Is this end of Kukkiwon as we know it?

[Markku P]

I took this from Taekwondo-net Digest

"WTF DAN CERTIFICATES

The WTF in early 2013 altered its rules to provide for WTF Dan certification. This is an exciting development and details are still
being finalised. The WTF Dan certificates will soon be the only recognised certification for the sport of Taekwondo.

Dan and Poom holders will be able to convert their current certification to WTF Dan certification."

 

[Earl Weiss]

Kind of puts a whole new spin on people not understanding that there aren't "WTF Black Belts" or why you need 2 orgs.

 

[Markku P]

A friend of mine noticed: "The WTF in early 2013".. Time machine or not

 

[andyjeffries]

A friend of mine noticed: "The WTF in early 2013".. Time machine or not

I replied to that friend of yours with:

Without knowing STA or having any other verification of this information, but giving them the benefit of the doubt, this could be simply an error in English (or Australian as we English speak a vastly different language ;-) ) when they intended the meaning of "The WTF altered its rules so that from early 2013…"


I know you have a beef with them (only from what I read on here [taekwondo-net]) and have no care as to whether it's a legitimate beef or not, but in this case I think you've jumped on potentially a phrasing error and labelled the intentions behind it [as her post labelled the phrasing as scaremongering].

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think this could be a fine thing, and even a unifying thing. A WTF certificate could be required for olympic sport competition. But getting the WTF certificate only requires that you present your Dan certificate from whatever org originally certified you, not any sort of test. Any org, not just the Kukkiwon.

Hell, you can get a drivers license that way, and that's a lot more important than playing at a sport.

 

[Markku P]

I know you have a beef with them (only from what I read on here [taekwondo-net]) and have no care as to whether it's a legitimate beef or not, but in this case I think you've jumped on potentially a phrasing error and labelled the intentions behind it [as her post labelled the phrasing as scaremongering].

I hope you are not talking about me? ..Just checking?

 

[andyjeffries]

I hope you are not talking about me? ..Just checking?

No, I just posted the reply I sent to your friend. She has a beef with STA as I remember it.

 

[Markku P]

No, I just posted the reply I sent to your friend. She has a beef with STA as I remember it.

It seems it is happening everywhere, not only with Taekwondo

 

[msmitht]

I think this could be a fine thing, and even a unifying thing. A WTF certificate could be required for olympic sport competition. But getting the WTF certificate only requires that you present your Dan certificate from whatever org originally certified you, not any sort of test. Any org, not just the Kukkiwon.

Hell, you can get a drivers license that way, and that's a lot more important than playing at a sport.

So does that mean that any style/org that claims to be tkd, like the ata, could attend the us open or other international events? People could get seriously hurt...

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think this could be a fine thing, and even a unifying thing. A WTF certificate could be required for olympic sport competition. But getting the WTF certificate only requires that you present your Dan certificate from whatever org originally certified you, not any sort of test. Any org, not just the Kukkiwon.

Hell, you can get a drivers license that way, and that's a lot more important than playing at a sport.

So does that mean that any style/org that claims to be tkd, like the ata, could attend the us open or other international events? People could get seriously hurt...

As far as I am concerned, sure. For that matter, I'd be fine with people from non-TKD schools competing. Regardless of what brand is put on their training, so long as they are willing and able to follow the ruleset at a given tourney, let them in.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I took this from Taekwondo-net Digest

"WTF DAN CERTIFICATES

The WTF in early 2013 altered its rules to provide for WTF Dan certification. This is an exciting development and details are still
being finalised. The WTF Dan certificates will soon be the only recognised certification for the sport of Taekwondo.

Dan and Poom holders will be able to convert their current certification to WTF Dan certification."

There are lots of people in the Kukkiwon umbrella who are there for the martial art of Taekwondo. I don't think being able to receive WTF black belt certification will make their Kukkiwon black belt certification irrelevant.

That said, I'll have a WTF certification as soon as I can get it processed. I think it's a great idea.

 

[ETinCYQX]

So does that mean that any style/org that claims to be tkd, like the ata, could attend the us open or other international events? People could get seriously hurt...

Well, it would be kind of like me going to the wrestling US championships because I've done Judo. Similar, but different sports.

Basically what I'm saying is I hope that ATA fighters, as good as they may be, understand that it is a different sport and it takes some time to fight at a big tournament and not get hurt.

 

[chrispillertkd]

That said, I'll have a WTF certification as soon as I can get it processed. I think it's a great idea.

I guess I'm a little unclear about why it's a great idea. Since people could have just as easily transfered their BB certificate to a KKW certificate why is getting a WTF certificate a better idea?

I also thought the whole point of KKW certification was for unification so if that was the case then why have an additional certification? (Dirty Dog said he thought it could be helpful for unification in Taekwon-Do.)

On the other hand, I do find it somewhat amusing that the WTF is telling KKW folks that they should get their certificates just like the KKW was telling ITF'ers they should convert to their certificates in the 1980s and 90s

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

We have been working with an ATA fighter who ia doing well in WTF...he is a Sr Feather weight

 

[Dirty Dog]

I guess I'm a little unclear about why it's a great idea. Since people could have just as easily transfered their BB certificate to a KKW certificate why is getting a WTF certificate a better idea?

I also thought the whole point of KKW certification was for unification so if that was the case then why have an additional certification? (Dirty Dog said he thought it could be helpful for unification in Taekwon-Do.)

On the other hand, I do find it somewhat amusing that the WTF is telling KKW folks that they should get their certificates just like the KKW was telling ITF'ers they should convert to their certificates in the 1980s and 90s

Pax,

Chris

It could possibly move people one step away from the ITF/ATA/KKW politics. Not likely, but possible.

I guess I see this as more of a 'competition certification' than a rank certification, even if that's not how the WTF intends it. That could be unifying: "We don't care what style you practice, we're all TKD together."

 

[chrispillertkd]

It could possibly move people one step away from the ITF/ATA/KKW politics. Not likely, but possible.

This is, indeed, quite possible. FWIW though, from what I have heard GM Choi, Jung Hwa say more than once he seems quite unconcerned about the KKW/WTF. There is much less hard feelings amongst many ITF members towards the WTF and KKW these days already, so I am unsure exactly how much of an impact this move will make. To be honest, it seems like a way for the WTF to raise money more than anything (unless they're going to just give the certificates away).

I guess I see this as more of a 'competition certification' than a rank certification, even if that's not how the WTF intends it. That could be unifying: "We don't care what style you practice, we're all TKD together."

This could be the case, but if so why is it necessary? Just allow anyone who already has a certificate from any organization compete/try out for WTF events. From the little information that was posted it sounds like a straight certificate exchange. You have an ITF certificate? Here's your WTF certificate, no questions asked! Meh. Why do I need another piece of paper?

Given the rules of WTF competitions I will say that it will influence how people who get the WTF certificates train. They will gear their training methods to the rule set. In time it could influence other styles of Taekwon-Do, which I think would be a negative in the long run.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ETinCYQX]

This is, indeed, quite possible. FWIW though, from what I have heard GM Choi, Jung Hwa say more than once he seems quite unconcerned about the KKW/WTF. There is much less hard feelings amongst many ITF members towards the WTF and KKW these days already, so I am unsure exactly how much of an impact this move will make. To be honest, it seems like a way for the WTF to raise money more than anything (unless they're going to just give the certificates away).

I'd expect a minimal fee.

I think it's probably a money making venture, as well as an attempt to branch out and connect with ITF practicioners, outside of the KKW. Maybe we will see the WTF sanctioning ITF rule matches or tournaments? If I could do ITF rules tournaments, I'd give it a shot, it looks like fun.

I also have a friend who is an unassociated black belt, I think he will probably try and get this certificate.

This could be the case, but if so why is it necessary? Just allow anyone who already has a certificate from any organization compete/try out for WTF events. From the little information that was posted it sounds like a straight certificate exchange. You have an ITF certificate? Here's your WTF certificate, no questions asked! Meh. Why do I need another piece of paper?

Spoken like a true ITF Taekwon-doin. WTF/KKW people are crazy about papers .

Given the rules of WTF competitions I will say that it will influence how people who get the WTF certificates train. They will gear their training methods to the rule set. In time it could influence other styles of Taekwon-Do, which I think would be a negative in the long run.

Pax,

Chris

I think you're right, if ITF people decide they'd like to compete in WTF matches/tournaments under the current rules they will train for it. I don't see much of a potential influence besides that.

I agree with you that it would be negative, if it does happen. We need different types of Taekwondo/Taekwon-Do and as much as I like KKW TKD, ITF moving towards our style is not going to do anything but alienate people like yourself. IIRC you said you'd tried KKW and disliked it, so I'm just using you as an example.

I guess I'm a little unclear about why it's a great idea. Since people could have just as easily transfered their BB certificate to a KKW certificate why is getting a WTF certificate a better idea?

Well, honestly I'll probably get it mostly because 1) I like WTF tournaments, 2) I'm secretly hoping for WTF to incorporate an ITF-esque ruleset and 3) I would like it for my resume.

I also thought the whole point of KKW certification was for unification so if that was the case then why have an additional certification? (Dirty Dog said he thought it could be helpful for unification in Taekwon-Do.)

I think the difference is that KKW implies a style, WTF doesn't. Lots of people associate WTF with KKW taekwondo, which isn't really incorrect, but WTF is technically just a sport governing body like AAU.

I On the other hand, I do find it somewhat amusing that the WTF is telling KKW folks that they should get their certificates just like the KKW was telling ITF'ers they should convert to their certificates in the 1980s and 90s

Pax,

Chris

I am sure the KKW would still be more than happy to have you get a KKW certificate no matter how unlikely that is

Ethan

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'd expect a minimal fee.

I'd think so. And just to be clear, I don't have a problem with organziations charging money for certificates. They have overhead, after all (though I am unfamiliar with the WTF's funding).

I think it's probably a money making venture, as well as an attempt to branch out and connect with ITF practicioners, outside of the KKW. Maybe we will see the WTF sanctioning ITF rule matches or tournaments? If I could do ITF rules tournaments, I'd give it a shot, it looks like fun.

You could easily compete at an ITF tournament, excluding WC's (and Nationals/qualifiers) of course since those are limited to ITF members. Aren't you in Canada? There are a fair amount of ITF schools up there.

Spoken like a true ITF Taekwon-doin. WTF/KKW people are crazy about papers .

Ha, so are ITF'ers.

I agree with you that it would be negative, if it does happen. We need different types of Taekwondo/Taekwon-Do and as much as I like KKW TKD, ITF moving towards our style is not going to do anything but alienate people like yourself. IIRC you said you'd tried KKW and disliked it, so I'm just using you as an example.

Yes, I trained in it for a couple of years in college and strapped on the old hogu for the tournaments and even attended a WTF referee course. It was interesting but not really my thing.

Well, honestly I'll probably get it mostly because 1) I like WTF tournaments, 2) I'm secretly hoping for WTF to incorporate an ITF-esque ruleset and 3) I would like it for my resume.

I'd be shocked if the WTF started running competitions with ITF rules.

I think the difference is that KKW implies a style, WTF doesn't. Lots of people associate WTF with KKW taekwondo, which isn't really incorrect, but WTF is technically just a sport governing body like AAU.

Well, strictly speaking that's correct. But the fact is the WTF exercises a strong influence on KKW Taekwon-Do. Styles tend to tailor themselves to the rule sets they use for competititon (for better or worse). This is especially true of sports-heavy styles such as KKW Taekwon-Do, IMHO.

Now, it will be interesting to see 1) how the relationship between the KKW and WTF develop after this and, 2) if it even happens (it seems to me to be somewhat hypothetical at this point).

I am sure the KKW would still be more than happy to have you get a KKW certificate no matter how unlikely that is

"The contingency is remote" (to quote Jack Vance).

Pax,

Chris

 

[rlobrecht]

Our school is independent, but we do the chang hon patterns, and used to exclusively train point style sparring. We compete in AAU tournaments, which used to have point sparring and Olympic style sparring. Now the AAU tournaments seem to only have Olympic style sparring, so we're transitioning to training that (black belts are training only Olympic style, but the colored belts seem to be a mix. I don't see too many hogus in those classes.)

Note the WTF website still sends you to Kukkiwon when you click the Dan grading link.

All matters about black belt Poom/Dan certification are dealt with by the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters). Dan/Poom promotion tests are conducted according to the Regulations for Promotion Tests of the Kukkiwon. To go to the website of the Kukkiwon, please click here.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'd think so. And just to be clear, I don't have a problem with organziations charging money for certificates. They have overhead, after all (though I am unfamiliar with the WTF's funding).

The WTF is actually relatively cheap, the normal annual fees for black belts are $40 which is actually cheaper than the other big sport body I'm associated with (IJF). I think I spent about $200 for two black belts, plus an instructor and a dojang last year which IMO isn't too bad.

You could easily compete at an ITF tournament, excluding WC's (and Nationals/qualifiers) of course since those are limited to ITF members. Aren't you in Canada? There are a fair amount of ITF schools up there.

Yeah, hasn't been an ITF tournament in NL for a while though. Maybe if I move to Ontario in the near future I'll try it. I also don't really want to associate with the ITF although that's more about staying associated with my current school/federation.

Yes, I trained in it for a couple of years in college and strapped on the old hogu for the tournaments and even attended a WTF referee course. It was interesting but not really my thing.

Lots of people feel the same way, even people involved in KKW schools who enjoy KKW TKD. Part of the reason I'd like to see a second ruleset, maybe ITF-like or maybe even like sport Hapkido (Which I'd also do in a heartbeat.)

I'd be shocked if the WTF started running competitions with ITF rules.

I'm thinking it's not too far fetched, maybe not ITF rules but semi-contact sparring may have some appeal to KKW people. AAU I think uses two rulesets in one tournament.

Well, strictly speaking that's correct. But the fact is the WTF exercises a strong influence on KKW Taekwon-Do. Styles tend to tailor themselves to the rule sets they use for competititon (for better or worse). This is especially true of sports-heavy styles such as KKW Taekwon-Do, IMHO.

Now, it will be interesting to see 1) how the relationship between the KKW and WTF develop after this and, 2) if it even happens (it seems to me to be somewhat hypothetical at this point).

Pax,

Chris

Yeah the relationship is similar to IJF and the Kodokan. I think maybe we will see less WTF influence on the KKW, if it changes anything.