Why No Engineers Any More?

[Sukerkin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17192460

An interesting article on the attempt to try and revive the flagging professsion of the Engineer in this country (Britain).

Whilst I applaud the endeavour, I do have to say that two reasons why there are too few engineers are that it is, firstly, a complex and demanding discipline (whichever branch you are in) and, secondly, it is chronically underpaid. It is no word of a lie that the pay-cut I would take to go and work as a shelf-stacker for Aldi (a supermarket chain) would be quite survivable i.e. not a catastrophic drop in living standards. Young people entering the work-place are looking for a step up in their fortunes as a reward for their education - engineering seldom provides that and it should.

 

[granfire]

not a lot of prestige in the job description to offset the smallish paycheck....

Or rather when you realize you should have gotten the degree to get the paycheck you deserve for your work, it's a bit late.

 

[oftheherd1]

There must be a large spectrum of pay scales. My two sons-in-law are engineers in different disciplines, and they seem to be doing pretty well.

 

[dancingalone]

Must be different in the UK.

My first few jobs out of college were in electrical engineering. EE graduates at the time in the US made the most out of any other bachelor's program. The technical background served me well when I went back for my MBA and I was hired on at a top consulting firm.

Engineers aren't immune to the bad economy, but the USA lacks a supply of home grown talent educated in math and science who can communicate well. The prospects continue to look good for young people with those qualities whether with an American company or with elsewhere.

 

[granfire]

Must be different in the UK.

My first few jobs out of college were in electrical engineering. EE graduates at the time in the US made the most out of any other bachelor's program. The technical background served me well when I went back for my MBA and I was hired on at a top consulting firm.

Engineers aren't immune to the bad economy, but the USA lacks a supply of home grown talent educated in math and science who can communicate well. The prospects continue to look good for young people with those qualities whether with an American company or with elsewhere.

see, same problem. Not enough coming up through the ranks.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In the US, the problem hasn't been lack of people taking engineering and IT degrees. The problem has been that they are all foreigners. The come here, learn, and go home, to build companies and destroy our economy some more.

Funny thing is, many of them would stay if they could; but our ridiculous immigration laws, led by the "I don't like brown people" set, won't let them put down permanent roots here. So home they go, along with the information we've given them on how to beat us at what we do best; innovate.

But even if we let them stay after graduation in large numbers, there is a still a problem of American citizens taking engineering and IT degrees; they're not doing it. They get liberal arts degrees instead and then when they cannot find jobs, they protest against the 1% because they DESERVE a good paying job after getting a degree in Understanding Your Bellybutton or The Incredible Sadness of Being Alive.

Fine with me. I do just fine in IT, thanks. Idiots want to take degrees in Integral Studies of Emotions Amongst Mollusks, good on them. I'll be the one with the job.

 

[granfire]

well, we long taught the masses that ANY degree is the key to riches.

We are lacking good trades people, too. Probably making as much money as an engineer.....

If the brown engineer people were to stay we'd still have a problem....

ah, it's a no win, unless we go socialistic and force people into carriers we need for the benefit of the economic growth.


(now I am brewing some good tea and waiting for billi...)

 

[dancingalone]

see, same problem. Not enough coming up through the ranks.

Without a doubt. I was more addressing Sukerkin's point that he could take a job as a grocery stocker and not suffer much of an income loss. That's not the reality where I live. Shelf stockers make about $12 an hour here. Meanwhile electrical engineers in my area make anywhere from $60,000 - $90,000 yearly based on their experience - managers & directors who frequently are promoted from the ranks make a lot more. This doesn't include bonuses and other incentive pay either.

The inability to keep foreign talent is a huge problem. If we look at the rosters of any graduate program in science and engineering, the bulk of the students come from India, China, Korea...On the other hand, we do seem to be producing plenty of lawyers judging by the ever increasing numbers of bar admissions.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

well, we long taught the masses that ANY degree is the key to riches.

We are lacking good trades people, too. Probably making as much money as an engineer.....

If the brown engineer people were to stay we'd still have a problem....

ah, it's a no win, unless we go socialistic and force people into carriers we need for the benefit of the economic growth.


(now I am brewing some good tea and waiting for billi...)

I agree with you. We still tend to preach this 'everybody should go to college' thing or at the very least 'everybody should have the right to go to college'. It's about the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

Does the guy who paints houses need a college degree? How about the guy who installs cables for the phone company or the cable television company? The guy who sells cars? How about the guy who puts fenders on Chrysler's? The guy who runs a CNC mill or a lathe? The guy who frames windows? Puts the roofs on houses or pours tar on new roadways? Any of them require college degrees?

We like to talk about the 'nobility' of labor, but then we make it clear we don't really value that, nor do we value the real-life skills required to fix a car or to repair a washing machine or to apply a welding rod to two pieces of metal. We look down on and cut funding to community colleges that teach vocational skills; we want people to aspire to nobler goals!

Here are some basic truths. Not everyone wants to go to college. Not everyone is equipped, mentally, emotionally, or physically, to succeed in college. And frankly, cluttering up the classrooms with people who do not want to be there or who are not equipped to compete and succeed in such an environment is about the most hand-wringing claptrap I've ever heard in my life.

I don't understand where these moronic shiny happy people think everyone is going to work once they graduate college. When everyone has a college degree, all you've done is devalue a college degree. And who drives a taxi when everyone is a college graduate and has been told to expect more from their lives? MORONS!

The world needs people who know how to fix things; how to build things that engineers have designed, now to grow crops, how to cut and fold and sew and paint and hammer and dig and so on. We need these people, and what's more, we want them to be happy doing what they want to do; not miserable because they feel they were denied the right to go to college, to better themselves, to be 'elite' and 'better', as if a college degree actually conferred that (which it does not).

People who have the desire to go to college and who have the ability to succeed should have the opportunity to do so. And they do now; but it requires them to want it enough to take some risks and work hard to get it. When I got out of the military, it was during the period between Vietnam-era GI Bill school money and the Gulf War GI Bill school money programs. For veterans like me, there was no money for school, no GI Bill.

But I wanted to complete college, so I took out student loans, I worked in the college computer lab part-time, I held down a full time job in addition to that, and I got my degree. I just paid off the last of my student loans at age 50. Was life unfair to me? No! I got everything I bargained for and then some. The opportunities were there and I took advantage of them. They still exist. That the opportunities are not laid at the feet of some lazy-butts is not my problem and not society's problem.

In conclusion, I get so tired of the whining about higher education. If you want to go, go. You can if you want to and if you're equipped for it. Choose your path of study wisely if you intend to be gainfully employed afterwards; it's not that hard to understand that a degree in Poetry does not lead to a seat at a corporate boardroom. If you want to study Poetry, by all means do so, but understand what that means for your future employment chances; the world owes you NOTHING in return for your degree. I also get tired of the whiners and hand-wringers who think everybody ought to go to college. Take a look around you, morons. The world was built and is maintained by people without degrees, people who use their hands and their backs as well as their minds, people whose educations are in their vocations; how to weld properly as opposed to how to find the square root of pi. And we need them, now more than ever if jobs are going to move back to the USA. Let them be; they are vital parts of our economy; stop filling their heads with crap and stop pretending that what they do for a living is 'less than' those who are educated and work in other professions. There is no better or worse; just different. I need my mechanic to be able to fix my car. He needs me to help engineers continue to build cars. We need to do what we do and stop trying to mess with things hoping everyone can be rich, educated, and not have to lift a shovel or a hammer in their life. It doesn't work that way.

End of rant.

 

[Steve]

I have told my kids that people are often successful without an advanced degree. If you're smart, talented and hardworking, you can get a good job that pays well. Education doesn't guarantee success; it gives you choices. If you get good grades in high school, you have options. You CAN go to college. You could also go to a trade school, or into the military. If you get excellent grades, the choice of colleges opens up and you also have the option of vying for a scholarship. The better your grades, the more choices you have.

A college degree doesn't guarantee success, but it does give you options. You can compete for jobs for which you would not otherwise qualify. It opens up more choices. And, once again, the better you do in college, the more choices you have.

Does everyone need to go to college? No. Of course not. It's about choosing an apprenticeship over a formal degree, not settling for an apprenticeship because you don't qualify for a degree. Or choosing an ROTC scholarship over enlisting as an E-1.

I want my kids to be happy and healthy and independent. That's my job right now for them, and in my mind, that means preparing them so that when they graduate, they have choices to make, and college is absolutely an option I want for them.

Bill, as for community colleges, I have seen no loss of funding for them in Washington. In fact, they seem to be growing by leaps and bounds. Technical programs are also growing, particularly in the area of medical support (dental assistants, technicians, opticians and the like). Seattle also has strong, competitive apprenticeships for electricians and carpenters that I know of. I wouldn't be surprised to see other trades doing well, also. I definitely agree that we need strong community colleges. I got into a university as a direct result of graduating with an Associates degree. Unlike my kids, I didn't have a lot of options. And, I'm sure like most parents, I want to do my best to save my kids from making the same mistakes I made.

 

[Sukerkin]

It is good to hear boots-on-the-ground anecdotal evidence for what I have thought to be true for some time i.e. that many other nations (especially Germany) honour their engineers much more than Britain does. Given that engineering formed the foundations of the Industrial Revolution and, thus, the Empire it is a great sadness that it is a profession that has fallen so badly in the national consciouness.

In part I think it has been because of the drive to have an 'office' job and not get your hands 'dirty' for a living. That has lead to a push to graduate in business/finance/law rather than what I call the 'civils' (engineering, computing and science) - a view that is a bit at odds with reality really considering I, like many engineers, spend most of my time in a suit and at a desk.

 

[granfire]

Without a doubt. I was more addressing Sukerkin's point that he could take a job as a grocery stocker and not suffer much of an income loss. That's not the reality where I live. Shelf stockers make about $12 an hour here. Meanwhile electrical engineers in my area make anywhere from $60,000 - $90,000 yearly based on their experience - managers & directors who frequently are promoted from the ranks make a lot more. This doesn't include bonuses and other incentive pay either.

The inability to keep foreign talent is a huge problem. If we look at the rosters of any graduate program in science and engineering, the bulk of the students come from India, China, Korea...On the other hand, we do seem to be producing plenty of lawyers judging by the ever increasing numbers of bar admissions.

Engineering is a tough course...law? I heard not so much. Gotta have the gift of gab I suppose.

 

[cdunn]

Bill, as for community colleges, I have seen no loss of funding for them in Washington. In fact, they seem to be growing by leaps and bounds. Technical programs are also growing, particularly in the area of medical support (dental assistants, technicians, opticians and the like). Seattle also has strong, competitive apprenticeships for electricians and carpenters that I know of. I wouldn't be surprised to see other trades doing well, also. I definitely agree that we need strong community colleges. I got into a university as a direct result of graduating with an Associates degree. Unlike my kids, I didn't have a lot of options. And, I'm sure like most parents, I want to do my best to save my kids from making the same mistakes I made.

Sadly, here in Pennslyvania, the useless, gas-company-pandering toad of a mistake that misoccupies the governer's office has successfully enacted a 30% statewide gashing of education, and is pushing to bring that total to 44% next year. The brunt of the cuts have fallen on higher education, and therefore also upon community colleges. His campaign was funded in part by interest groups that are pushing for the total elimination of public education.

 

[Steve]

Crappy... sorry to hear that, Bill.

 

[granfire]

Sadly, here in Pennslyvania, the useless, gas-company-pandering toad of a mistake that misoccupies the governer's office has successfully enacted a 30% statewide gashing of education, and is pushing to bring that total to 44% next year. The brunt of the cuts have fallen on higher education, and therefore also upon community colleges. His campaign was funded in part by interest groups that are pushing for the total elimination of public education.

Charming.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, as for community colleges, I have seen no loss of funding for them in Washington. In fact, they seem to be growing by leaps and bounds. Technical programs are also growing, particularly in the area of medical support (dental assistants, technicians, opticians and the like). Seattle also has strong, competitive apprenticeships for electricians and carpenters that I know of. I wouldn't be surprised to see other trades doing well, also. I definitely agree that we need strong community colleges. I got into a university as a direct result of graduating with an Associates degree. Unlike my kids, I didn't have a lot of options. And, I'm sure like most parents, I want to do my best to save my kids from making the same mistakes I made.

http://egpnews.com/2012/02/community-colleges-to-lose-more-funding/

Community Colleges To Lose More Funding
February 23, 2012 Copyright © 2012 Eastern Group Publications, Inc.

By EGP News Report

Lower than expected state revenues and a higher demand for student fee waivers are behind a continued onslaught of cuts to California’s community college system, which is being asked to cut another $149 million from this year’s budget. The cuts could result in additional staff reductions, increased borrowing, and further elimination of college courses.

The news came as an unwelcome surprise to state community college officials who already endured a $400 million hit to the state’s 112 colleges serving 2.6 million students earlier this year that was then followed by another $102 million cut as part of a slate of “trigger cuts” made last December when state revenue came in lower than expected.

http://www.hostos.cuny.edu/news/press/fvmrCenturyFoundation.html

“Will higher education reduce or exacerbate the growing economic divide in this nation?” said Dr. Anthony Marx, president of the New York Public Library who is co-chairing the group with Eduardo Padron, president of Miami Dade College. “If the better funded four-year sector caters to wealthier white students while community colleges lose funding to educate low-income and minority students, the two-year sector will remain separate and unequal.”

Currently, the United States spends almost three times more to educate each four-year college students than it does for community college students.

I think that President Obama has correctly noted the need for more community colleges. Unfortunately, recent decisions in Washington regarding how funds are appropriated and spent is tied to college enrollment. As prices for community colleges rise, enrollment drops. Which causes costs to rise, which causes enrollment to drop. We have community colleges closing, that's not a good thing.