Why is their so much disrespect for Karate? And what can we do to stop it?

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,355
Reaction score
4,645
Location
England
Judo has over 100 grappling techniques, 67 of which are nage waza. You're saying you learned that many through karate?
Wado Ryu karate includes throws and grappling as the founder was also a Jujutsu master.
 

angelariz

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
134
Reaction score
29
Location
CT
I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie
Honestly, good Karate is on par with a y other art except Grappling arts. The biggest problem is the Mc dojo pay for black belt factories. They are easy to market and skill isnt important to Mcdojos.
You do hundreds of hours of Kata and zero randori or realistic fighting. Lots of 13 year old black belts that can't do a form to save their lives gives Karate the bad rap.
 

angelariz

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
134
Reaction score
29
Location
CT
Bruises, black eyes and running into training partners in social settings are all scenarios I've encountered that make it impossible to keep it a secret. I've even had friends flat out ask me if I have trained in anything.
Rule #1 about fight club...don't talk about fight club

Hehehe
 

ThatOneSyrian

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
47
Reaction score
32
Location
N/A
Short answer: There is a higher percentage of bad Karate practitioners than there are bad boxing/MT/etc practitioners.

Long answer: Because of the more sophisticated nature of Karate, it requires a highly competent instructor to teach it properly, and putting this position in the hands of a mediocre teacher is what causes so many "black belts" to be churned out. Allow me to give an analogy that fits with the "McDojo" explanation:

Americanization has done to Karate what it has done to food: reducing the quality while increasing the availability. In the same way that it's easier to find a fast food joint than a top-notch eatery, it's easier to find a low-quality training center than a real dojo. And in the same way that the widespread availability of fast food has turned the average human being into an unhealthy mess, the widespread availability of low-quality Karate training has turned the average Karateka into a very poor martial artist.

In the same way you'd select a place to have a good meal at, it is recommended that you do your research on a dojo before you train at it. Good dojos do exist, and I am thankful to be training at an excellent one at the moment, but they are a rarity in the United States.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
18,782
Reaction score
4,369
Location
Covington, WA
Short answer: There is a higher percentage of bad Karate practitioners than there are bad boxing/MT/etc practitioners.

Long answer: Because of the more sophisticated nature of Karate, it requires a highly competent instructor to teach it properly, and putting this position in the hands of a mediocre teacher is what causes so many "black belts" to be churned out. Allow me to give an analogy that fits with the "McDojo" explanation:

Americanization has done to Karate what it has done to food: reducing the quality while increasing the availability. In the same way that it's easier to find a fast food joint than a top-notch eatery, it's easier to find a low-quality training center than a real dojo. And in the same way that the widespread availability of fast food has turned the average human being into an unhealthy mess, the widespread availability of low-quality Karate training has turned the average Karateka into a very poor martial artist.

In the same way you'd select a place to have a good meal at, it is recommended that you do your research on a dojo before you train at it. Good dojos do exist, and I am thankful to be training at an excellent one at the moment, but they are a rarity in the United States.
I would expect that most or all Kyokushin Karate dojos are legit, because application is baked into the training in the form of full contact competition. Becoming an expert in Kyokushin Karate may take years, but becoming proficient certainly wouldn't take that long.

Regarding the long answer, frankly, I think application sort of magically shortens a learning curve. Learning anything without application is a long and ultimately unreliable process.
 
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
I would expect that most or all Kyokushin Karate dojos are legit, because application is baked into the training in the form of full contact competition. Becoming an expert in Kyokushin Karate may take years, but becoming proficient certainly wouldn't take that long.

Regarding the long answer, frankly, I think application sort of magically shortens a learning curve. Learning anything without application is a long and ultimately unreliable process.
they still dont punch to the face in sparring for some reason and Kykoshin has its own bad ones, given there are like 10 kykoshin orgs and everyone wants to make themselves look like it/try to fake linegiage for marketing reasons.

also as for the orginal post you quoted, there is a lot of sophistican in boxing, muay thai etc. "sophistication" is not the issue, compelte nonsense inside the art is.
 

ThatOneSyrian

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
47
Reaction score
32
Location
N/A
I would expect that most or all Kyokushin Karate dojos are legit, because application is baked into the training in the form of full contact competition. Becoming an expert in Kyokushin Karate may take years, but becoming proficient certainly wouldn't take that long.

Regarding the long answer, frankly, I think application sort of magically shortens a learning curve. Learning anything without application is a long and ultimately unreliable process.
Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo.
 

WonderingMonk

White Belt
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
3
Reaction score
3
I've been practicing karate for some time now and I was wondering why there's so much disrespect for this martial art. I dont understand that I cant talk about Karate casually without getting that awkward look. I mean people practice wrestling and their practically praised for it. I mean I'll be in a group setting and someone will ask "So play any sports?" I dont wanna say anything because when I do I get that awkward look, but then again I dont wanna lie
Really, it’s due to the misunderstanding about the nature of the art which has led to it being viewed as a pop culture meme. I avoid really talking to many about my martial arts practice.
 

Urban Trekker

Brown Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
416
Reaction score
127
Location
Hampton, VA
Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo
I watched a video last week by Jesse Enkamp, where he went to go watch a Karate Combat competition. Basically, full contact, just like MMA; only it's strictly karate.

One thing I would live to see are gyms specifically for karateka to train for that type of sport. These wouldn't be dojos in the sense of training there to learn new techniques, kata, etc. No, you already have a dojo that. These hypothetical gyms would only be open to people practicing karate at a dojo, and training for this sport would be separate and in addition to.

So one of these hypothetical gyms would be in an area with multiple dojos, and people from these dojos could attend this gym.

I think that this would be an awesome alternative for people who live in areas where Kyokushin is not available, or for someone prefers a different style but still wants to do full contact competition.

Hell, this might even make karate "cool" again.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
18,782
Reaction score
4,369
Location
Covington, WA
they still dont punch to the face in sparring for some reason and Kykoshin has its own bad ones, given there are like 10 kykoshin orgs and everyone wants to make themselves look like it/try to fake linegiage for marketing reasons.

also as for the orginal post you quoted, there is a lot of sophistican in boxing, muay thai etc. "sophistication" is not the issue, compelte nonsense inside the art is.
Politics, competition, business, money, ego.... Many things can kill an organization that have nothing to do with the quality (good or bad) of the product.

Marketing and all that is important for the business. But for the quality of the training, it's about learning what you think you're learning, and doing what you learn. So, you could have the most legit karate dojo, on paper, but if you don't train and compete with full contact, that dojo is one generation from a clear and visible drop in skill level.

Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo.

I get what you're saying, and you may be right. It's a bit of a chicken/egg thing. Are people who are interested in being able to fight just inclined to be a little more... I don't know... gritty? Or does training in a style that actually, really teaches you to fight intrinsically promote grittiness?

That said, there is a spectrum that I think is largely a reflection of the school owner. I mean, I would hope that all BJJ schools are clean and safe. But there are BJJ schools that are more formal, some that are more polished looking, or sophisticated. In BJJ, there are folks who are so technically skilled they will get you wrapped up in knots that you never see coming. And then there are guys who will make you tap just from pressure in side control, just beasts.

But as long as they all compete and all apply technique in context, the skills are developing.

Where you really get into trouble is when folks hide a lack of application behind things like refinement, sophistication, or deadliness, or other self defense buzzwords.

I watched a video last week by Jesse Enkamp, where he went to go watch a Karate Combat competition. Basically, full contact, just like MMA; only it's strictly karate.

One thing I would live to see are gyms specifically for karateka to train for that type of sport. These wouldn't be dojos in the sense of training there to learn new techniques, kata, etc. No, you already have a dojo that. These hypothetical gyms would only be open to people practicing karate at a dojo, and training for this sport would be separate and in addition to.

So one of these hypothetical gyms would be in an area with multiple dojos, and people from these dojos could attend this gym.

I think that this would be an awesome alternative for people who live in areas where Kyokushin is not available, or for someone prefers a different style but still wants to do full contact competition.

Hell, this might even make karate "cool" again.
My belief is that you add application back into any style and it wouldn't take long to sort out the BS from what is functional.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,550
Reaction score
8,063
Location
Maui
I have known and have friends who are black belts in Kyokushin Karate. Every single one of them loves punching to the face. I've never known one who does not.

The very first time I saw a Karate fighting competition was at Boston Arena (oldest multipurpose athletic building still in use in the word) It was a team competition, featuring a Kyokushin team. The matches were held in a boxing ring, the competitors wore no pads, no gloves.

They looked like they were trying to kill each other. Blood all over the place, then just throw some tape over the wounds and go at it some more. Their faces were a mess, their gis bloody.

It was kinda nuts. But it got me hooked. Not the blood and injuries, but the manners and behavior displayed by the competitors.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
663
Reaction score
457
they still dont punch to the face in sparring for some reason and Kykoshin has its own bad ones, given there are like 10 kykoshin orgs and everyone wants to make themselves look like it/try to fake linegiage for marketing reasons.

also as for the orginal post you quoted, there is a lot of sophistican in boxing, muay thai etc. "sophistication" is not the issue, compelte nonsense inside the art is.
Yes, like all things, there is a spectrum of what is available especially considering when you have a sport that is so widely practiced and where there are no real governing bodies to maintain standards. Kyokushin is no exception. As much as many of us would like to do a 'dojo storming', legalities arising from a storming make that idea a non-starter. Everyone knows who these dojos are and these dojos are more than welcome to come and compete in any Knockdown tournament. In fact, we would love to see them !
Something to go along with your answer: I have heard numerous traditional Karateka criticize Kyokushin for being too brutish and unsophisticated! I guess the more complex the art, the more likely it is you'll get a McDojo.
Perhaps in the early days of Kyokushin but even then Sosai Mas Oyama said of Kyokushin "This is not brawling karate. It is Budo karate.". The evolution of Knockdown as a sport has caused a genesis in techniques used, adopted and adapted for Kyokushin. You rarely see top Knockdown fighters solely standing in front of each other in a war of attrition. Knockdown fighting is much more tactical and sophisticated. Fighters are still tough and conditioned but they are also more focused on strategy and tactics to be able to lengthen their fighting careers.
I watched a video last week by Jesse Enkamp, where he went to go watch a Karate Combat competition. Basically, full contact, just like MMA; only it's strictly karate.

One thing I would live to see are gyms specifically for karateka to train for that type of sport. These wouldn't be dojos in the sense of training there to learn new techniques, kata, etc. No, you already have a dojo that. These hypothetical gyms would only be open to people practicing karate at a dojo, and training for this sport would be separate and in addition to.

So one of these hypothetical gyms would be in an area with multiple dojos, and people from these dojos could attend this gym.

I think that this would be an awesome alternative for people who live in areas where Kyokushin is not available, or for someone prefers a different style but still wants to do full contact competition.

Hell, this might even make karate "cool" again.
Sosai Mas Oyama never intended Kyokushin to become a sport. His goal was to create a budo karate. Knockdown as a sport arose from the desire of his students to practice their art in a 'safer' fashion. One that would allow people to hone their skills through testing them against other non compliant combatants in a format that would allow large masses of students to be able to compete with one another. So to be clear, Kyokushin is the art. Knockdown is the sport.

This being said, there are Kyokushin dojos that have a heavy focus on Knockdown and allow many students to spend the majority of their time focused on Knockdown fighting. As previously said, there is a spectrum in Kyokushin.
I have known and have friends who are black belts in Kyokushin Karate. Every single one of them loves punching to the face. I've never known one who does not.

The very first time I saw a Karate fighting competition was at Boston Arena (oldest multipurpose athletic building still in use in the word) It was a team competition, featuring a Kyokushin team. The matches were held in a boxing ring, the competitors wore no pads, no gloves.

They looked like they were trying to kill each other. Blood all over the place, then just throw some tape over the wounds and go at it some more. Their faces were a mess, their gis bloody.

It was kinda nuts. But it got me hooked. Not the blood and injuries, but the manners and behavior displayed by the competitors.
Yes we do. Some of us even practice regularly :). It's only a little nuts but that is what makes the art truthful. Everyone that steps onto the tatami to fight Knockdown understands that the truth of their training will become revealed when the Sushin declares 'hajime'. You either did enough to get ready or you didn't. There are no ties and the lessons on where you need to practice will be revealed that day or the next when the bruises begin to appear.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,626
Reaction score
8,078
Location
Hendersonville, NC
It's a bit of a chicken/egg thing. Are people who are interested in being able to fight just inclined to be a little more... I don't know... gritty? Or does training in a style that actually, really teaches you to fight intrinsically promote grittiness?
My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
8,985
Reaction score
3,004
Location
New York
My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.
I'd argue that it's much more the first. People are likely to want to train in a style that's compatible with them, and I've learned most of the population doesn't actually want to do anything that might result in pain. So most people that look for, and more importantly continue past the first few lessons, with hard contact are those that are "gritty" enough to be okay with the level of pain. Their toughness might increase, but they've got to have that base level of toughness to begin with.

The exception is those that have some sort of motivation that is more powerful than their desire to avoid pain (whether that's honor, revenge, avoiding other pain, fear, etc.). But IME most people, even those that think they've got that motivation, don't actually when it comes to training a hard contact style.
 
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.
I personally dont mind doing that if A i can still live right after wards and B they prepare you right, the minority seems to do these.

Live right means, you cant work if you mess up your leg, so you cant mess up your leg as routine as you have effectively killed yourself. Prepare you right would be, they dont shove somone whos defanged into a cage and basically have them in the hospital for a month after.

Actually, that might be the issue, they forget these are two realities in the modern world(and non modern world), you cant expect 100 from somone who has not done it before, nor can you expect them to effectively make themselves homeless doing a hobby, even people who need to learn these things cant go to work if they break their leg, or do their job right if they burn their body in training instead of work. Unless your getting paid as you put yourself in the hospital, especially if the hospital bills are your resposniblity, its not sustainable economically or physically

Hell i think teachers have had to shut schools for a peroid of time if no one could take over teaching and they couldnt teach for the duration due to injury. Calculated risk and all that, martial arts are inherently risky but you can make them more or less so by what you do and how you do it.

Probbly well known, but i think its forgotten about a lot, iniatations are meant to be one offs, and you make the concious choice to sacrifice something as a proof thing.
 
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
Both big claims to make if you've never tried a hard contact school to see if either are true.
Hard contact is such where you use the same force as you would use to knock the person out no? thats how i define it anyway.

As opposed to light which is pretty much tapping.

Addendum: TKD tends to be hard contact in the sense, you will go full strength to mimick the sport, but you have a armour requirement usually so a economic bar. I dont think theyd let you go full clout without the armour either, the only other caterory is step, light and contionous light. as far as i recall.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,626
Reaction score
8,078
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I'd argue that it's much more the first. People are likely to want to train in a style that's compatible with them, and I've learned most of the population doesn't actually want to do anything that might result in pain. So most people that look for, and more importantly continue past the first few lessons, with hard contact are those that are "gritty" enough to be okay with the level of pain. Their toughness might increase, but they've got to have that base level of toughness to begin with.

The exception is those that have some sort of motivation that is more powerful than their desire to avoid pain (whether that's honor, revenge, avoiding other pain, fear, etc.). But IME most people, even those that think they've got that motivation, don't actually when it comes to training a hard contact style.
Agreed. Perhaps I was too subtle in including that by way of shifting my wording. Tough folks are more likely drawn to hard contact, and any signiificant contact builds toughness. So folks who choose contact (but not so much hard contact) will toughen.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,633
Reaction score
2,698
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Besides jab and cross, does Karate have hook, uppercut, and overhand? Also does the concept of "1 step multiple punches" exist in Karate?

IMO, some TMA striking skill are just too linear without 3 dimensional striking. If one always trains 2 dimensional linear punches, he may not feel comfortable to deal with 3 dimensional punches such as jab/cross, hook, uppercut, overhand.
 
Last edited:

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
8,985
Reaction score
3,004
Location
New York
Hard contact is such where you use the same force as you would use to knock the person out no? thats how i define it anyway.

As opposed to light which is pretty much tapping.
Yes. Have you trained in a dojo that offers this? If not, your claims about what happens in those dojos is off base.
 
Top