World Jiu-Jitsu Champion Killed

Alan0354

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It's no point talking about guns. Gun wins no matter what.

I only talk about MA here, not interested in guns as the subject. We all know once the gun is involved, it's the end of the game, forget MA.

I am just commenting on what you said about BJJ calling CMA fake or BS. I am sure they refers to actual hand to hand fight, NOT talking about fighting against weapons like knife or gun. It's from the UFC in the early days that there almost no rules other than no eyes poking and no biting. Everything else goes. BJJ kicked everyone's butt.
 
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Shakya

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It's no point talking about guns. Gun wins no matter what.
Not necessarily. If someone pulls a gun and aims it at you, there's still self-defense options if you are desperate. I'm not saying they'll always be effective - and in the same way, a gun can jam, the gunman can be bluffing, or the hand holding the gun can be wrapped close like some knife defense techniques, and so on.

Also, it seems you are obsessed with competitive fighting - trading blow for blow. But some effective MA are not primarily revolving around that. As people above have mentioned, martial arts is also about self-defense, and part of that is understanding risks and psychology - as well as de-escalating, evading, and escaping.

East Asian martial arts incorporating Zen Buddhist values, for example, focus on neutralising bullies 'without a fight'.

I'm sure you're familiar with CMA ideas about yielding and luring opponent into false sense of security and then doing a sudden blitz attack to take them out? In such cases, there's no physical 'fight' - there's just lure and finish. CMA like Wing Chun are famous for that strategy, for example.

I only talk about MA here, not interested in guns as the subject.
I don't see guns as "the subject" here, but we're discussing a world champion martial arts master who got into a street fight and then lost his life at the hands of a much less skilled opponent.

So, like it or not, the potential of a gun being drawn in a street fight is always present, and since martial arts are often about self defense on the streets, the presence of the gun is highly relevant to the present discussion.

What I have been saying is that most traditional martial arts teach that when you square up in a fighting stance against someone on the street, you should be ready for a concealed weapon to be potentially drawn - no matter a knife or gun. Even a traditional CMA like monkey kung fu from Shaolin would teach you this.

And here on this thread we are discussing the death of a supposed "modern highly effective" ("ultimate") martial arts master being killed in the streets after he squared up in a fighting stance against a guy who was much less skilled.

So there's obviously something going wrong with peoples' perspective of martial arts here!


I am just commenting on what you said about BJJ calling CMA fake or BS. I am sure they refers to actually hand to hand fight, NOT talking about weapons like knife or gun.

I am talking about fighting in competition, if CMA has the goods, they can win even though there are rules.

As I've said already - when guns came along, all the practical effective OVERLAPS of CMA with effective MMA techniques you see today we're lost, but now they are slowly being recovered and restored.

Check this out, for example:


But some styles - like FMA knife and stick stuff, tend to prioritise knives and sticks, and their hands forms that directly relate to those weapons are inferior to empty hand forms - just as much as BJJ is inferior to a tough street bum's fighting instincts with a concealed knife.

But I know which MA I'd like to have training in when I'm cornered by a psychotic street thug wielding a knife ... the FMA, hands down. But you can stick to your octagon-only tested stuff if you feel that's gonna keep your genes surviving into the future when facing the streets, my guy. And good luck with that!

That it has to resort to eyes poking and hitting the groin etc before they can win?
No, not at all. There's plenty of elbows, trapping, and grappling stuff (like from traditional Chinese wrestling, for example) thrown in - as well as leanings towards giving various weapons - like knives and sticks, amplified potential.

Monkey boxing famously has its pole, and no doubt had its own stick and knife forms back in the day. That's probably the original 'BJJ with knife' style - plus some dirty hand strikes thrown in.

But for some reason there's selective vision when observing overlaps between MMA and CMA. Leading to situations like Tony Ferguson training trapping flowing into elbow on a Wing Chun wooden dummy, and destroying Petis with that technique, only for the MMA crowd to claim it all under the title of muay thai 'being trained on a wing chun dummy,' lol.

So people see what they want to see, don't they...

"martial arts is only about competitive sport-like fighting, not self-defense that lures in and then blitzes", "real martial arts fighting doesn't involve weapons and is only validated in the octagon", "fighting never involves the possibility of guns - and once a gun is drawn, the gun-wielder automatically wins the non-existent fight before they even fire a bullet", ... And so on and so forth....

There's big money if one wins, the style will be revere like BJJ.
No it won't be "revered."
Because even though there is triangle choke in something like monkey boxing (I'm just using this example all the time because it sounds like a ridiculous CMA style that easily gets joked about), it'll be claimed it only belongs to BJJ 仄. Just like what happened to Tiny Ferguson's brutal match-winning elbows.

MMA likes to claim that it can mix and match arts due to those arts' overlaps, but it often refuses to acknowledge any overlaps with traditional CMA and tends to dismiss weapons-heavy MAs as any kind of valid MA outright, lol.

And now Lo is dead , and we hope to avoid more such killings of world champion martial artists仄.

So that's why I'm discussing this so much here. Because there's obviously something going wrong somewhere.

A world champion martial arts master was killed by an average Joe idiot, and in my view, and others' view here, martial arts is as much about EFFECTIVE SELF DEFENSE as it is about competitive fighting. And Lo was supposed to be a 'martial arts MASTER'.... So where was his effective self-defense dimension?
 

Alan0354

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I am really not interested in this discussion. Like I said, go win some fight, challenge them on the street. Video tape it. Win a fight, then talk. I am sure if they are as good as you said, they can easily win.
 

Shakya

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I am really not interested in this discussion. Like I said, go win some fight, challenge them on the street. Video tape it. Win a fight, then talk. I am sure if they are as good as you said, they can easily win.
Ah don't be a bad 'sport' now, Alan.

Anyway, I don't need to do what you suggest myself.

Fighter XieWei in One FC, former Kung Fu coach at Shaolin, has been successful enough. And all those so-called "MMA techniques" he's been winning with you find in Shaolin kungfu 仄.

But no, I get it - recognised overlaps between styles and schools' techniques are only allowed between 'westernised' sporty MA, right .

A Shaolin guy's gotta win with a snake fist to the heart chakra or something, lol, and an Indian guy's gotta use yoga flame.

Well, I learned something today - that westernised sporty MA have a monopoly on punching with closed fist, roundhouse kicks, and chokes, apparently . Got it 不 (even though the Chinese combined competitive striking and grappling together to form a kind of MMA (called SanDa) before Bruce Lee was even born....).
 

Alan0354

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Ah don't be a bad 'sport' now, Alan.

Anyway, I don't need to do what you suggest myself.

Fighter XieWei in One FC, former Kung Fu coach at Shaolin, has been successful enough. And all those so-called "MMA techniques" he's been winning with you find in Shaolin kungfu 仄.

But no, I get it - recognised overlaps between styles and schools' techniques are only allowed between 'westernised' sporty MA, right .

A Shaolin guy's gotta win with a snake fist to the heart chakra or something, lol, and an Indian guy's gotta use yoga flame.

Well, I learned something today - that westernised sporty MA have a monopoly on punching with closed fist, roundhouse kicks, and chokes, apparently . Got it 不 (even though the Chinese combined competitive striking and grappling together to form a kind of MMA (called SanDa) before Bruce Lee was even born....).
Like I said, have the goods, get into the octagon. No need to waste time writing so much. If they have MMA in shaolin kungfu, they should have no problem entering the octagon and win. I would love to see monkey or snake style beat the crap out of those UFC fighters.

Ha ha, When I was in Hong Kong, I heard it all. Like after Bruce Lee died, so many people came out and said they could beat Lee. Where were they when Lee was alive? Same thing now, 30 years after Gracie kicked their butts, still bad mouthing, still making excuses. Everything except fight. If you don't think those cannot win in the octagon because of the rules, just say it out. I'll understand.


OH yeh, I forgot, I heard people said they cannot use the real kungfu because it's TOO DEADLY!!! That's a good one.
 
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drop bear

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Gun is gun, it's a totally different subject from MA. I think what you are talking about people talking down CMA mainly because of the result of UFC and other MMA competitions. BJJ was once dominated the scene in the early 90s, but MMA improved and now you don't hear people praising BJJ like back in the 90s.

I don't know what people in the BJJ community said, but Royce Gracie did NOT dominate UFC that long, he got his butt handed to him over 10 years ago already by Matt Huges. In this modern age, MA evolve very fast, one cannot hold onto the old stuffs from long time ago. Bruce Lee came onto the scene over 50 years ago combining boxing, TKD and WC, taking the best of each and really dominated the scene. He literally started the kick boxing. Then in the early 90s, Royce Gracie and his BJJ shocked the world MA scene destroying all the striking MAs. But that did not last, wrestling and others soon came in. Then people combine those and striking together to become MMA. As good as Bruce Lee, I doubted he last 1 minute in UFC fight.

Even MMA is improving everyday. I can watch a fight and tell pretty much what era it was from because the way they fight in UFC is very very different even a few short years apart. MMA literally combined the best of a few together, namely Muy Thai, BJJ, wrestling making up the major part, then a little from different style. Like they use WC front step kick to the knee, it's very common in the fights. The old style MA really need to open their mind, be humble and start looking inward to improve if they want to keep up with the new world. It's a different world, no room for trash talk, get into the octagon and win some fights, people will take notice. No talking is needed.

There are more BJJ practitioners who haven't been shot and killed than have been.

Your odds of doing BJJ and not dying are pretty good.
 

Shakya

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I would love to see monkey or snake style beat the crap out of those UFC fighters.
You can see it all the time 仄, lol.

It's just you seem to think efficient punches, kicks, cranks, and chokes - the bread and butter of ANY serious fighting system, only belong to muay thai, BJJ, and/or western boxing.

If you are indeed of east asian descent and you think it never occurred to a Chinese person to spar in the way we see with Sanda or Thai boxing today (with Sanda predating Western MMA by decades, in any case), then you should feel ashamed. Of course they sparred - and viciously so. Why do you think that CMA masters were often also Chinese doctors with considerable knowledge of bone resetting - putting shoulders back in, and so forth?

The fact that MMA can even exist - that styles such as karate, savate, muay thai, and wing chun can overlap in their core strikes and grappling - kicks, elbows, closed fist punching, chokes, and so on - all from different countries and cultures, but overlapping so well, should indicate to you what's going on here.

All MAs are the same thing at their core - basic 'MMA' striking and grappling.

The only thing that makes styles different is eccentricities such as championing a certain weapon in combination with striking or grappling, or spiritual ethics of luring in bullies with yielding, or using hypnosis even - check out Werdum (UFC heavyweight champ) getting pushed around by taichi hypnosis wizard Adam Mizner - with Werdum claiming here on video, "My father told me about this power", lol:


So there's an octagon champ - another MASTER, but here deferring to an out of shape taichi wizard's power - his strongest UFC-winning guard stance undermined by only two fingers 不. Another South American world champ getting ruined.

Anyway, it's up to you - if you enjoy the tribalism and want to pretend any one style has a monopoly on the core strikes and grappling of ANY serious MA, that's up to you.

But the fact remains, Sanda was established in China decades before MMA even existed as an idea, and that Sanda was created by combining the core strikes and grappling from traditional CMA.

The "too deadly" thing is a red herring. The key issue here is about MMA declaring that competitive sparring and it's core overlapping techniques only belong to English boxing, Savate, MT or BJJ, lol.

It's as if Sanda didn't predate MMA, and Wing Chun never had elbows, teep, knees, or clinch type techniques, and Chinese traditional wrestling never existed.

Gimme a break.
 

Ivan

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Just came across this news.
This news makes me think of sports vs self defense when people wonder what the difference is.

There are multiple stories about what happened but the end result is the same a lost of life at age 33.
To lose your life over a beer bottle...
 

Shakya

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To lose your life over a beer bottle...
Not exactly the movie 300 was it...

It reminds me of this quote:

Screenshot_20220809-175422_Firefox_1.jpg
 

Dirty Dog

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I am really not interested in this discussion.
Then stop participating in it. Simple.
Like I said, go win some fight, challenge them on the street. Video tape it. Win a fight, then talk. I am sure if they are as good as you said, they can easily win.
I've had a knife pulled on me three times. I was injured once. Never occurred to me to ask them to video the assaults.
 

Steve

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I believe good things happen to bad people sometimes. A unstable person had access to a firearm and used it.
 

Shakya

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I've had a knife pulled on me three times. I was injured once. Never occurred to me to ask them to video the assaults.
Interesting.
Do you factor the potential of guns and knives being pulled when you meet bullies on the street - as a part of your MA mind set?
 

Shakya

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I believe good things happen to bad people sometimes. A unstable person had access to a firearm and used it.
And that can also be factored into your self-defense mind set for the streets, no?
To attempt to minimise the potential of suffering that 'law' as a default strategy?

That said, there's always a limit to how much of our own pride we can swallow, though, eh. And bars are notorious for people who are tanked up on 'liquid courage,' and also depressed guys looking to prove themselves.

It's easy to be captain hindsight on this matter involving Lo.
 

Alan0354

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You can see it all the time 仄, lol.

It's just you seem to think efficient punches, kicks, cranks, and chokes - the bread and butter of ANY serious fighting system, only belong to muay thai, BJJ, and/or western boxing.

If you are indeed of east asian descent and you think it never occurred to a Chinese person to spar in the way we see with Sanda or Thai boxing today (with Sanda predating Western MMA by decades, in any case), then you should feel ashamed. Of course they sparred - and viciously so. Why do you think that CMA masters were often also Chinese doctors with considerable knowledge of bone resetting - putting shoulders back in, and so forth?

The fact that MMA can even exist - that styles such as karate, savate, muay thai, and wing chun can overlap in their core strikes and grappling - kicks, elbows, closed fist punching, chokes, and so on - all from different countries and cultures, but overlapping so well, should indicate to you what's going on here.

All MAs are the same thing at their core - basic 'MMA' striking and grappling.

The only thing that makes styles different is eccentricities such as championing a certain weapon in combination with striking or grappling, or spiritual ethics of luring in bullies with yielding, or using hypnosis even - check out Werdum (UFC heavyweight champ) getting pushed around by taichi hypnosis wizard Adam Mizner - with Werdum claiming here on video, "My father told me about this power", lol:


So there's an octagon champ - another MASTER, but here deferring to an out of shape taichi wizard's power - his strongest UFC-winning guard stance undermined by only two fingers 不. Another South American world champ getting ruined.

Anyway, it's up to you - if you enjoy the tribalism and want to pretend any one style has a monopoly on the core strikes and grappling of ANY serious MA, that's up to you.

But the fact remains, Sanda was established in China decades before MMA even existed as an idea, and that Sanda was created by combining the core strikes and grappling from traditional CMA.

The "too deadly" thing is a red herring. The key issue here is about MMA declaring that competitive sparring and it's core overlapping techniques only belong to English boxing, Savate, MT or BJJ, lol.

It's as if Sanda didn't predate MMA, and Wing Chun never had elbows, teep, knees, or clinch type techniques, and Chinese traditional wrestling never existed.

Gimme a break.
Ha ha, I have not even read this, don't waste your time. I said all I have to say. Read back my posts as the reply. Like I said, they know all those stuffs, they should have no fear to get into the octagon and win. What's stopping them?
 

Alan0354

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Then stop participating in it. Simple.

I've had a knife pulled on me three times. I was injured once. Never occurred to me to ask them to video the assaults.
No, I said if they think they can win and want no rules to fight, have someone do the video taping, then go challenge a top UFC guy on the street, do the fight with no rules on the street and tape it. If he can win, put the video on youtube, it will go viral. He'll get famous without getting into the octagon. Simple
 

Shakya

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Ha ha, I have not even read this, don't waste your time. I said all I have to say. Read back my posts as the reply. Like I said, they know all those stuffs, they should have no fear to get into the octagon and win. What's stopping them?
Okay, you're obviously going through something in your life. I wish you peace . You can get through anything - it just takes discipline.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Just came across this news.
This news makes me think of sports vs self defense when people wonder what the difference is.

There are multiple stories about what happened but the end result is the same a lost of life at age 33.
Just a couple of thoughts.

First of all, I am very sorry that this young man lost his life. It's sad and tragic and I wish it had not happened.

Now, my thoughts on this and similar matters.

1) Alcohol is bad and should be avoided unless drinking at home and alone.
2) Places where alcohol is served should also be avoided as a self-defense precept.
3) Avoid fighting over things that do not matter, like stolen bottles from a table.
4) If one is forced to fight, end the threat. Submitting someone works in sport, not in self-defense against drunks.
5) No one has anything to prove. Proving things makes people dead or seriously injured. Avoid it. Be thought a weakling or a coward, but be alive. One can prove themselves in a ring against sober people with rules in place if one feels they must.
 
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