Wing Chun As An Art

[wayfaring]

So I may be in a different place right now because of a positive experience exchanging and practicing with other lineage wing chun practitioners, but my feelings are that when we all join together especially online it trends more towards being critical of one another's lineage or practice, especially on the forums. Shoot, maybe I'm the first offender because of my grappling background and strong opinions regarding keeping it real.

What I am wondering now though, is how can we continue the practice of this phenomenal art and build it together to ensure it does not become lost amongst the 300 person BJJ schools and fight team MMA schools that are flooding the landscape?

Any ideas how we can avoid becoming 90 and sitting around drinking tea b1tch1ng at one another about who has or had the "real" technique? All while schools are failing?

Any ideas on how to less politicize the art?

Any ideas on how to collaborate more together? I mean even Bullshido had the Bullshido gatherings. And they are more critical than all of y'all combined.

I've kind of felt the conversation about Wing Chun has been pretty dead. Around a lot of places. Here. Other forums. In general.

In BJJ the conversation is kind of alive. People travel, meet others they never met, connect quickly, train together, compete together. There are competitions, there is an occasional training partner of mine who started a business that is basically Le Tai grappling competitions around the country. Called FightToWin. Youtube explodes with video. Social media explodes with attention. People are writing BJJ phone apps to see technique on mobile. I've got 3 high quality competition photos from BJJ comps right now today hitting my social media.

This very honestly makes me very very sad.

Wing Chun is a very beautiful close quarter fighting art with rich heritage, culture, philosophy. It also does not contain the "meat head" philosophy and attitude that is very common among mma fighters. It should be appealing to the masses. It should have the culture to sit with kings and the reality to fight with the gate guards. But it doesn't seem to be playing out that way.

Are we stuck in some patterns here? Are we looping poor community behavior?

How to fix people?

I'm not perfect but I'd rather start this conversation than another one about grappling and wing chun or boxing and wing chun or mma and wing chun, even though all those are important too because of our world.

 

[ShortBridge]

In real life, with other actual Wing Chun players (not YouTube experts or people who were anti-Wing Chun to begin with), I generally have good experiences and exchanges. It's the internet where things fall apart.

I feel like maybe 10-15% of the problem is Wing Chun players who are dug into their pai being the "one pure/greatest" and the rest is trolling by people who don't even do Wing Chun, but for some reason have strong conviction about it. Some of them trained through Si Lim Tao and others just read forums, watched YouTube and/or are repeating back what someone else has said.

We can't fix the internet. I've thought of creating a private, closed forum for Wing Chun people to discuss Wing Chun and it might go better, but in the end, this isn't something to be done on-line. I think this forum handles it about as well as it can be.

 

[KPM]

In BJJ the conversation is kind of alive. People travel, meet others they never met, connect quickly, train together, compete together. There are competitions, there is an occasional training partner of mine who started a business that is basically Le Tai grappling competitions around the country. Called FightToWin. Youtube explodes with video. Social media explodes with attention. People are writing BJJ phone apps to see technique on mobile. I've got 3 high quality competition photos from BJJ comps right now today hitting my social media.

.

That's it right there! We discussed this on another thread recently. All the various lineage disputes about who got what right or who missed out on learning X or who has the best "central strategy", etc are really just pure theory when it comes right down to it. What counts is what works. And Wing Chun has no format to show what works. On the other thread we talked about how Wing Chun should be getting more involved in San Da style competitions or holding their own San Da competitions. We've had various "Chi Sau gatherings" (though mainly in Britian) that seem to help, but Chi Sau doesn't prove squat. Chi Sau isn't fighting. But one lineage will certainly develop respect for another if they regularly kick butt in some kind of competitive fighting format that encourages the use of actual Wing Chun technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've thought of creating a private, closed forum for Wing Chun people to discuss Wing Chun and it might go better,...

If you only want to discuss WC principle/technique from the WC point of view, you will limit yourself big time.

In a Judo forum, one Judo guy asked about a throw that you use

- one hand to pull your opponent's arm,
- one hand to press on his knee,
- spin your body and take him down.

After several months of discussion, no Judo guys could explain what throw that is. If you only allow Judo guys to discuss the throwing art, you can only discuss subject in Judo boundary and not beyond.

The following clip (1.30 - 2.20) shows the "hand break" throw that was discussed in that Judo forum.

If non-Judo guys can contribute information in a Judo forum, non-WC guys (or cross training guys) can contribute information in a WC forum as well.

 

[DaveB]

Not a wing chun man, but as someone with an interest and desire to see more constructive discussion I'd say it has to start with getting off line and getting people together to train. Use the net to connect people rather than look down on those who do things differently.

Competition would help a bit in fostering more camaraderie but in being an "art" it will always have those who are "above" such things. Plus the potential for harm to reputation will keep many away.

I think combat sports unite people under a single ideal of excelling on the sport. Traditional martial arts are just too fuzzy to have a single banner to unite under.

 

[Vajramusti]

So I may be in a different place right now because of a positive experience exchanging and practicing with other lineage wing chun practitioners, but my feelings are that when we all join together especially online it trends more towards being critical of one another's lineage or practice, especially on the forums. Shoot, maybe I'm the first offender because of my grappling background and strong opinions regarding keeping it real.

What I am wondering now though, is how can we continue the practice of this phenomenal art and build it together to ensure it does not become lost amongst the 300 person BJJ schools and fight team MMA schools that are flooding the landscape?

Any ideas how we can avoid becoming 90 and sitting around drinking tea b1tch1ng at one another about who has or had the "real" technique? All while schools are failing?

Any ideas on how to less politicize the art?

Any ideas on how to collaborate more together? I mean even Bullshido had the Bullshido gatherings. And they are more critical than all of y'all combined.

I've kind of felt the conversation about Wing Chun has been pretty dead. Around a lot of places. Here. Other forums. In general.

In BJJ the conversation is kind of alive. People travel, meet others they never met, connect quickly, train together, compete together. There are competitions, there is an occasional training partner of mine who started a business that is basically Le Tai grappling competitions around the country. Called FightToWin. Youtube explodes with video. Social media explodes with attention. People are writing BJJ phone apps to see technique on mobile. I've got 3 high quality competition photos from BJJ comps right now today hitting my social media.

This very honestly makes me very very sad.

Wing Chun is a very beautiful close quarter fighting art with rich heritage, culture, philosophy. It also does not contain the "meat head" philosophy and attitude that is very common among mma fighters. It should be appealing to the masses. It should have the culture to sit with kings and the reality to fight with the gate guards. But it doesn't seem to be playing out that way.

Are we stuck in some patterns here? Are we looping poor community behavior?

How to fix people?

I'm not perfect but I'd rather start this conversation than another one about grappling and wing chun or boxing and wing chun or mma and wing chun, even though all those are important too because of our world.

-------------------------------------------------------
A different and possibly minority view;
there are many good Ip Man wing chun
folks in, Macao,Hong Kong,Toronto,Phoenix,
Tempe and Tucson.

 

[KPM]

-------------------------------------------------------
A different and possibly minority view;
there are many good Ip Man wing chun
folks in, Macao,Hong Kong,Toronto,Phoenix,
Tempe and Tucson.

And in Los Angeles, Chicago, Kansas City, Singapore, London, Paris, etc. What's your point?

 

[drop bear]

Bjj and MMA gets what it gets because it collaborates. Wing chun doesn't.

someone can walk in to a BJJ school demolish everyone in the room and they will be grateful for the experience. This is because the more often that person comes in to clean house the better that school gets.

It creates a huge shift in the mentality of the style.

Eg.
Whitsunday Martial Arts

 

[Bino TWT]

We came up with the Houston Wing Chun Symposium, where we got different schools from the area to come together and train. It was a big multi-lineage seminar and every Sifu had an opportunity to teach, and everyone participated.

I personally go to different lineage schools to train with them, and have built a very good relationship with a lot of the Sifu's, instructors, and students in the area.

I also go cross train with other styles, including the BJJ and MMA guys. If you want to get good, especially for the real world, you have to step outside of your kwoon.

Coming from a competitive sport combat background, I train my guys like fighters/athletes and we spar quite a bit. Everything is pressure tested.

These are all things that will hopefully help to bring Wing Tsun to the forefront of the martial arts community, in my area at least.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think combat sports unite people under a single ideal of excelling on the sport. Traditional martial arts are just too fuzzy to have a single banner to unite under.

That's a good point.

If a Karate guy claimed he is better than the other Karate guy in different system, both of them will meet in next Karate tournament to prove who is better. Today, a BJJ guy will never say his ground skill is better than other BJJ guy from a different instructor. They can prove it in the next BJJ tournament as well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

someone can walk in to a BJJ school demolish everyone in the room and they will be grateful for the experience. This is because the more often that person comes in to clean house the better that school gets.

Either BJJ guys may hold higher moral standard that other MA guys have, or the world that you live in is different from the one I live in.

Many years ago, a SC guy demolished everyone in another SC school. That SC school instructor invited this SC guy to his house, served him some tea with glass powder in it. That SC guy had blood came out of his rear end for several months. The MA world can be very ugly, or may be it's just the CMA thing.

 

[drop bear]

Either BJJ guys may hold higher moral standard that other MA guys have, or the world that you live in is different from the one I live in.

Many years ago, a SC guy demolished everyone in another SC school. That SC school instructor invited this SC guy to his house, served him some tea with glass powder in it. That SC guy had blood came out of his rear end for several months. The MA world can be very ugly, or may be it's just CMA thing.

It is a different standard. They consider everyone in BJJ working towards a cause.

 

[DaveB]

That's a good point.

If a Karate guy claimed he is better than the other Karate guy in different system, both of them will meet in next Karate tournament to prove who is better. Today, a BJJ guy will never say his ground skill is better than other BJJ guy from a different instructor. They can prove it in the next BJJ tournament as well.

To be honest I think the same problems occur in karate. The sport side is maybe 50% of the schools, the rest fall into that fuzzy area of martial artists and are just as likely to talk rather than test. To make excuses rather than risk getting beat publicly.

But then I'd rather loose a bjj match than s full contact karate/mma fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But then I'd rather loose a bjj match than s full contact karate/mma fight.

That's the advantage of the grappling art. You can take down (or choke out) your opponent over and over and you don't need to hurt him. The striking art just don't have that kind of luxury.

 

[ShortBridge]

Oh look, a posting specifically about Wing Chun quickly became one about BJJ and MMA and why they are better. Who saw that coming? Oh that's right, me.

 

[Steve]

Oh look, a posting specifically about Wing Chun quickly became one about BJJ and MMA and why they are better. Who saw that coming? Oh that's right, me.

The op is about wing chun, and also BJJ and MMA. When the op introduces the comparison, how can you be surprised by it?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That's it right there! We discussed this on another thread recently. All the various lineage disputes about who got what right or who missed out on learning X or who has the best "central strategy", etc are really just pure theory when it comes right down to it. What counts is what works. And Wing Chun has no format to show what works. On the other thread we talked about how Wing Chun should be getting more involved in San Da style competitions or holding their own San Da competitions. We've had various "Chi Sau gatherings" (though mainly in Britian) that seem to help, but Chi Sau doesn't prove squat. Chi Sau isn't fighting. But one lineage will certainly develop respect for another if they regularly kick butt in some kind of competitive fighting format that encourages the use of actual Wing Chun technique.

I've been training WT for just about a year and a half now on the side. (I have to drive 3 hours round trip, with classes that only intermittently line up with my schedule, so I'm not as far into the art as I would like to be.)

One of the senior students in our training group has been training a lot longer than I have and is about 10 ranks higher than me in the WT system. He's got lots of good technical knowledge and I learn good stuff from him whenever we train together.

We've had some discussions in which he claims that sparring is only good for sport competition and not for street self-defense, which is the purpose of WT. So based on that, I'd say that he doesn't spar. Meanwhile, even with my limited WT experience, I have used WT effectively in sparring with practitioners of Muay Thai, Boxing, MMA, JKD, and Capoeira (including a couple of current or retired pro fighters). The Sihing in question may be technically superior to me in WT, but if we both had to use our skills in a self-defense situation or a real fight I know which of us I would bet on being successful.

WC originally made its reputation in Hong Kong largely through challenge matches . It's strange to see so many WC/WT/VC practitioners refuse sparring on the grounds that the art is too deadly for anything but life-or-death combat.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's strange to see so many WC/WT/VC practitioners refuse sparring on the grounds that the art is too deadly for anything but life-or-death combat.

I have to take issue with this comment, as I believe it is not an accurate representation of the real message or real reasons why someone may not be a fan of sparring.

Rarely does anyone but the truly delusional make the tired old claim that their method is "too deadly" for sparring. The accusation of that claim is itself a tired old claim.

It is true that some things are not appropriate for sparring. Certain things can be of little effect or even no effect at all if they are not done with full intent and full commitment, which would mean that they are then destructive. Destructive things, done with destructive intent, cannot be done in the context of sparring. I hope I don't need to explain that notion further, for anybody here.

These destructive things can be dialed back for use in sparring, but they are then ineffective. As such, it then becomes the responsibility of the sparring partner to acknowledge and honor the technique, when used in a non-destructive way. Maybe that is feasible, maybe it is not. It depends on the sparring partner, and the context and purpose of the sparring.

Grappling methods have a training advantage in this regard. Their methods can be used in a less-than-destructive way, and still be effective. Striking methods are at a training disadvantage in that regard. When they are done in a less-than-destructive way, they are often no longer effective. It becomes easy for the sparring partner to ignore the technique with which they were just hit.

Sparring can still be a useful exercise, but it depends on what someone is hoping to get from it. At the same time, it can undermine some important skills as well. It can train someone to habitually execute their methods in a non-destructive way, undermining the very purpose of the training. So people make an evaluation as to the relative worth. They may develop some skills at the detriment of others, and they may decide that is a worthwhile trade off, that the positives outweigh the negatives. Or they may feel that the trade off is not worth it, that the negatives outweigh the positives. That is a judgement that everyone needs to make for themselves.

But it is a gross oversimplification to say that people claim their stuff is "too deadly" for sparring. It is almost always an issue with much more nuance than that. Ive never actually heard someone make that claim.

 

[KPM]

It is true that some things are not appropriate for sparring. Certain things can be of little effect or even no effect at all if they are not done with full intent and full commitment, which would mean that they are then destructive. Destructive things, done with destructive intent, cannot be done in the context of sparring. I hope I don't need to explain that notion further, for anybody here.

These destructive things can be dialed back for use in sparring, but they are then ineffective. As such, it then becomes the responsibility of the sparring partner to acknowledge and honor the technique, when used in a non-destructive way. Maybe that is feasible, maybe it is not. It depends on the sparring partner, and the context and purpose of the sparring.

.

To some extent, that is a cop out. I don't buy it. Boxing is pretty darn destructive as well if done bare-knuckle, yet they manage to put on gloves and spar realistically and effectively just fine. Your martial art should not be a "weapon of mass destruction". There are plenty of times when defending yourself that you would be in worlds of trouble if you "destroyed" the other person. Drunk Uncle Ed at the New Year's eve party would be one example. A teenager trying to pick your pocket would be another. If your martial art does not allow for "dialing down the setting" to something other than "kill", then maybe you need to look for another martial art ("you in general, not "you" in particular Michael).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have to take issue with this comment, as I believe it is not an accurate representation of the real message or real reasons why someone may not be a fan of sparring.

Rarely does anyone but the truly delusional make the tired old claim that their method is "too deadly" for sparring. The accusation of that claim is itself a tired old claim.

It is true that some things are not appropriate for sparring. Certain things can be of little effect or even no effect at all if they are not done with full intent and full commitment, which would mean that they are then destructive. Destructive things, done with destructive intent, cannot be done in the context of sparring. I hope I don't need to explain that notion further, for anybody here.

These destructive things can be dialed back for use in sparring, but they are then ineffective. As such, it then becomes the responsibility of the sparring partner to acknowledge and honor the technique, when used in a non-destructive way. Maybe that is feasible, maybe it is not. It depends on the sparring partner, and the context and purpose of the sparring.

Grappling methods have a training advantage in this regard. Their methods can be used in a less-than-destructive way, and still be effective. Striking methods are at a training disadvantage in that regard. When they are done in a less-than-destructive way, they are often no longer effective. It becomes easy for the sparring partner to ignore the technique with which they were just hit.

Sparring can still be a useful exercise, but it depends on what someone is hoping to get from it. At the same time, it can undermine some important skills as well. It can train someone to habitually execute their methods in a non-destructive way, undermining the very purpose of the training. So people make an evaluation as to the relative worth. They may develop some skills at the detriment of others, and they may decide that is a worthwhile trade off, that the positives outweigh the negatives. Or they may feel that the trade off is not worth it, that the negatives outweigh the positives. That is a judgement that everyone needs to make for themselves.

But it is a gross oversimplification to say that people claim their stuff is "too deadly" for sparring. It is almost always an issue with much more nuance than that. Ive never actually heard someone make that claim.

I actually agree with a lot of that. Every training method has its weaknesses, including each of the many forms of sparring. Personally I think the best approach is to find complementary training methods so that the strengths of one can balance out the weaknesses of another. I respect many martial artists who reject sparring entirely, but I disagree with them.

You are right that grappling methods, in general, allow you to spar safely with more intensity than striking methods. (With some exceptions. For example, there are throwing methods that can inflict plenty of damage if you apply with full damaging intent every time.) I disagree that the choices for most strikes are limited to "hit hard enough to inflict real injury" vs "hit so light that your sparring partner can just ignore the shot." There is a huge range of gradations of force possible which allow the recipient of a blow to respect the impact without being seriously damaged.

As far as the "too deadly to spar" argument, I do see it periodically, although not always phrased in that exact way.

Here's a quote from our own Mook Jong Man. He doesn't dismiss all sparring, but he does explicitly say that full-contact sparring in WC is impossible because the participants would end up dead or in the hospital:

Full contact Wing Chun is a fallacy anyway , if I am using full contact I will be moving in with my full body mass.
If I do a double palm strike to your head , you will either die or you will be going to hospital with a broken neck.

You can put helmets and gear on , and have contact , but it won't be full contact , it will be semi contact or people will be going to the hospital.
Because of the way Wing Chun punches are delivered with the elbow down and going up at an angle to the jaw , forget about the trauma to the brain they put a lot of stress on the neck.
I can definitely feel the stress in my neck when I've been hit with half power ones while wearing a helmet , so there is no way I want to be hit by a full powered one by someone who knows what they are doing.