Why Taekwondo sucks at punching

[skribs]

My apologies for the click-bait title. I know Taekwondo has a rich variety of punches in it, and typically will train defenses against the punch. However, the World Taekwondo sparring rules severely limit what you can do with a punch, which means you don't see a whole lot of punches in sparring. I made this thread in the boxing forum to look at training boxing to supplement this lack of punching in sparring, and people asked why punches don't seem to be used much, and why they don't score points. My answer got a lot of positive responses, so I thought I'd repost it here.

In this thread, I'm going to look at WT sparring tournaments I've been to, how punching works with the legacy "gameboy" system (if someone can give me the technical term for this system) and with the Daedo system, and then how and why you WOULD want to punch.

First off - in WT sparring, there are no punches to the head. I think part of this is to reduce the amount of head trauma suffered, but in general the idea is that it's easy to punch someone in the head, so it's not worth doing. It's difficult to kick someone in the head (especially someone who is trained in defending kicks to the head), so that is where the game comes into play.

So you can't punch to the head, which eliminates most of the punches you'd want to throw, especially considering the target has a thick pad over the areas you can punch. Now, it's possible to score with a punch, but very difficult. Let's look at the two different scoring systems and see how punches score there:

Legacy System
If you're using a legacy system where the judges have to notice the hits, then any time they see the foot contact the pad they're supposed to score it. A basic roundhouse or snap side kick (not a pushing side kick) is 1 or 2 points, a back kick or tornado kick is 2 or 3 points, a headshot is 3 points, and a turning headshot is 4 points. (Sometime's it's 1 and 2 for roundhouse kick and back kick, sometimes 1 and 3, sometimes 2 and 3, depending on the rules at the time).

So any kick that will hit the target is scored. But a punch has to have an actual effect. The punch has to knock the person back, knock them down, or visibly disrupt them enough to warrant a point. So while, in general, I can play tag with my feet and score tons of points, if I want to use a punch, I have to make it count, or it doesn't count.

I have to cause more disruption with a punch than I would with a kick in order to score, and punches are generally weaker than kicks. What's more, is that disruption will typically knock them out of range of your next punch. While I can score multiple points with repeated roundhouse kicks, double roundhouse kicks, or other kick combinations, because a punch must have a staggering effect, I eliminate the ability to do a combination.

And, in tournaments where a roundhouse is scored 2 points and a turning kick is 3 points, a punch is still only 1 point. So if I land two roundhouses and a back kick in combo, I might come away with 7 points. If I land a scoring punch, I get...1 point. If they even score it.

Daedo System
Using the electronic scoring system, there are sensors in the chestguard and headguard that record hits from more sensors on your instep and heel. (This is why ball-of-the-foot kicks aren't trained as much anymore in KKW TKD). There are no sensors in your hands. I'm not sure if you can even score on a punch with Daedo, but if you do it is a judge's call, and not a sensor hit.

So if you're making contact with your feet, it's up to the impartial sensor. If you make contact with your hands, it can be up to the judge, and again - it has to be a staggering blow. And like with the above, that comes with several drawbacks.

---

Now, this isn't to say that punches aren't useful. Punches have several uses:

• A good punch to the solar plexus can knock the wind out of a fighter and give you an advantage for the next several seconds.
• Punches are good distancing techniques to knock them out of ax kick range or to set up your own kicks.
• Punches are really useful against smaller fighters up close when you can't use your feet, to push them back into your range or to disrupt their kicks.
• Punches can also draw your opponents focus away from your feet, which might give you a better chance of scoring with a kick.
• It uses less energy to punch than it does to push kick. So if you need to conserve energy, it can be a good tactic.
• Throwing combinations that string punches and kicks together can be harder for opponents to keep up with.

So, punches aren't useless. But when you can score 2-3 points per kick and kicks score more often than punches, they don't really get used. When you can combo kicks better than punches, it makes more sense to use kicks.

Connecting back to the thread title...this is why other arts typically look at Taekwondo as a kicking-specialized art. If I look at my school as an example, we practice punches in our forms. We drill punch defense against a single punch. But then we spar with WT rules and we can't realistically punch in that scenario. It's not that Taekwondo doesn't have the techniques for it, it's simply that we can't use them in sparring.

 

[JR 137]

You can use them in sparring, and use them effectively. Instead of competition style sparring, how about just good old sparring where you’re not keeping score?

My organization has an annual tournament, and it’s point-fighting rules. That doesn’t mean we have to always spar to those rules. We rarely spar that way in class. If and when we do, it’s either a specially scheduled class where whoever is competing attends, or it’s in a general class and the instructor decides to do that to change things up from the norm.

Just because a school competes doesn’t mean everything they do has to always follow competition rules. If the only sparring my school did was tournament rules sparring, I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 ft pole. I don’t mind tournament sparring, but the few weeks a year where I do it (and it’s certainly not every class during that period) is more than enough for me.

I was around a few TKD guys in college. They were pretty good with their hands. Why? The focus of their school wasn’t tournament fighting. They competed, but competition wasn’t what drove their instruction. Seems like that’s the exception rather than the norm. TKD around me is almost solely competition driven. I think that does a disservice to the art. Everything’s got its place, but when you only see one way, you start thinking that’s all there is. A shame IMO.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

My understanding is that further to the other restrictions in scoring that you mention, only a rear hand punch can score. So even if you have the powerful front hand punch like Bruce lee, and it moves the person, it's not a "proper" punch and won't be scored.

 

[skribs]

You can use them in sparring, and use them effectively. Instead of competition style sparring, how about just good old sparring where you’re not keeping score?

My organization has an annual tournament, and it’s point-fighting rules. That doesn’t mean we have to always spar to those rules. We rarely spar that way in class. If and when we do, it’s either a specially scheduled class where whoever is competing attends, or it’s in a general class and the instructor decides to do that to change things up from the norm.

Just because a school competes doesn’t mean everything they do has to always follow competition rules. If the only sparring my school did was tournament rules sparring, I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 ft pole. I don’t mind tournament sparring, but the few weeks a year where I do it (and it’s certainly not every class during that period) is more than enough for me.

I was around a few TKD guys in college. They were pretty good with their hands. Why? The focus of their school wasn’t tournament fighting. They competed, but competition wasn’t what drove their instruction. Seems like that’s the exception rather than the norm. TKD around me is almost solely competition driven. I think that does a disservice to the art. Everything’s got its place, but when you only see one way, you start thinking that’s all there is. A shame IMO.

Unfortunately I don't get to choose the type of sparring we do every day.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Unfortunately I don't get to choose the type of sparring we do every day.

Aren't you one of the instructors there? Have you talked with the head instructor to see if you would be able to do non-point sparring once or twice a month, on days where you're teaching?

 

[dvcochran]

My understanding is that further to the other restrictions in scoring that you mention, only a rear hand punch can score. So even if you have the powerful front hand punch like Bruce lee, and it moves the person, it's not a "proper" punch and won't be scored.

The front hand is not illegal and can be effective in setups but you are correct, it doesn't score.

 

[skribs]

Aren't you one of the instructors there? Have you talked with the head instructor to see if you would be able to do non-point sparring once or twice a month, on days where you're teaching?

I am, yes. But I'm never in charge of sparring.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I am, yes. But I'm never in charge of sparring.

Is that something set in stone, or just how it currently is?

If it's set in stone, it can help to create a sort of 'unofficial' sparring club with friends that train in different arts. Find someone with a big basement or backyard, and meet up every once in a while to spar. This only works if you have friends that train outside your school, but I've found that if you ask around you find a lot of people train and just don't advertise it.

 

[skribs]

it can help to create a sort of 'unofficial' sparring club with friends that train in different arts. Find someone with a big basement or backyard, and meet up every once in a while to spar. This only works if you have friends that train outside your school, but I've found that if you ask around you find a lot of people train and just don't advertise it.

I watch a lot of movies, and a lot of those movies have plot holes or things that don't make a whole lot of sense. There's a bunch of people online who try to explain these aren't plot holes by making stuff up (that isn't in the movie) and using that as justification for why it isn't a plot hole. The counter-argument to that is that the movie shouldn't require people to make stuff up in order for it to make sense.

I'm going to apply that counter-argument here. If we have to make our own unofficial club and practice something on our own because we don't do it in class, we can't argue that it's part of the system. If I went to a boxing gym and unofficially taught people how to throw a spinning hook kick, you could hardly say that the spinning hook kick is part of boxing.

If the training is something we do in class and we practice extra on our own, that's one thing. But if it's not something we do in class, then it can't really be considered part of the lessons we get from the art.

 

[skribs]

Please understand everyone that my post title is largely tongue-in-cheek. Don't get too hung up on it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I watch a lot of movies, and a lot of those movies have plot holes or things that don't make a whole lot of sense. There's a bunch of people online who try to explain these aren't plot holes by making stuff up (that isn't in the movie) and using that as justification for why it isn't a plot hole. The counter-argument to that is that the movie shouldn't require people to make stuff up in order for it to make sense.

I'm going to apply that counter-argument here. If we have to make our own unofficial club and practice something on our own because we don't do it in class, we can't argue that it's part of the system. If I went to a boxing gym and unofficially taught people how to throw a spinning hook kick, you could hardly say that the spinning hook kick is part of boxing.

If the training is something we do in class and we practice extra on our own, that's one thing. But if it's not something we do in class, then it can't really be considered part of the lessons we get from the art.

I agree with that. I was more focusing on what sounds to be a deficiency in your own personal training. If you or your school had a way to do this (sparring people without the WTF rules, or sparring against other styles), it would no longer have the deficiency a lot of kukkiwon TKD does (training a lot of hand techniques, but not putting them into practice). If a majority of the style thought like that, then kukkiwon TKD would no longer have that deficiency.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I agree with that. I was more focusing on what sounds to be a deficiency in your own personal training. If you or your school had a way to do this (sparring people without the WTF rules, or sparring against other styles), it would no longer have the deficiency a lot of kukkiwon TKD does (training a lot of hand techniques, but not putting them into practice). If a majority of the style thought like that, then kukkiwon TKD would no longer have that deficiency.

Note: I'm not placing a judgment on whether kukkiwon TKD is bad or good, or if that truly is a deficiency in the art. I haven't seen enough of it to make a judgment, and could see arguments to focus purely on kicks if someone wanted, the same way people argue boxers are better to focus purely on punches, or bjj to focus purely on ground grappling, etc. Me calling it a deficiency is coming directly from your past posts where you seem to believe it is lacking because it doesn't put into practice the hand strikes that you learn in forms/SD techniques.

 

[Buka]

I haven’t trained TKD in a long while, but I knew some TKD guys that punched like beasts.

So did their students.

 

[DaveB]

I watch a lot of movies, and a lot of those movies have plot holes or things that don't make a whole lot of sense. There's a bunch of people online who try to explain these aren't plot holes by making stuff up (that isn't in the movie) and using that as justification for why it isn't a plot hole. The counter-argument to that is that the movie shouldn't require people to make stuff up in order for it to make sense.

I'm going to apply that counter-argument here. If we have to make our own unofficial club and practice something on our own because we don't do it in class, we can't argue that it's part of the system. If I went to a boxing gym and unofficially taught people how to throw a spinning hook kick, you could hardly say that the spinning hook kick is part of boxing.

If the training is something we do in class and we practice extra on our own, that's one thing. But if it's not something we do in class, then it can't really be considered part of the lessons we get from the art.

But your class isn't the only class.

I really struggle to understand your mindset. Why even ask the question if you only want that which is inside of your specific school of Taekwondo? By that framework the answer to every question becomes "whatever your teacher says".

And how do you get to take up boxing to improve your hands if you are limited to what is within your Taekwondo class?

As an aside, boxing is a sport not a martial art. Hook kick is not boxing only because the rules of the sport don't allow it. Sparring without points is a common practice in tkd clubs as a means of training.

 

[pdg]

I watch a lot of movies, and a lot of those movies have plot holes or things that don't make a whole lot of sense. There's a bunch of people online who try to explain these aren't plot holes by making stuff up (that isn't in the movie) and using that as justification for why it isn't a plot hole. The counter-argument to that is that the movie shouldn't require people to make stuff up in order for it to make sense.

I'm going to apply that counter-argument here. If we have to make our own unofficial club and practice something on our own because we don't do it in class, we can't argue that it's part of the system. If I went to a boxing gym and unofficially taught people how to throw a spinning hook kick, you could hardly say that the spinning hook kick is part of boxing.

If the training is something we do in class and we practice extra on our own, that's one thing. But if it's not something we do in class, then it can't really be considered part of the lessons we get from the art.

This post is fantastic, it really helps me understand your mindset.

For me - the very best films, the ones that are the most enjoyable, are the ones that are 'incomplete'. They don't explain everything, they have missing stuff, they make me think and use my imagination. I truly enjoy being engaged.

Those are the ones I buy and watch more than once.

Then you have the ones that leave nothing to the imagination. A steals something from B, B hires C to help him blow up A and get his thing back - explosions, excitement.

Forgotten within hours.


You appear to want tkd to be like the second type. Everything handed to you with a full explanation with no room for anything else. That seems to be the crux of the very vast majority of your recent posts/threads.

The modern "I want it all now without thinking or putting in any effort" mentality.


There's a reason the description contains the word 'art' - it's not a set of downloadable instructions, it's like a brush and collection of pigments.

It should have interpretation, it should have feeling and expression - it should be art.

You want colour by numbers...

 

[Earl Weiss]

There is a bigger issue here. Most beginners go to the most convenient or least expensive school and can not appreciate system weaknesses
1. Many MA systems are not great at something. Hands, Kicks below the belt, Striking in general, grappling, weapons offense or defense etc.
2. The student at some point may recognize what the holes are.
3. The student then needs to decide if they have the desire, and resources to address the holes and to what extent.

For WT the hole happens to be things like punches, strikes below the waist, and grappling etc.

 

[dvcochran]

I am, yes. But I'm never in charge of sparring.

???

 

[Bruce7]

Just my onion.
In the old days sparing was done like in the movie karate kid. No pads. punching was about 40% and kicking 60%.
So we practiced snap punches, back hands , and reverse punches a lot. We knew how to use kicks and punches in combinations.
We were taught body position and how to control punches to the face, so no serious damage was done. We were not allowed to spare for at less 6 months.

Today people are worried about the liability of sparing without pads.They don't want angry parents complaining because their child was punched in the face and has a broken nose. It makes sense, we just have to except if punches do count in tournaments people will not practice punching very much. I was watching kids spare. It was all light kicks, it was kind of sad looking. Then one student made a hard kick to the face and pop the other student pretty good. The mother of the kid who got hit, was mad, she jump up and for a minute I though she was going to go on the floor. Instructor do not need that kind of drama so pads and not punches to the face makes sense.

 

[skribs]

This post is fantastic, it really helps me understand your mindset.

For me - the very best films, the ones that are the most enjoyable, are the ones that are 'incomplete'. They don't explain everything, they have missing stuff, they make me think and use my imagination. I truly enjoy being engaged.

Those are the ones I buy and watch more than once.

Then you have the ones that leave nothing to the imagination. A steals something from B, B hires C to help him blow up A and get his thing back - explosions, excitement.

Forgotten within hours.


You appear to want tkd to be like the second type. Everything handed to you with a full explanation with no room for anything else. That seems to be the crux of the very vast majority of your recent posts/threads.

The modern "I want it all now without thinking or putting in any effort" mentality.


There's a reason the description contains the word 'art' - it's not a set of downloadable instructions, it's like a brush and collection of pigments.

It should have interpretation, it should have feeling and expression - it should be art.

You want colour by numbers...

There's a difference between films that don't explain everything and require you to think about them, and films which simply have glaring plot holes that people make excuses for.

 

[skribs]

There is a bigger issue here. Most beginners go to the most convenient or least expensive school and can not appreciate system weaknesses
1. Many MA systems are not great at something. Hands, Kicks below the belt, Striking in general, grappling, weapons offense or defense etc.
2. The student at some point may recognize what the holes are.
3. The student then needs to decide if they have the desire, and resources to address the holes and to what extent.

For WT the hole happens to be things like punches, strikes below the waist, and grappling etc.

At this point, in this post, I'm mainly at Step 2. If I am at Step 3, then at this point I do not have the time to devote to filling these holes. I still have stuff to learn in what TKD does excel in, and I'm training in Hapkido, so I already have a lot going on. I'm merely recognizing this is a hole, and looking at filling that hole down the line.

???

Just my onion.
In the old days sparing was done like in the movie karate kid. No pads. punching was about 40% and kicking 60%.
So we practiced snap punches, back hands , and reverse punches a lot. We knew how to use kicks and punches in combinations.
We were taught body position and how to control punches to the face, so no serious damage was done. We were not allowed to spare for at less 6 months.

Today people are worried about the liability of sparing without pads.They don't want angry parents complaining because their child was punched in the face and has a broken nose. It makes sense, we just have to except if punches do count in tournaments people will not practice punching very much. I was watching kids spare. It was all light kicks, it was kind of sad looking. Then one student made a hard kick to the face and pop the other student pretty good. The mother of the kid who got hit, was mad, she jump up and for a minute I though she was going to go on the floor. Instructor do not need that kind of drama so pads and not punches to the face makes sense.

@Bruce7 's post kind of answers @dvcochran 's question.