just a small amount to help interested people start researching this.


"... This important evidence directly proves that Wang Zongyue is also the successor of the "Xinyi Liuhe Thirteen Battle". Therefore, Wang Zongyue is not only the successor of Chenjiagou Tou Taoquan, but also the successor of "Yuewu Muwang Boxing Manual"."
 

Xue Sheng

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I do believe they are different arts, with different emphasis, just that they share much of the same DNA.

My linage contains Chen style and Xinyi liuhe, and I can tell you that they are very similar from a practical standpoint. It is possible to take many moves from Chen style and turn them into xinyi-style exercises. Such as an, an, an, snake spits out tongue, and so forth. My teacher showed me a way to practice fan through the back using san ti shou as a linking posture. So, the way we start teaching Chen style is to show the most difficult postures in line form, as short sets (ex. as I linked above) and then show the whole form so it is easier to learn.

Anyways I'll take what you wrote as a request for evidence -- and the evidence is massive. I would say there is in fact a documented relationship, mainly surrounding the three-three boxing manual and where they got the spear routines. Some notes, mainly from S.Yan, Dai ZQ, etc. will help here, and I will close with a more scholarly article. But I do feel overall, that the roads are pointing in this direction.

(BTW, unfortunately I have lost track of whose notes these are; they have been intermingled, but mainly Dai ZQ's and S.Yan I think):

Because of Damo, the monks had then begun to practice what amounted to daoyin and qigong alongside their martial arts. They soon developed an art called "Xin Yi Ba", which by historical record consisted of the practical movements of general farming and cleaning (such as carrying water, sweeping a broom or shoveling) into a sort of fighting art that they used to defend themselves against wild animals. Shaolin also began to become well-known for their staff fighting skills.

[...]

Xingyi master Dai Longbang wrote the 'Preface to Six Harmonies Boxing' in the 15th reign year of the Qianlong Emperor [1750]. Inside it says, '... when [Yue Fei] was a child, he received special instructions from Zhou Tong. (note: who was a shaolin monk) [...]

[...]

At this time, Ji Longfeng had not yet gained any true inspiration, however, the path to Shaolin runs past the QianZhai Temple in BoAi county. Priest Dong of QianZhai, was famous for his Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) and Tongbei. Dong's liu he chang (six harmony spear) was especially intricate. [...]

This is the same way the merchant Wang Zong Yue passed his Soft Hands and Six Harmony Spear skills to Dong when he passed the temple when he passed by. [...] (see below)

After learning the shenfa of Six Harmony Spear, Ji practiced day and night on the banks of the Yellow River, eventually gaining the level of Six Harmony Divine Spear. He then set off again for Shaolin temple. [...]

Arriving at Shaolin Si, Ji's 6 harmony spear skill was incomparable, the abbot begged Ji to stay at the temple to teach. (this was recorded in the Ji Family Chronicles. In the Shaolin temple's archives, there is a spear manual titled, "Teacher Ji's Spear Manual) Shi Yong Wen, originally from Shaolin, still has it in his care. (The author has visited Shi Yong Wen in Kaifeng, Henan to authenticate the manual.)

The manual in question is exactly the same as the Xin Yi Liu He Chang manual in the author's possession. From this, we can see that Shaolin treated Ji respectfully and called him Ji Lao Shi (teacher, Ji). Therefore this story matches up with the story in the Ji Family Chronicles.

[...]

During the Ming Dynasty, one famous for Six Harmony Spear Li Ke Fu, who used Mei Hua Liu He Chang (Pear Blossom Six Harmony Spear).

The treatise written by Chen Zong You in 1621, The Selection of Long Spear Ways, details the style he learned from Li. General Qi Ji Guang, who lived in the same era as Li, had gone to Tang Jing Zhou, 21 years his senior, in search of instruction ...

In his "New Book of Effective Techniques" are records of Yang Family Spear's 8 Mother Spears, Six Harmony Spear and 24 Spears. The Six Harmony Spear in Tang's book, "Martial Edited Selections", has little differences with the Six Harmony Spear recorded in Qi's manual. [...]

...Xin Yi Spear and taiji are extremely similar ... also has 13 Spears, 21 Spears and 24 Spears etc, and also includes 3 point theory, similar to Xin Yi Liu He. We can see that there is some connection there. It is easy to see why, when in 1887, Mai Zhuangtu's disciple Ding Zhao Xiang visited Chang Nai Zhou's hometown to converse with his 5th generation descendant Chang De Pu, he made a copy of Chang Nai Zhou's treatise, "Tendon Change Classic, Chi Channeling Secret", and included it in his boxing manual.

[...]
Chang Nai Zhou wrote the "Central Chi Theory", and the twenty or so chapters on the "Theory on Yin Yang Entering and supporting" were called the "Tendon Change Classic, Chi Channeling Secret." ...from the same source as as the 3 Point Theory in the Xin Yi Liu He boxing manual. ...Chang was a student of Wang Bao Spear, which came from Taoist Dong of Qian Zhai Temple.

Taoist Dong had incredible skill with Liu He Spear and Staff, ... Chang Nai Zhou (also) had a friendship with Chen Village's 12th generation descendant Chen Ju Xia...

[...]

Chen Family 16 generation descendant Chen Xin once used Taiji theory to edit the Xin Yi Boxing Manual. The part he edited being "3 verses on 10" and renamed the manual the "3, 3 Boxing Manual" ...

14th generation descendant Chen Chang Xing too modified a copy of Xin Yi's "9 Theories" that was passed into Wen county into "Chen Taiji Theories".

=====

Actually I have a lot of notes similar to these pointing out that person X Y or Z either visited chen village or qianzhai, and what they taught or learned there. The general jist of it is that xinyi was one of the arts that intermingled with chen style from multiple sources including visitors to the village, arts taught to the village by qianzhai temple, and shaolin arts itself, and not only that, that they fed back into each other as well. Actually, did you know that Wang Zongyue and Chen Bu both came from the same area? "When you ask me from where I came, the answer is Shanxi Hongdong Big Scholar Tree." Wang Zongyue, by the way, worked as a schoolteacher near Chen village. At least the person who used this name did. Some have pointed out that Wang Zong-yue means "Revered King Yue".

I'll leave you with the following article, although what I have presented so far is just a small amount to help interested people start researching this.


"... This important evidence directly proves that Wang Zongyue is also the successor of the "Xinyi Liuhe Thirteen Battle". Therefore, Wang Zongyue is not only the successor of Chenjiagou Tou Taoquan, but also the successor of "Yuewu Muwang Boxing Manual"."

You are confusing Xinyi and Xingyi in that post, they are not the same thing, Dai Longbang was Xinyi, not Xingyi.

Li Luoneng learned Xinyi from the Dai family, changed it a bit and then you have xingyiquan
 

CMyers0323

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compare the body movement and relaxation of the harder strikes to the ones that do not seem as hard
I figured it was more or less just about relaxing and subtle movements. Are there more direct ways of training this? I don't think I've seen it talked about before
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I figured it was more or less just about relaxing and subtle movements. Are there more direct ways of training this? I don't think I've seen it talked about before
Do your punch by putting your arms behind your back. Try to feel how your body may move.

Try to usderstand the "body method - only see the body move without seeing the arms move" is the key of the training.

This clip has no body method - no body rotation.



This clip has body method - with body rotation.

 

CMyers0323

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Try Zhan Zhuang. It trains you to recognize when your body is acting as a unit.
Thanks I've been meaning to get into it. I'm still fairly new to the internal in terms of experience so I've been doing seated empty minded meditation, along with a basic Zhan Zhauns posture. Well along with Nei Gong. Any tips for getting more into it?
 

CMyers0323

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Do your punch by putting your arms behind your back. Try to feel how your body may move.

Try to usderstand the "body method - only see the body move without seeing the arms move" is the key of the training.

This clip has no body method - no body rotation.



This clip has body method - with body rotation.

I see thanks ill give this a shot. I know some basic concepts for the Elemental strikes. But getting the level of relaxation for each element was what I wasn't to sure of since im sure that's probably what he implied in the "I can strike with different elements"

I've heard of body methods are there specific ones related to each element?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I see thanks ill give this a shot. I know some basic concepts for the Elemental strikes. But getting the level of relaxation for each element was what I wasn't to sure of since im sure that's probably what he implied in the "I can strike with different elements"

I've heard of body methods are there specific ones related to each element?
Are you talking about 5 elements (such as metal, wood, water, fire, earth). I don't know body method has anything to do with that. Body nethod is as simple as "body push/pull limbs". For example, if you want to throw a hook punch, you rotate your body (waist) first. Your body then pull your arm. It may be slower than just swing your arm while freezing your body.
 

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Thanks I've been meaning to get into it. I'm still fairly new to the internal in terms of experience so I've been doing seated empty minded meditation, along with a basic Zhan Zhauns posture. Well along with Nei Gong. Any tips for getting more into it?
Well, meditation is a good complement, but a teacher would be best to help you navigate the stages of ZZ. Teachers usually don't call it "zhan zhuang," but "standing qigong."
As for what goes on, first try to imagine balancing the effort of standing between your calves and thighs, shifting back and forth between heels and balls (of the feet) subtly, until your legs are doing the work. The load will be distributed evenly between those two groups. Next, try distributing it between front core and back core. Then between lifting the arms, versus letting an imaginary counterweight at your shoulder blades (at your back) pull down to bring the arms up, like a bridge:

train-bridge-tampa-florida-train-bridge-tampa-florida-open-position-counterweight-style-bridge-100612150.jpg


Eventually, you want to distribute the effort of standing through as much of your body as possible to create a feeling of full-body unity. Once, after a long session, I felt nothing but the pressure on the soles of my feet, because no other effort caught my attention: nothing stood out. It was great: I felt hollow, but ready to move.

Here's part of an old blog of mine: hopefully these entries will help.

 

Kung Fu Wang

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along with a basic Zhan Zhauns posture. Well along with Nei Gong. Any tips for getting more into it?
Chinese wrestling has 13 postures called "13 Tai Bo".

勗唳 (Han Di Ba Cong) Pull onion off a dry ground
憟蝤冽 (Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharps the axe
隞鈭箇折 (Xian Ren Zhao Jing) Angle look at mirror
曉脰健 (Dun Lian Ge Gu) Dull sickle cut rice
頨急X絲 (She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean
擳 寞
(Kui Xing Dian Dou) Kui Xing points at star
樴瘞 (Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water
蝢瞍Z憭 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky
摮頞瘞 (Yan Zi Chao Shui) Swallow skips water
(He Wo) Combine stance
斗邦斗 (Gu Shu Pan Gen) Old tree twist the root
憭拙 (Tuo Tian Shi) Lift the sky
銝撟 (San Ping) Three plains

13_taibo.jpg


my_13_2.jpg
 

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Are you talking about 5 elements (such as metal, wood, water, fire, earth). I don't know body method has anything to do with that. Body nethod is as simple as "body push/pull limbs". For example, if you want to throw a hook punch, you rotate your body (waist) first. Your body then pull your arm. It may be slower than just swing your arm while freezing your body.
Yeah thats what I meant. I do remember hearing about ones from the leopard and tiger being you turn the head before the body but that isn't exactly the same thing. I see what you mean though that does make sense. When it comes to using the body in different ways "elements" I'm guessing the only realt way is through relaxing and tensing to different degrees
 

CMyers0323

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Well, meditation is a good complement, but a teacher would be best to help you navigate the stages of ZZ. Teachers usually don't call it "zhan zhuang," but "standing qigong."
As for what goes on, first try to imagine balancing the effort of standing between your calves and thighs, shifting back and forth between heels and balls (of the feet) subtly, until your legs are doing the work. The load will be distributed evenly between those two groups. Next, try distributing it between front core and back core. Then between lifting the arms, versus letting an imaginary counterweight at your shoulder blades (at your back) pull down to bring the arms up, like a bridge:

train-bridge-tampa-florida-train-bridge-tampa-florida-open-position-counterweight-style-bridge-100612150.jpg


Eventually, you want to distribute the effort of standing through as much of your body as possible to create a feeling of full-body unity. Once, after a long session, I felt nothing but the pressure on the soles of my feet, because no other effort caught my attention: nothing stood out. It was great: I felt hollow, but ready to move.

Here's part of an old blog of mine: hopefully these entries will help.

Thanks for the in depth info! I may have done some similar things since balancing the weight sounds familiar to some of the basic Tai Chi Training I've done. I do remember hearing also about needing to keep the pelvis balanced and the knees slightly bent. I'll check it out thanks! If I understand right it's alot of good posture and relaxing.
 

CMyers0323

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Chinese wrestling has 13 postures called "13 Tai Bo".

勗唳 (Han Di Ba Cong) Pull onion off a dry ground
憟蝤冽 (Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharps the axe
隞鈭箇折 (Xian Ren Zhao Jing) Angle look at mirror
曉脰健 (Dun Lian Ge Gu) Dull sickle cut rice
頨急X絲 (She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean
擳 寞
(Kui Xing Dian Dou) Kui Xing points at star
樴瘞 (Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water
蝢瞍Z憭 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky
摮頞瘞 (Yan Zi Chao Shui) Swallow skips water
(He Wo) Combine stance
斗邦斗 (Gu Shu Pan Gen) Old tree twist the root
憭拙 (Tuo Tian Shi) Lift the sky
銝撟 (San Ping) Three plains

View attachment 29392


View attachment 29393
Thanks ill look into this as well!
 

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