Why you should not interfere with a LEO

[Kittan Bachika]

First of all the woman is at fault for interfering with LEO doing his job.
Are LEOs allowed to use strikes? Whenever I watch COPS and see them take someone down, the LEOs do not trade punches. Instead they restrain them in some way.

Angle 1
http://youtu.be/0Pw-bEwEUvI


Angle 2 with Boba Fett
http://youtu.be/9shJZCnPr9s

 

[Twin Fist]

hit a cop, you are gonna get hit back

 

[David43515]

hit a cop, you are gonna get hit back

As you should be.There are lines you just don`t cross, and that`s one of them.

I`ve never been a cop and never will be, but as a boy I was raised to trust them and to treat them with respect for the difficult and sometimes dangerous work they do. As an adult I trained with a few cops and got to know they were just ordinary guys and sometimes they made mistakes. Heck, some of them could be down right (insert favorite swear word here). But anybody who would swing at a cop on duty is dangerous.
They`re showing they`re willing to fight anybody who gets in their way, and we can`t tell by looking just how far they`re willing to go. Every time a cop interacts with a member of the public there is at least one gun present, the cop`s. If somebody swings at a cop once, you don`t know how often they`re going to swing while they can. And you don`t know if they`re gonna stop with knocking somebody sensless. The idea of a cop getting shot with his own gun is only slightly less horrible than that gun being used later to kill someone else.

It would never happen but, if my lovely wife or one of my beautiful daughters took a swing at a cop I`d be upset if they came home with a fat lip or a broken nose......but I`d be very happy that the officer was able to end it with a closed fist or an elbow rather than his sidearm. If one of my nephews ever tried to lay his hands on a cop, they`d better hope they stay in jail until I cool down because I`ll make a special trip back to the states and give them a new set of bruises on top of whatever the cops might give them. That **** just doesn`t fly.

 

[Rayban]

Police or not, everyone has the right to defend themselves. The argument only becomes blurry when the question of "severity" or "reasonable force" comes into play. I'd submit that a punch back to counter a punch (training aside) is perfectly fine, as is pins and take downs to stop the immediate threat.

Police are a bit of a special case though. Their job is to walk into an already dangerous situation and defuse it. It's never really a black and white, "he decided to hit me, so I'll hit him back". There may be drugs or alcohol involved which makes them more dangerous, not only to everyone around them, but themselves.

If I hit a cop, or anyone else for that matter, I would fully expect a warranted reaction. This is why when training self defense techniques you mimic real world situations, adrenalin and body mechanics.

 

[Josh Oakley]

It's a tough call. I'd have to see the incident precipitating the cops involvement in the first place. It seemed like the cop escalated the incident. The cop seems to be the first person to strike as well. BUT, I wasn't there, so it's hard to say who's at fault.

The biggest problem with this film is it begins when there's already action going on. So giving an unbiased opinion is almost impossible to do.

What I can say is this guy is probably going to face a reprimand, whether or not his actions were right. Because now it's on video.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

hit a cop, you are gonna get hit back

No doubt about that. But what I want to know is that are they allowed to use strikes while on the job?

 

[WC_lun]

For the LEOs I know, strikes aren't neccesarily prohibited, but they aren't the first choice. The ultimate goal is to safely control a perp. Striking does not really lend itself to the safely part. However, it would be niave to think that some perp swinging on an LEO isn't going to recieve a few reminders of why that just isn't a good idea. It is also much harder for a perp to get money from suing the LEO if he was controlled by a good lock that left minimal marks than if the perp looks like he's been in a car wreck. Even someone who is a real bad guy will garner some sympathy from jurist if his melon is bruised and swollen.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No doubt about that. But what I want to know is that are they allowed to use strikes while on the job?

Yes.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Old joke: in the lockup, how do you tell which guys resisted apprehension? They walk with a limp.

 

[punisher73]

No doubt about that. But what I want to know is that are they allowed to use strikes while on the job?

Yes, most agencies use what is called a +1 level of force. This means that you are able to use one level of force HIGHER than what the suspect is using. So, if you take a swing at a cop, he is justified in blasting you with his baton because that is the plus one.

In the case of active agression where a person punches at a cop and they only respond with a punch back, they are only using equal force and are justified in their force (barring exigent circumstances).

Most cops use too LITTLE force and then it ends up going longer and someone gets hurt and it looks worse dragging the struggle out. Your job is to gain control of the subject as quickly as possible using the appropriate amount of force for that circumstance. Know you tactics and procedures and practice them and do what you are authorized to do, using force is NOT the time to worry about civil liability if you know that you are in the right. Too many cops under use force because they are afraid of getting sued etc.

 

[clfsean]

That happened in town. I know the IHOP it happened in.

She got what she deserved for interfering in the first place. She could've gotten worse. A right cross you get over pretty quick. Taking a ride of 50k volts leaves a lasting impression.

 

[Archangel M]

It goes to show you how handcuffing ANYONE is not the same as "fighting". I often hear the "why did it take so many people to handcuff such a poor small woman??" "Why did they have to Taze a poor 16 yo girl? Couldnt they have used joint locks or something??"

Try it sometime and get back to me.

 

[WC_lun]

It goes to show you how handcuffing ANYONE is not the same as "fighting". I often hear the "why did it take so many people to handcuff such a poor small woman??" "Why did they have to Taze a poor 16 yo girl? Couldnt they have used joint locks or something??"

Try it sometime and get back to me.

yeah, cuffing someone who does not want to be cuffed is hard work. Anyone who hasn't experienced it should try it in your school sometime. It is eye opening. i think a lot of people would gain a new understanding and respect of LEOs jobs and use of force.

 

[Archangel M]

Now imagine woking back in the day when you had to use cuffs like these:

Thats when you had to use a club or sap to KO your resisting subject just to get the cuffs on.

 

[jks9199]

Yes, most agencies use what is called a +1 level of force. This means that you are able to use one level of force HIGHER than what the suspect is using. So, if you take a swing at a cop, he is justified in blasting you with his baton because that is the plus one.

In the case of active agression where a person punches at a cop and they only respond with a punch back, they are only using equal force and are justified in their force (barring exigent circumstances).

Most cops use too LITTLE force and then it ends up going longer and someone gets hurt and it looks worse dragging the struggle out. Your job is to gain control of the subject as quickly as possible using the appropriate amount of force for that circumstance. Know you tactics and procedures and practice them and do what you are authorized to do, using force is NOT the time to worry about civil liability if you know that you are in the right. Too many cops under use force because they are afraid of getting sued etc.

Too many cops today are way too scared to use sufficient force early enough; they've had too many hours of liability training taught by people who don't seem to understand that prolonging a fight increases the chances and likely severity of injuries. Like I told one kid last night (he was warning me that he wasn't going to fight me...) -- I'll win, and it'll be quick, messy, and painful.

Cops are permitted to use strikes -- but strikes are often at odds with the end goal of police combatives, namely a subdued, cuffed person. Strikes also carry a higher risk of injury to the cop with a lesser likelihood of advancing towards that control goal. That said -- I'll use strikes to open up options for other controls.

That happened in town. I know the IHOP it happened in.

She got what she deserved for interfering in the first place. She could've gotten worse. A right cross you get over pretty quick. Taking a ride of 50k volts leaves a lasting impression.

Actually, the hit from a Taser is over after 5 seconds, and most people can get right up. Maybe a little wobbly like right after you get off of a roller coaster. All things being equal -- I'll ride the lightning any day over a right cross or even pepper spray.

It goes to show you how handcuffing ANYONE is not the same as "fighting". I often hear the "why did it take so many people to handcuff such a poor small woman??" "Why did they have to Taze a poor 16 yo girl? Couldnt they have used joint locks or something??"

Try it sometime and get back to me.

That's what so many people who question use of force don't get. Real fighting is ugly. There's no two ways about it. People are conditioned by TV and movies that fights'll be pretty, Walker pulls out his patented spinning hook kick, and the bad guy goes down without serious injury, etc. It just ain't that way in the real world -- anymore than a sparring match looks like someone doing a form on someone. When you add concerns about liability and not doing unnecessary injury, it just gets harder and uglier.

 

[clfsean]

Actually, the hit from a Taser is over after 5 seconds, and most people can get right up. Maybe a little wobbly like right after you get off of a roller coaster. All things being equal -- I'll ride the lightning any day over a right cross or even pepper spray.

I was talking more mental than physical in that respect. I've seen plenty of examples of exactly what're your talking about. But for the average everyday Joe, they mental aspect of 'oh damn' after a ride.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

For the LEOs I know, strikes aren't neccesarily prohibited, but they aren't the first choice. The ultimate goal is to safely control a perp. Striking does not really lend itself to the safely part. However, it would be niave to think that some perp swinging on an LEO isn't going to recieve a few reminders of why that just isn't a good idea. It is also much harder for a perp to get money from suing the LEO if he was controlled by a good lock that left minimal marks than if the perp looks like he's been in a car wreck. Even someone who is a real bad guy will garner some sympathy from jurist if his melon is bruised and swollen.

You are right about hitting the face. Unfortunately there are certain situations where LEOs can't avoid doing it.

Too many cops today are way too scared to use sufficient force early enough; they've had too many hours of liability training taught by people who don't seem to understand that prolonging a fight increases the chances and likely severity of injuries. Like I told one kid last night (he was warning me that he wasn't going to fight me...) -- I'll win, and it'll be quick, messy, and painful.

Cops are permitted to use strikes -- but strikes are often at odds with the end goal of police combatives, namely a subdued, cuffed person. Strikes also carry a higher risk of injury to the cop with a lesser likelihood of advancing towards that control goal. That said -- I'll use strikes to open up options for other controls.



Actually, the hit from a Taser is over after 5 seconds, and most people can get right up. Maybe a little wobbly like right after you get off of a roller coaster. All things being equal -- I'll ride the lightning any day over a right cross or even pepper spray.



That's what so many people who question use of force don't get. Real fighting is ugly. There's no two ways about it. People are conditioned by TV and movies that fights'll be pretty, Walker pulls out his patented spinning hook kick, and the bad guy goes down without serious injury, etc. It just ain't that way in the real world -- anymore than a sparring match looks like someone doing a form on someone. When you add concerns about liability and not doing unnecessary injury, it just gets harder and uglier.

Now that I think about it, there was an episode of COPS where officer had to use baton strikes to get a criminal under control. But he targeted areas that were not lethal and it wasn't the first thing he did, he tried using all types of restraint. And more importantly, he did not hit him in the face.

That's always a problem with Film and TV. People think that Steve Seagal can beat the crap out of an army dudes when in real life he got himself choked out by Gene Lebell.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Think about it, if they're allowed to shoot them, why wouldn't they be allowed to punch?
Obviously there has to be sufficient force being used by the perp, like punching first to justify it. But it is allowed, I don't know that this woman, (and I use the term very loosely) struck first, but she was grabbing the cop and obstructing justice which allows for the cops to arrest her, not sure the punches were warranted but I wasn't there and didn't see the whole situation so I'm not in a position to respond.

 

[chinto]

well lets see, interference with a police officer in performance of his duty, assualting a public safety/ police officer ( same crime in my state.. EMT etc are public safety officers ), resisting arrest... disturbing the peace if they want to be harsh to pile on... yep not a good IDEA!

I do not know of any state in the USA that you have a legal right to resist a police officer.... so even if needed you will be charged I am sure with assaulting an officer and resisting arrest.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

what a chaotic scene..
that chick is lucky she only got one punch then taken down and cuffed...
although I like how the original lady that was going to get arrested used the distraction to get the hell out of dodge... I wonder if she actually got away too?