Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

[Sammy Naur]

Fully agree. How would the previous post Not consider the effect of increased friction and change in relative gravity when in the water. The 'freedom' felt when kicking out of the water should be exponentially faster.

That's kind of what I meant.

It's like the difference between beach volleyball and standard volleyball

Beach is harder. And those people will blow away anybody on an actual court

 

[Badhabits]

Yes, you did.

No. No I did not. Read my posts again.

 

[Sammy Naur]

No. No I did not. Read my posts again.

No, that's not my job.

And quite frankly I'm still waiting for some sort of evidence that anything you said is true, about training in water mentally conditioning you to be slow.

This whole line of reasoning, about training in water making people slower, is absurd, which is why I brought up surfing as a great example of how people who train in water sports tend to become very fit, physically athletic, and if they chose to, excel in martial arts.

Hence the topic "

Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts"​

 

[Badhabits]

No, that's not my job.

And quite frankly I'm still waiting for some sort of evidence that anything you said is true, about training in water mentally conditioning you to be slow.

This whole line of reasoning, about training in water making people slower, is absurd, which is why I brought up surfing as a great example of how people who train in water sports tend to become very fit, physically athletic, and if they chose to, excel in martial arts.

Hence the topic "

Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts"​

Once again, since you don't care to re read the posts you obviously somehow misunderstood. Someone else said that training in water makes you slow. Not me. I debated against that idea. The concession I gave, was that yes, it is possible for someone to unintentionally build a habit of being slow. That would be a mental thing, not physical. I never anywhere said that training in water makes you slow due to physicalities. If you can't even go back and re read the posts I made so that you can properly understand what you're arguing I'm done. I'm out.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Once again, since you don't care to re read the posts you obviously somehow misunderstood. Someone else said that training in water makes you slow. Not me. I debated against that idea. The concession I gave, was that yes, it is possible for someone to unintentionally build a habit of being slow. That would be a mental thing, not physical. I never anywhere said that training in water makes you slow due to physicalities. If you can't even go back and re read the posts I made so that you can properly understand what you're arguing I'm done. I'm out.

So now I have to "re read" your posts, even though I already read and disagreed once already.

It's pretty simple, you made some claims to couldn't back up. I specifically asked you to, and rather than try, you're backpedaling regarding the whole "brain conditioning" thing you threw out.

Ill say it again, there is no "mental thing", that's something to just threw out on a whim.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

There is data to suggest that swinging a weighted bat does not make your swing in baseball any faster and may even hinder performance:

Weighted Bats DO NOT Increase Bat Speed - Hitting with Torque

Weighted bats do not increase bat speed. Baseball and softball hitters should save their money and focus instead on sound hitting fundamentals.

torque-hitting.com

It's easy to extrapolate from that to punching in water or with weights. It feels faster, but it isn't. That said, I punch in water whenever I go swimming- and I've just come back from the river- not because I think it will make my punches harder or faster, but because it's cool.

 

[Sammy Naur]

There is data to suggest that swinging a weighted bat does not make your swing in baseball any faster and may even hinder performance:

Weighted Bats DO NOT Increase Bat Speed - Hitting with Torque

Weighted bats do not increase bat speed. Baseball and softball hitters should save their money and focus instead on sound hitting fundamentals.

torque-hitting.com

It's easy to extrapolate from that to punching in water or with weights. It feels faster, but it isn't. That said, I punch in water whenever I go swimming- and I've just come back from the river- not because I think it will make my punches harder or faster, but because it's cool.

This does not support the suggestion at all, that weight conditions the mind to make people slower.

And for you to say "It's easy to extrapolate from that". Why do you feel it's easy to extrapolate?

What does swinging a weighted bat, have to do with this thread topic?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

This does not support the suggestion at all, that weight conditions the mind to make people slower.

And for you to say "It's easy to extrapolate from that". Why do you feel it's easy to extrapolate?

What does swinging a weighted bat, have to do with this thread topic?

The fact that it's perfectly fair to compare two motions where weight is added?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I think you're being obtuse, frankly. Two fast movements? With added weight?

 

[Darren]

think it depends on the person! you get someone with determination and a strong will that just don`t give up, it may take them awhile but one day.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There is a lot you're claiming here that still doesn't match with either physics or neurology. I'm not trying to berate you, but just point out the fallacies.

"doing a specific technique in the water will make that technique slower because you get used to throwing it slower".

According to who? Not according to weight resistance training of any type in exercise science that I'm aware of. Training against resistance never makes you slower. In fact, one look at surfers should show you training in water makes them not only stronger, but faster than most "martial arts" types.

", if you practice a front kick in the water you will be throwing it at a slower speed because of water resistance and as such your brain will become programmed to throw it at that slower speed even when you're not throwing"

It will be at a marginally slower speed because of resistance in the water, but that has no bearing on when you're out of the water. Not to mention, anybody training front kicks in the water, are probably also training them outside of it.

What's your source for this "brain programming" thing? That just sounds like more of an unsupported opinion. I'd like to see some actual evidence.

Like I've said a few times, the whole "training with resistance/weights makes you slower" trope, which also conflicts with mainstream exercise science, appears to come from a lot of literally weak martial artists who think they're fast.

It was a study done in the sports department of Princeton University sometime in the late 90s, that's where I read about the brain programming and about how practicing techniques while using weights will make you slower. I no longer have the article but I suppose you could contact the university and ask them about it.

 

[Sammy Naur]

It was a study done in the sports department of Princeton University sometime in the late 90s, that's where I read about the brain programming and about how practicing techniques while using weights will make you slower. I no longer have the article but I suppose you could contact the university and ask them about it.

Training with weights does not make you slower, and referencing a single 30 year old study that nobody can find probably indicates what modern exercise science already tells us.

Training with weights, or in water, does not reprogram your brain at all, unless your martial arts training is bad (which is probably the case for most people who don't train realistically.

Watch this video, and try to defend the idea that "leg day" makes people slower. It's an argument from absurdity. We don't need to track down some old study from the late 90's, but if we did and you tried showing it to a fight coach, they'd probably think you were trolling them.

Pay special attention to that part at about 1:00 in when he says about "isolate and do it slow". This is one of the best coaches on the planet, blowing apart the notion that training against water, in water, or with resistance, including body weight, does anything negative. If anything, doing these things makes you faster, stronger, and more powerful.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

It's difficult to argue with somebody who refuses to engage with the claim that's actually being made. Nobody is saying that resistance training makes you slower. We covered that one sometime around 1995, if not before. What's being said is that replicating the same exact explosive movement with added weight will. Even writers on T-nation, a website hardly hostile to resistance training, have said repeatedly that swinging a weighted bat, for instance, is the worst thing you can do for an explosive, skilled movement like a punch or a kick.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It's difficult to argue with somebody who refuses to engage with the claim that's actually being made. Nobody is saying that resistance training makes you slower. We covered that one sometime around 1995, if not before. What's being said is that replicating the same exact explosive movement with added weight will.

Thank you for making clear what I've been trying to say.

Even writers on T-nation, a website hardly hostile to resistance training, have said repeatedly that swinging a weighted bat, for instance, is the worst thing you can do for an explosive, skilled movement like a punch or a kick.

And yet, baseball players still do it.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

And yet, baseball players still do it.

Oh, athletes do all sorts of things that don't actually help them. Ice baths, kinesiology tape, kettlebells...

 

[HighKick]

Training with weights does not make you slower, and referencing a single 30 year old study that nobody can find probably indicates what modern exercise science already tells us.

Training with weights, or in water, does not reprogram your brain at all, unless your martial arts training is bad (which is probably the case for most people who don't train realistically.

Watch this video, and try to defend the idea that "leg day" makes people slower. It's an argument from absurdity. We don't need to track down some old study from the late 90's, but if we did and you tried showing it to a fight coach, they'd probably think you were trolling them.

Pay special attention to that part at about 1:00 in when he says about "isolate and do it slow". This is one of the best coaches on the planet, blowing apart the notion that training against water, in water, or with resistance, including body weight, does anything negative. If anything, doing these things makes you faster, stronger, and more powerful.

When people talk about weight training making you slower, they are usually talking about the body builder that has great muscle mass but little to no useability. Super bulked up but not mobile.
This kind of weight training will Definitely slow you down.
Conversely, weight training to 'train' muscles for speed and twitch is Completely different.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

In fact, if I had £2.50 for every time an athlete bought something that had no effect whatsoever on their performance, I'd be selling pretty cheap supplements

 

[Prince_Alarming]

When people talk about weight training making you slower, they are usually talking about the body builder that has great muscle mass but little to no useability. Super bulked up but not mobile.
This kind of weight training will Definitely slow you down.
Conversely, weight training to 'train' muscles for speed and twitch is Completely different.

To be fair, bodybuilders are nothing like as bad athletes as certain people would have you believe. There are plenty of people with a great deal of muscle mass who are also very flexible. The way I see it, unless you actually can outlift them, you don't get to make fun of them.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Its like me i'm not good at sports but im good at martial arts some people who do sports they don't do martial and they don't know it its not their passion to do martial arts and their playing their sports that they love and do

 

[HighKick]

To be fair, bodybuilders are nothing like as bad athletes as certain people would have you believe. There are plenty of people with a great deal of muscle mass who are also very flexible. The way I see it, unless you actually can outlift them, you don't get to make fun of them.

Who is making fun of them? I inferred nothing other than the fact that mass (of any kind) typically makes things slower. Slower may mean only initially or at max velocity or somewhere in between.
Think of it this way, it is typically harder to get a very large ball rolling.