Would this position be legal for non-brown/black in IBJJF?

[skribs113 133]

I'm going through Brian Glick's leg entanglements series (review forthcoming). One of the issues I have with this instructional is he doesn't differentiate between rulesets. For example, the first technique he shows is how to use a reap to maintain guard, which would be a DQ except in adult brown/black no-gi.

In this image, he does not have a reap. However, he's using his hands to turn the heel. In this case, he's not trying to submit the opponent with this turning action, but is instead looking to force his opponent to roll so he can follow through into a better position and then attack the foot.

Is this action IBJJF legal (below brown)?

 

[skribs113 133]

I have another one to add to this discussion/question:

I do not believe this would count as a reap, because even though his right leg is wrapped outside-to-inside, the direction of turn is inside-to-outside. Is that correct?

 

[HighKick]

I doubt this will help with your query, but many seminars will show you 'what works', not what is allowed in a given ruleset. Unless it is advertised as a (insert federation name) competition training event, I would think nothing is out of bounds.
Yes, I do think the lower photo is a reap because of the knee entanglement.

 

[skribs113 133]

I doubt this will help with your query, but many seminars will show you 'what works', not what is allowed in a given ruleset.

When I've been in seminars where things like that have come up, it's always had a small caveat. For example, "Blue belts and up, you can wristlock here", or something like that.

 

[HighKick]

When I've been in seminars where things like that have come up, it's always had a small caveat. For example, "Blue belts and up, you can wristlock here", or something like that.

Yeah, that is where I do not understand the rules or belting guidelines. If it is something that works, it is going to work regardless of rank. In theory at least.

 

[skribs113 133]

Yeah, that is where I do not understand the rules or belting guidelines. If it is something that works, it is going to work regardless of rank. In theory at least.

Except for this:

If I (a purple belt) were to reap in competition, it wouldn't be "effective", because it would be a DQ. If I were to do a heel hook, it wouldn't be "effective", because it would be a DQ.

 

[jks919985 10]

For competition, the issue isn't necessarily what will work, but what can be done with mutual safety. The sweep or lock might well be effective -- maybe even TOO effective if the competitors lack the control or sensitivity on when to stop or don't know how to receive the technique safely. In striking arts, for example, head contact is often prohibited below black or brown belt. It's not that you can't hit someone on the head... it's that you can easily HURT rthrlem if you do.

 

[skribs113 133]

it's that you can easily HURT rthrlem if you do.

Did someone hit you in the head while you were writing this sentence?

 

[skribs113 133]

I got my answers from my Professor.

The first position is a heel hook even if it's not the submission. As soon as I grab the heel to turn, it's an illegal move. This is in contrast to a situation where I'm doing an ankle pick take-down, in which it is fine to grab the heel.

The second position is a reap. In this case, they would stop it.

 

[HighKick]

Except for this:
View attachment 34118

If I (a purple belt) were to reap in competition, it wouldn't be "effective", because it would be a DQ. If I were to do a heel hook, it wouldn't be "effective", because it would be a DQ.

I can see where it could be very easy to break a competition rule. When you train are these illegal techniques left out based on belt level? If so, I am sure you know it opens up the can of worms about martial art versus martial sport.

 

[skribs113 133]

I can see where it could be very easy to break a competition rule. When you train are these illegal techniques left out based on belt level? If so, I am sure you know it opens up the can of worms about martial art versus martial sport.

Different schools approach this in different ways. Some schools teach everything to everyone, and then go into specific rules only for those who are competing.

What I think is more common is what my school does: our normal class focuses on white belt techniques.

• If there's kids in the class and we're doing techniques kids are not allowed to do (i.e. guillotine choke, straight ankle lock) we will tell them they can do it in the adult class, but not the kids class or kids competition.
• If there's blue/purple and there's a detail relating to wristlocks, it will be mentioned. For example, certain grips are more susceptible to wrist locks, so "blue and up, your thumb should be here, so if they grab your elbow you can release the grip and not get stuck in a wristlock."
• Techniques aimed specifically at brown/black belts (heel hook, knee bar, etc.) are going to be discussed 1-on-1 or in a private lesson. We don't have enough brown and black belts that they need their own portion of the group instruction.

At our school, we specifically say that our curriculum focuses on IBJJF competition rules. If someone wants to train outside of that, we'll work with them. For example:

• If you're a white belt and you want to play with wristlocks, you can ask an upper belt when rolling with them if you want to play by their rules.
• I was planning on doing a Grappling Industries competition, in which blue belts can do heel hooks, knee bars, and toe-holds. I talked with my Professor, he said I could ask the brown/black belts to play by those rules. They were very happy to knee bar me.
• Trusted upper belts are allowed to catch lower belts in these techniques, but obviously we don't rip them. It's more of a way to let folks know those techniques are going to be there when they get a few more stripes.

 

[skribs113 133]

Maybe I was harshly judging this instructional. My Professor said they're not going to say what you can do at each belt level. Just what works.

I do find it frustrating, but I guess that's the culture.