I was wondering of Japanese swordsmen ever did wield two katanas. By katana I mean the long sword that the Samurai were often portrayed with as its been mentioned here that katana can sometimes be used as a generic term for any type of Japanese sword. Anyway, considering the size of the katana it looks like it would usually require two hands to use it effectively so to use two at the same time, I was wondering if that's just in Hollywood.
Wielding two Katanas
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
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That's katana and wakizashi.-the long one is a katana, the shorter is wakizashi.
However, Musashi likely used two bokken at times, if the legends are to be believed, and a proponent of a style that uses the katana single-handed could likely use one in place of the wakizashi as well......
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Japanese swords are two handed weapons, though there are some kata where one handed cuts and thrusts are used. They are also a right handed weapon, there are no left handed kata.
Niten is fun, but you have various kata to work with, some are katana only, some wakizashi only and some are paired up together.
Don't forget Musashi would do anything to win a fight, any weapon or tactic was acceptable, and he was over 6 feet tall in a land of people 5'3".....
Personally, I think a shorter blade, combined with a shield would work well for me!
Niten is fun, but you have various kata to work with, some are katana only, some wakizashi only and some are paired up together.
Don't forget Musashi would do anything to win a fight, any weapon or tactic was acceptable, and he was over 6 feet tall in a land of people 5'3".....
Personally, I think a shorter blade, combined with a shield would work well for me!
Jameswhelan
Yellow Belt
Actually, there are a number of koryu schools that have kata using both long and short swords. It's the Japanese equivalent of sword and shield fighting.However, I've never heard of any classical schools that use two long swords.
If Daito ryu counts as classical, it has.
h C p
The first kenpo kata in Kukishin ryu is Hidarekatate Nagi and does what it says on the tin.
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Jameswhelan
Yellow Belt
-double post
I've never seen a left handed kata, I've never heard of a left handed kata from a traditional JSA school.
Love to see it, I can't find a video anywhere, have you got a link??
Love to see it, I can't find a video anywhere, have you got a link??
pgsmith
Master of Arts
There's a large bucket of worms that I've no desire to dive into.
That's another bucket of worms with lots of potential arguments. (much bigger than just can of worms).
Jameswhelan
Yellow Belt
Colin?!
How have you been?
How have you been?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Wellā¦ I think it's pretty likely that some samurai, somewhere, at some point found themselves with a long sword in each handā¦ whether they started that way, or one sword was taken from an opponent is another questionā¦ of course, if the question is if there are any formalised methods in known ryu-ha that feature the usage of two daito (one in each hand), that's something that is almost unheard ofā¦ James has put up the only one I'd heard of.
That said, the use of a daito with a single hand, well, that's fairly commonā¦ most Iai systems feature single-hand cuts on the draw at leastā¦ many systems have single hand cut or thrust methodsā¦ and really, the sword isn't that heavy. Yes, you do get better cutting mechanics with two hands working in unison, but that's more to do with them both doing part of the work than with them being needed to handle the weight.
Well, that's the easy oneā¦ ha!
Not quite, noā¦ wakizashi (inserted at the side) is more a way of wearing the shorter weapon, rather than the strict categorisation itself. As Hyoho mentioned, terms commonly used are tachi and kodachiā¦ or daito and shotoā¦ or daito and kodachi. As a friend of mine once said, if it's not wakizashi, it's not a wakizashiā¦
As for "katana", that's just a word that means "sword"ā¦ it's often applied to a daito, sureā¦ but it's origins (in usage) was as the shorter companion sword to a tachiā¦ which was called an "uchigatana" (striking sword).
Yeahā¦ legends areā¦ not so trustworthyā¦
Yep!
Erā¦ hold that thought, mateā¦
Ha! Cool.
Hmmā¦ "Niten" kata? Really? Which?
Actually, there are a number of koryu schools that have kata using both long and short swords. It's the Japanese equivalent of sword and shield fighting.
Koryu using two swords include the aforementioned Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (as well as other lines, obviously), Nito Shinkage Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu (who also have methods using two short swordsā¦ nito kodachi waza), Shingyoto Ryu, Enmei Ryu, Araki Ryu, Kashima Shinto Ryu, and Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (who use the term "Ryoto")ā¦ and this isn't an exhaustive list.
Nice find! Have you ever seen any video of the waza? I've only ever seen photos and occasional mention of the nito kenjutsu as part of a much higher (and rarely taught) collection of techniques from Takeda Sokaku (separate to the Ono-ha Itto Ryu that's commonly found as part of the Daito Ryu syllabus in a number of lines).
Wellā¦ to be fair, that's a kata that releases the right hand in order to perform a single hand (left handed) cut, rather than a left handed kata itself, which might be what Ken was referring toā¦
For the record, of course, Kukishin Ryu isn't alone there eitherā¦ Yagyu Shinkage Ryu have a similar method, seen here at about 6:20:
Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Go to a bit after 3 minutes, and watch the hands of the gent in the red yoroiā¦.
I haven't found a clip (I have a video here, but not online)ā¦ but Yagyu Shinkage Ryu have two kamae that feature a left hand on top, known as Hidari Tachi (å·¦å¤Ŗå), a kind of off-set jodan, and Shiteki Sei (å·ē¬č£½), where the tachi is held horizontally across the forehead, with the kissaki pointing to the left, and your left hand on top (held like a fluteā¦). These kamae turn up in the later methods of Shinkage Ryu, as well as one where the left hand is near the tsuba, and the right hand forms a soete function on the mune.
Araki Ryu Gunyo Kogusokuā¦ a bit of a different one. Check out the waza starting at about 3:20ishā¦ the daito is held in the left hand while the right is used to draw the kodachi, making it a kinda "reverse" on the standard nito formā¦
There's a large bucket of worms that I've no desire to dive into.
Ha!
For the record, the Kukishin Ryu that James is referring to is not the Kukishin Ryu of the Bujinkan fameā¦
And, obviously Hyoho is far more aware of this than others, but the Nito Seiho is actually the smallest section of the three primary kenjutsu sections of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryuā¦ the Tachi Seiho has 12 waza, the Kodachi has 7, and the Nito only has 5. And, of course, as mentioned other systems have nito sections/teachings as well...
Steve
Mostly Harmless
"Obsessed" is a bit too strong, don't you think? Ignorant, maybe.
Jameswhelan
Yellow Belt
That's not correct.
pgsmith
Master of Arts
That's not helpful.
That's not funny.....okay, it was a little funny.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Really? Can you elaborate on that?
The reason I ask is, well, that's exactly what it looks like. Uchidachi approaches in seigan, shidachi pushes forward in seigan, forcing uchidachi back into jodanā¦ so far, everyone is right hand dominant (orthodox grip, if you will), using two hands. Uchidachi strikes down, and shidachi deflects upwards (still right handed), then releases the right hand to strike around to the side of the body with a single hand (left-handed) strikeā¦ but, even then, it's not left hand-dominant, as the hand is exactly where it would be (at the kashira) when holding with both handsā¦ while slightly retreating.
Uchidachi backs up into Tenchijin while shidachi adopts what looks like a gyaku sutemi no kamae. Both swordsman have adopted a two-handed, right hand dominant grip again. Uchidachi strikes down, shidachi evades to the right with nagasu, and cuts to the neck from the side. All of this is also done with both hands, right dominant. Both partners move back to finish the kata.
Can you explain how that is not "a kata that releases the right hand in order to perform a single hand (left-handed) cut, rather than a left handed kata itself"?
By contrast, I mentioned Yagyu Shinkage Ryu's Hidari Tachi no Kamae and Shiteki Sei, both of which are kamae that feature the left hand on top, right at the kashira, making them definitively "left handed", which are kamae that feature in a couple of their kata at a higher level (the Oku no Tachi), for both uchidachi and shidachi. I also mentioned the Yagyu Shingan methods and provided a video above. These methods do feature a true "left handed" approach, which I believe is what Ken was saying he hadn't seenā¦ and is not the same as the Kukishin kata you brought up.
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