Would Guns Have Prevented The Shooting?

[MJS]

So we don't sidetrack the discussion on the Virginia shootings, I thought I'd start this thread. There was mention in the other thread that a news spokesperson stated that if the students of the college were allowed to carry guns, then perhaps this tragic event could have been stopped sooner.

Thoughts?

 

[mrhnau]

So we don't sidetrack the discussion on the Virginia shootings, I thought I'd start this thread. There was mention in the other thread that a news spokesperson stated that if the students of the college were allowed to carry guns, then perhaps this tragic event could have been stopped sooner.

Thoughts?

How about other options? Stricter gun control would have prevented the crime? Having looser gun control would have made it worse? I honestly don't believe those, but they are valid options, and I'm sure some people believe it.

 

[MJS]

How about other options? Stricter gun control would have prevented the crime? Having looser gun control would have made it worse? I honestly don't believe those, but they are valid options, and I'm sure some people believe it.

Yes, you make some good points. While I don't carry or even own a handgun, I'm not against people owning them. I do feel though, that if someone is going to own one, that they should be responsible with it. This includes, but is not limited to care, operation, the laws and my personal one...if you're going to use it for protection, be sure that you can operate under stressful conditions.

Would tighter gun control have made a difference? I read in my local paper that the guns did not have serial numbers. That should be a sign right there that something was not right with those guns.

Mike

 

[Jade Tigress]

I'm not comfortable with the thought of a bunch of college students walking with guns. In the long run, potential is for more shootings if anything. Whether it's accidental, or a spur of moment response in anger. In this instance I don't it would have stopped the shootings, it may have stopped the shooter sooner. Then again, it could have resulted in hundreds of kids firing all over the place in a panic.

 

[mrhnau]

Yes, you make some good points. While I don't carry or even own a handgun, I'm not against people owning them. I do feel though, that if someone is going to own one, that they should be responsible with it. This includes, but is not limited to care, operation, the laws and my personal one...if you're going to use it for protection, be sure that you can operate under stressful conditions.

totally agreed... Between me and my family, we have a small arsenal My dad collects some old guns (ww1, ww2) and my brother-in-law is a cop. We all love target shooting

I think a concealed carry permit is an excellant idea. However, from my understanding, at most public universities you are not allowed to carry. Would it have helped? I think so... people still would have died, but it might have been alot less.

Would tighter gun control have made a difference? I read in my local paper that the guns did not have serial numbers. That should be a sign right there that something was not right with those guns.

Yeah, thats going to make tracking the gun hard. That's really the only logical reason for this, especially since he killed himself. Might protect a friend that he got the gun from.... I'm not up on gun laws, but can a non-citizen purchase a hand-gun?

I'm not comfortable with the thought of a bunch of college students walking with guns. In the long run, potential is for more shootings if anything. Whether it's accidental, or a spur of moment response in anger. In this instance I don't it would have stopped the shootings, it may have stopped the shooter sooner. Then again, it could have resulted in hundreds of kids firing all over the place in a panic.

Does this happen in places that do allow concealed carry w/ permit? Honestly, I don't know that many people that carry even when allowed. On this board, those numbers might be a bit higher, but in the general public I'd be suprised to see more than 10% of the people carrying. I'd be curious to see how crime statistics change when regions allow concealed carry...

 

[Lisa]

I'm not comfortable with the thought of a bunch of college students walking with guns. In the long run, potential is for more shootings if anything. Whether it's accidental, or a spur of moment response in anger. In this instance I don't it would have stopped the shootings, it may have stopped the shooter sooner. Then again, it could have resulted in hundreds of kids firing all over the place in a panic.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. You would never have hundreds of kids with them.

If given the option to carry a handgun, the vast majority would not do so. Simply put, most people don't feel the need to have one. If given the opportunity to have a CCW on campus, most would not take advantage of that situation because they fear, just as you do, the same things happening as you stated above. Those that would have them most likely are those that have the training, know how to use it and are more then likely ready to do so thus eliminating unwarranted shootings and accidents.

People get the idea that if you give the majority of the population a choice, that all hell could break loose. If this were true, we would be seeing cowboy type shoot outs all across the nation.

Now, I don't know if there would have been an opportunity for someone to gun down the gunman and thus save some lives. That is all dependent on timing and situation. We could speculate forever and never know the answer.

 

[Grenadier]

People in Virginia, who want to carry a concealed firearm lawfully, must apply for permits through the proper channels, undergo training, and demonstrate that they can reasonably handle a firearm.

Also, people who do choose to get concealed carry permits are not permitted to have any violent misdemeanors or domestic violence incidents on their records, and any sort of felony = automatic denial.

If someone has a concealed carry permit, then I have no problems with them carrying around a lawfully-owned concealed firearm, provided that they keep it concealed, and behave in a responsible manner.

Whether it's a student, faculty member, staff member, etc., makes no difference to me.

The incident in Mississippi, where assistant principal Joel Myrick, stopped a rampage with his lawfully-owned handgun, along with the incident in Austin, Texas (Charles Whitman, the tower sniper) should be more than enough proof, that having law abiding armed citizens can make the difference in lives being saved.

 

[Ninjamom]

First, thank you very much for taking this discussion off to a new thread, and not bogging down the other thread. I was deeply grieved to see, on another forum I frequent, an entire thread dedicated to solace for the victims and their families completely hijacked for the denunciation by non-US citizens of Americans and their guns.

Second, I wish there were a few more options on the poll. I don't believe arming students would have stopped the attack. It would almost certainly have lowered the duration and lethality, however. And given the maturity level (or total lack thereof) an typical American college campuses, I'm not sure arming students is wise, either.

Several people have already commented in other places about the part that armed bystanders played in allowing the capture of the 'Tower Shooter' back in 1966. I had also heard years ago (MUST check sources - if anyone else can confirm or deny, please post) that schools in northern Israel were routinely being raided by gunmen based in the Shaaba region of southern Lebanon in the late 1960's, until all teachers in those schools were required to carry guns. Obviously, being armed does provide some protection and a deterent.

I think it would be wise to authorize carry permits for faculty in most school settings, especially faculty teaching the most vulnerable (i.e., youngest) students. Training could be mandated and enforced, and locked storage within the classroom could be required. Such limited availability of guns in a controlled fashion by the 'goodguys', together with lockdown procedures already in place in most schools, could go a long way towards limiting the lethality of future attacks.

 

[CoryKS]

It depends. If students were allowed to carry guns, it might have prevented the shooting altogether if the shooter was rational enough to factor that in. Since he killed himself we know that he wasn't afraid to die. But if he knew that he would die before being able to create a large spectacle, he might have changed his mind. Or he might have gone elsewhere. Or he might have run the odds and decided that very few students would a) purchase a gun; and b) carry it with them everywhere, and he might have gone through with it.

Kids* being what they are, I expect that we would have seen over the years a number of accidental discharge reports or other kinds of dumb****ery followed by the inevitable push to disallow CCW. Whether this happened before or after yesterday would determine whether this would even be a factor in the shootings.



*or rather, childish adults, of which colleges have many.

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm not comfortable with the thought of a bunch of college students walking with guns. In the long run, potential is for more shootings if anything. Whether it's accidental, or a spur of moment response in anger. In this instance I don't it would have stopped the shootings, it may have stopped the shooter sooner. Then again, it could have resulted in hundreds of kids firing all over the place in a panic.

I completely disagree! First off, just because someone carries a gun does not mean they are going to start firing wilding in panic. I believe that is a misconception that the media has perpetuated. I believe that most if not all states that allow carry, require some form of training or other on gun safety and marksmanship.

Aside from that, I question why that many students allowed the shooter to line them up and shoot them execution style (as I understood CNN this morning). Even unarmed, how could this person kill 32 people. Didn't anyone make stand? I think this points to something far more problematic.

 

[Monadnock]

This from the President of the University:

When asked what could be done to avert a tragedy like this, the
president of the University responded that, "We obviously can't have
an armed guard in front of every classroom every day." To which the
Firearms Coalition responds: If you admit that you can't protect
people, why do you insist on taking away people's ability to protect
themselves?

I feel the University has some fault in this.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I guess my concerns stemmed from two things, one is I was picturing the youngest of college students, like right out of high school. The other is that while I have fired a guns before, I am not a firearms enthusiast so I do not have the education you all do on the matter, and I do believe people should be allowed to carry. I just had the "cowboy shootout" image in my head in this specific situation. LOL It was just the initial image that came to mind, and admittedly, the image I had is not accurate, but it was all I could think of nonetheless. So, from the firearm educated, do you feel the situation would have been prevented if students were carrying? Isn't there already security on campus?

 

[jdinca]

Tighter gun control isn't the answer. Better standards for training and screening before being allowed to purchase a gun may help but if someone wants a gun for the wrong reasons, they're going to find one, no matter what restrictions you put in place.

The thought that some of the students may have been armed could have given this guy pause for thought, or at the very least, given the students a fighting chance, instead of waiting in their rooms like cattle.

I'm not sure there will be a lot of lessons to be learned from this one, other than reinforcement that there are sick people in this world, bent on taking others down with them.

 

[Bigshadow]

This from the President of the University:



I feel the University has some fault in this.

Certainly they do! I agree! IMO If the university prevents the students from protecting themselves, then the university is OBLIGATED to provide personal security. If they cannot, they shouldn't be allowed to deny students personal protection. I believe the same goes for businesses that do not allow legal conceal carry on their property.

 

[Grenadier]

So, from the firearm educated, do you feel the situation would have been prevented if students were carrying?

A bit of a side note: You have to be 21 or older to lawfully carry a concealed firearm in Virginia. Thus, few of the students would have had the opportunity to get a concealed carry permit.

Still, the fact remains, that faculty, staff, and older students, could have been eligible to carry, could have certainly made a difference. It would not have prevented the tragedy entirely; someone hell-bent on trying to kill another is going to at least find a way, and most likely, be somewhat successful, but the number of casualties could have been cut down.

Isn't there already security on campus?

Yes, but Virginia Tech is a very large, populous campus, and they can't be everywhere at the same time. I can't fault the campus police, nor the police of Blacksburg, etc., since they can only do what they are told to do. The fact that they knew very little about the shooter (that he was an Asian wearing a vest) did little to help their situation, since there are many Asians on campus. I don't even fault them for pointing their guns at the students (who were probably already terrified beyond what most of us here have ever felt), since the shooter could have been hiding amongst them, or pretending to be one of them.

 

[Ping898]

On a similar vein, someone at work recently asked why liscenced owners weren't allowed to carry guns on our property and the response was:

A study published in the American Journal of Public Health found that workplaces that allow workers to carry firearms and other weapons at work were five times more likely to be the site of an on the job homicide compared to workplaces that prohibit workers from carrying weapons. ("Employer Policies Toward Guns and the Risk of Homicide in the Workplace," American Journal of Public Health, May 2005, pp. 830-832.)

 

[Bigshadow]

FYI, By late middle school I was already pretty handy with the steel. I knew many high school students who I would have no problems trusting with a gun.

So, from the firearm educated, do you feel the situation would have been prevented if students were carrying?

Prevented? Probably not, nut jobs like that will always find a way to kill. If it were not a gun it could have very well been a wall hanger samurai sword, a machete, kitchen knife, baseball bat, etc. There is myriad of devices out there to bludgeon and kill with. People like the shooter will kill regardless. However, the killing could have been minimized if students were carrying.

Isn't there already security on campus?

Campus security is no different than Municipal security (aka Law Enforcement). They are to keep the peace of the community. They are not there for personal security. The best they can do is mop up, count the dead, and write the report after it is over. With the exception of taking out the killer if he/she is still on the loose. Protection is a personal responsibility.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Thanks for enlightening me on the specifics folks. It's a tragic event, and something must be done to prevent these things from happening again. FWIW, I have never supported tighter gun control. My concern is more from a school enviroment/age factor. There's just lots of things to think about and it's upsetting to hear of such an event as took place yesterday.

 

[Monadnock]

Certainly they do! I agree! IMO If the university prevents the students from protecting themselves, then the university is OBLIGATED to provide personal security. If they cannot, they shouldn't be allowed to deny students personal protection. I believe the same goes for businesses that do not allow legal conceal carry on their property.

Yup. On the same note, I can remember a time when Banks had thick glass windows in front of the Tellers. Now, most seem to have an open look to them. Of all the places someone is going to rob with a gun, and now they do this.

I'm not saying that college clasrooms need to be inside Vaults, but they and businesses alike need to allow people to excercise their 2nd Ammendment rights if they can't provide security.

My company is the same way. But at this point in time, the paycheck is worth more than my making a statement and quitting over their idiotic policy. However, they do require keycards to gain access. But that doesn't provent the wierdo down the hall to go "Ballistic."

 

[Bigshadow]

A study published in the American Journal of Public Health found that workplaces that allow workers to carry firearms and other weapons at work were five times more likely to be the site of an on the job homicide compared to workplaces that prohibit workers from carrying weapons. ("Employer Policies Toward Guns and the Risk of Homicide in the Workplace," American Journal of Public Health, May 2005, pp. 830-832.)

To be honest, I don't put a whole lot of stock in their studies when it comes to the topic of guns. They are notoriously anti-gun, so their studies about guns carry about as much influence in my opinions and thoughts as those published by Sarah Brady's organizations.