why do I mostly see older folks when attending adult Karate class?

[skribs]

And this is one of the biggest problems with martial arts schools in the US.

1. The way a class should be run is vastly different for 5yr olds vs 15 yr olds vs 25 yr olds. So a class with 5 yr olds has to cater to the lowest common denominator which means older students really aren’t getting as much out of class as they could.
2. There’s never a reason to put young children in positions that could make them think that theyre in a peer group with adults. There’s really no good reason for a 25 year old student to be put into close social settings with 14 or 17 year olds they’re not related to.

I came up in a mixed age dojo and I realized now it had me thinking I was more mature and more adult than I was. Then there’s the risk of predators. I’m sure we all heard about those girls in HS who were 14 or 15 but had 20+ year old boyfriends.

It really didn’t hit me how weird this all was though until stingray was introduced in Cobra Kai. He is a parody but a great example of why adults need to be kept out of classes that have minors in them.

I disagree with all of your opinions in this post. But first, I must disagree with the facts. In the post you quoted, I was talking about young adults and older adults. Not 5 year olds and 25 year olds; but rather 25 year olds and 50 year olds. So you're already arguing with a point I didn't make.

With that said, older people mentor younger people all of the time. Experienced people mentor inexperienced people all of the time. When I first started in Taekwondo, there was a 15-year-old girl who was a 3rd-degree black belt, who taught me a lot during my first year. I was 25. In the adult class, we had students age 13+. We sometimes had younger students, if they couldn't make it to the kid's class due to schedule conflicts, or if they were family members of older students (or a few that were 12 but more like teenagers than kids).

When teenagers are put into that position of being in class with adults, they have examples of how to behave like adults. They're also going to be in peer groups with adults when they get a job. When I was 16, I started attending college through a Running Start program, and I was in class with adults. Heck, I tutored adults.

Yes, there are predators. Yes, Stingray was a bad example. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work the vast majority of the time.

 

[GojuTommy]

@skribs
I see you already replied so this is an edit.

Children don’t learn how to act like adults by attending karate classes with adults in them. They can learn how adults act in karate classes sure…but it should be the instructor who sets the standard for the teens and enforces that standard.

A 17 year old taught a 25 yr old you stuff cool, doesn’t change the fact that it’s weird that you were interacting that closely with a child who was a stranger.
There’s no other activity of the sort where random strange adults are put into close social settings as children as equals, or even as instructors.

I’ve never heard of a dance class that had 15 year olds and 40 year olds in class together.

Never heard of a soccer or volleyball or basketball league or team that did the same.

There’s no reason for teens and random adults to be interacting in close social settings on a regular basis.

 

[skribs]

I have. For obvious reasons, in grappling classes it's not ok for adults to wrestle with kids.

And even a TKD class I did a free lesson at separates kids from adults at under 16.

Honestly if there's any decent amount of physical contact, I don't know why you'd want your kid doing that with a fully grown 30 year old dude that could easily hurt them.

If there's zero contact (...) then there's probably no big deal mixing them, but if I were an instructor I'd be very cautious with the adults who are eager to train with kids. Sadly we live in a world where sick people seek out places like that.

1) I said young adults and older adults, not kids and adults.
2) Adults understand the responsibility of not hurting kids. I'd be much more worried about a 10-year-old in the same class as a 6-year-old, than a 30-year-old with either of the kids.

 

[skribs]

@skribs
Is there a particular part of my post you disagree with?

It’s scientifically proven the environments necessary to teach young children is inappropriate for teens, and the same goes for teens and people who are 20+

So are you opposed to that, or do you think it’s appropriate to have a 15 yr old in close social situations with 30 year old strangers?

Not a particular part of it. The entire post.

It's been my experience that with proper leadership, you can have a class that has kids, teenagers, and adults.

Same goes for 15 year olds and 30 year olds being in class together. For one, Stingray was the only adult and Karate was being treated as a kids-only sport. (Nevermind how Daniel and Johnny are still learning Karate as adults). Taekwondo was often a family affair, where you would have mom, dad, teenagers, and kids all in the same class. Take that away, and they might not do martial arts.

I taught for several years in this environment. To say it's scientifically proven not to work, well...those scientists are idiots.

 

[GojuTommy]

1) I said young adults and older adults, not kids and adults.
2) Adults understand the responsibility of not hurting kids. I'd be much more worried about a 10-year-old in the same class as a 6-year-old, than a 30-year-old with either of the kids.

I do apologize though as it seems I misread your post as
Young people and older adults.

That’s my bad

 

[Oily Dragon]

1) I said young adults and older adults, not kids and adults.
2) Adults understand the responsibility of not hurting kids. I'd be much more worried about a 10-year-old in the same class as a 6-year-old, than a 30-year-old with either of the kids.

So when you say "young adult" you mean 18 year olds. Ok. In some places it's going to be younger, like 16.

But on the number 2, I don't know dude. "Adults understand the responsibility..." that's a very idealistic broad stroke and it doesn't stack up with my life experiences.

 

[GojuTommy]

So when you say "young adult" you mean 18 year olds. Ok. In some places it's going to be younger, like 16.

But on the number 2, I don't know dude. "Adults understand the responsibility..." that's a very idealistic broad stroke and it doesn't stack up with my life experiences.

I created a thread specifically for this topic so we don’t get this thread off topic
too much.

Mixed age group classes needs to stop

I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join. I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class. 1...

www.martialtalk.com

 

[MetalBoar]

He’s not wrong about staving off things like dementia and Alzheimer’s in your 50s.
Honestly it’s something we should be thinking about in our 20s.

I forget if it’s dementia or Alzheimer’s, but a famous chess champion got one of those two, but he never got as bad as most people. What happened was his brain went from being able to think 15 moves ahead, to only 10, to only 5 to only 2 or 3.

All he’s saying is around 50 a lot of people are going to be thinking about dementia more than most people do around 30.

I do agree that if you care about a long, healthy and functional life you should start working on it as young as possible, and that includes things to keep your brain sharp. We're definitely on the same page there.

Where I disagree is that I don't think very many people actually think about dementia until it happens to someone they care about and can relate to in that way, or until they start to feel the effects themselves. So, sure, more people in their 50's have had that experience with a loved one in their life than people in their 30's. I just think that the number of 50 year old's motivated to take up an athletic endeavor for brain health, as opposed to general health, is only slightly higher than 30 year old's, and in general, in both age groups, it's the same sort of personality. So, if theoretically say 2% of 30 y.o. MA students are taking it in part for mental health reasons then maybe 3-4% of 50 y.o. might be too.

For me it went the other direction, I became more cautious about doing things with a lot of head strikes because I didn't want to damage my brain. If there had been more awareness about CTE when I was young I'd have cared more then too.

I was taking a Tai Chi class before the pandemic. Being Tai Chi, far more than karate, it attracted an older crowd, and being in a neighborhood that had a number of age restricted communities (55+), and being a very inexpensive class at the local community center, the average age was much, much higher than any MA class I'd ever taken. The youngest students were in their late 30's and the oldest were in their late 70's and I'd guess the median age was about 65, maybe older. The format was seasonal sessions (it being a community center) but the instruction was ongoing if you kept re-enrolling.

At the beginning of each session the instructor asked everyone why they were there and what they wanted to learn. It was a large and popular class, with a waiting list, and I was there for ~ 2 years so I got to hear a lot of people give their answers. The only mental health concern I heard from anyone under ~65 was stress management. Even the students in their 70's were usually there to improve their balance, if they had a health concern, or simply to do something indoors to keep active. Only a few expressed concerns about cognitive decline. At least as many of those in their 70's said they were there to learn push hands and applications. I'm sure they chose Tai Chi because it seems a lot less likely to produce injury than Judo or Muay Thai, but they were still motivated by an interest in the martial part of martial arts, even if primarily academically. So, sure, I expect some 50 year old's take karate to do katas to reduce their Alzheimer's risk, but I think it's a pretty low percentage that are even thinking about it.

 

[GojuTommy]

I do agree that if you care about a long, healthy and functional life you should start working on it as young as possible, and that includes things to keep your brain sharp. We're definitely on the same page there.

Where I disagree is that I don't think very many people actually think about it until it happens to someone they care about and can relate to in that way, or until they start to feel the effects themselves. So, sure, more people in their 50's have had that experience with a loved one in their life than people in their 30's. I just think that the number of 50 year old's motivated to take up an athletic endeavor for brain health, as opposed to general health, is only slightly higher than 30 year old's, and in general, in both age groups, it's the same sort of personality. So, if theoretically say 2% of 30 y.o. MA students are taking it in part for mental health reasons then maybe 3-4% of 50 y.o. might be too.

For me it went the direction, I became more cautious about doing things with a lot of head strikes because I didn't want to damage my brain. If there had been more awareness about CTE when I was young I'd have cared more then too.

I was taking a Tai Chi class before the pandemic. Being Tai Chi, far more than karate, it attracted an older crowd, and being in a neighborhood that had a number of age restricted communities (55+), and being a very inexpensive class at the local community center, the average age was much, much higher than any MA class I'd ever taken. The youngest students were in their late 30's and the oldest were in their late 70's and I'd guess the median age was about 65, maybe older. The format was seasonal sessions (it being a community center) but the instruction was ongoing if you kept re-enrolling.

At the beginning of each session the instructor asked everyone why they were there and what they wanted to learn. It was a large and popular class, with a waiting list, and I was there for ~ 2 years so I got to hear a lot of people give their answers. The only mental health concern I heard from anyone under ~65 was stress management. Even the students in their 70's were usually there to improve their balance, if they had a health concern, or simply to do something indoors to keep active. Only a few expressed concerns about cognitive decline. At least as many of those in their 70's said they were there to learn push hands and applications. I'm sure they chose Tai Chi because it seems a lot less likely to produce injury than Judo or Muay Thai, but they were still motivated by an interest in the martial part of martial arts, even if primarily academically. So, sure, I expect some 50 year old's take karate to do katas to reduce their Alzheimer's risk, but I think it's a pretty low percentage that are even thinking about it.

Oh I agree I don’t think avoiding dementia is a driving factor, but yeah for older people I just don’t see them wanting to get into MT or boxing. Kung fu, karate, aikido, tai chi, etc just seem to be the sort of styles that older people will prefer

 

[MetalBoar]

Oh I agree I don’t think avoiding dementia is a driving factor, but yeah for older people I just don’t see them wanting to get into MT or boxing. Kung fu, karate, aikido, tai chi, etc just seem to be the sort of styles that older people will prefer

That's probably true in general, and I'm sure it becomes more true the older people get, but it hasn't been my experience. When I think about my friends (pre-pandemic) who were between 40 and 60 and doing martial arts, I knew 2 people doing Tai Chi (that includes me and I got the other guy into it), 2 people doing MMA and FMA, one guy who does everything, got his BJJ black belt in his 40's and still regularly does serious MMA sparring in his early 50's, and several people doing HEMA. The guy I got into Tai Chi wanted to do something like BJJ but I convinced him to try the Tai Chi because the instructor was awesome. Before Tai Chi, I was taking private boxing lessons, but the guy I was training with moved.

 

[GojuTommy]

That's probably true in general, and I'm sure it becomes more true the older people get, but it hasn't been my experience. When I think about my friends (pre-pandemic) who were between 40 and 60 and doing martial arts, I knew 2 people doing Tai Chi (that includes me and I got the other guy into it), 2 people doing MMA and FMA, one guy who does everything, got his BJJ black belt in his 40's and still regularly does serious MMA sparring in his early 50's, and several people doing HEMA. The guy I got into Tai Chi wanted to do something like BJJ but I convinced him to try the Tai Chi because the instructor was awesome. Before Tai Chi, I was taking private boxing lessons, but the guy I was training with moved.

Sounds like you’ve got some interesting friends!

I’d say the BJJ guy should be excluded from this discussion since he would have had to have started BJJ no later than 32 to have a blackbelt by now(assuming a legit school)

But yes in general I think karate schools just don’t provide what the younger people want, and karate provides something the older people find desirable

 

[JowGaWolf]

A 50-year-old adult is going to be worried about exercising their memory to stave off dementia and Alzheimer's.

I just hit 50. The lady thing I think about is my memory.

And since sparring leaves bruises, and bruises take longer and longer to heal the older you are, forms are a nice alternative.

I get bruises. It takes longer to heal. I heal. It's only a problem when stuff stops healing. the biggest change is that I'm less willing to punish my body to show how tough I

As far as my mental health , I just try to keep my mind learning new things. I read somewhere that the best way to maintain the brain is to use it. And to recode it to new learning. If we don't use it then we'll lose it.

 

[skribs]

I just hit 50. The lady thing I think about is my memory.

How about cognition in general. For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."

 

[Tez3]

I’m sure we all heard about those girls in HS who were 14 or 15 but had 20+ year old boyfriends.

That has less to do with predatory behaviour and more to do with the fact that 14/15 year old girls are mentally the same age as 20 yr old males, the age being 17. That's not excusing under age sex etc just that 14/15 year old boys are awful to go out with.

40 being old in a sport is entirely dependent on the sport. My other sports are equestrian ones, age is basically irrelevant. Sports requiring stamina tend to have older people being successful. Mostly though it's not the sport itself that limits older people but the pressure of constant competition so many sports have. In football (proper football ⚽) there used to be one match on a Saturday afternoon, maybe one on a Wednesday night all leading to a cup final at the end of the season. If you were good enough to represent your country you played those matches. However, now that it's big business for clubs teams are playing far more, league games, cup games (just how many cups are available now?) so many national managers are finding it hard to call players up for internationals. One element of this is 'magic spray syndrome', basically the use of steroids injections etc to mask injuries, the physio runs on, sprays injury with cold spray so player can continue, then steroid injections after. A lot of players had sustained far more serious career ending injuries because of this, there is literally no resting an injury, the pressure to play is immense.
Better fitness, better nutrition etc all help to extend careers but the sheer volume of competitions leaves you like Andy Murray, regardless of age.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How about cognition in general. For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."

That's mainly technology on my android and the swipe feature. My only fault is not going back to read before sending. Or me not tapping the words out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's mainly technology on my android and the swipe feature. My only fault is not going back to read before sending. Or me not tapping the words out.

The first issue that most have to deal with are. Over weight, diabetes, or high blood pressure. Those tend to sneak up on people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How about cognition in general. For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."

For me the cognition thing tends to be with learning new things that I think of as fads. If I don't think I need it then I won't learn it.

Social media platforms and mobile phone are low on my list of things to learn. Pretty strange for a guy that works on an IT service desk.

 

[Oily Dragon]

How about cognition in general. For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."

How about his phone replaced last with lady.

Funny thing, I read his post right and the phones error didn't register.

I exercise every day. /Flex

 

[MetalBoar]

Sounds like you’ve got some interesting friends!

I’d say the BJJ guy should be excluded from this discussion since he would have had to have started BJJ no later than 32 to have a blackbelt by now(assuming a legit school)

But yes in general I think karate schools just don’t provide what the younger people want, and karate provides something the older people find desirable

I do have some interesting friends!

If we're limiting ourselves to only talking about people taking MA for the first time at 40+ that's a whole other thing. Of my friends doing martial arts at that age, the only ones that started after 40 might be the 2 doing MMA and FMA, they're a couple and wanted to do something active together and if it was MA then they wanted it to have some practical application to self defense. Even then, I'm not sure if they count, depending on what you consider an MA, she has been an avid archer for a long time and he may have done MA before, in his youth, but the current class is the first MA he's done since I've known him (about 15 years).

The BJJ guy has trained in everything, and it really does seem like everything. He's amazingly skilled at MA. He started at a young age and has been really serious about it without any breaks ever since. I've been doing MA off and on since I was 16. The guy taking Tai Chi with me took kung fu in the 1980's at a place that did knock down sparring (things were different in the '70's and '80's), but he hadn't trained in 25+ years. The HEMA people have been doing it forever, more than a couple of them since HEMA came into existence, or before if you count sport fencing.

I think people who start MA for the first time ever in their 40's+ mainly start for 1 (or more) of 3 or 4 reasons:

1. They have kids who do it.
2. They want to get in shape and love action movies.
3. They've had some event in their life that makes them feel less safe and they want to learn some self defense.
4. If we include people who did it as kids but stopped when they were still young, I think you can add a variation on #2; they want to get in shape and they remember karate/judo/tkd or whatever as being a lot more fun than grinding out hours on a treadmill.

And that explains a lot of why there are older people in Karate:

1. Modern karate schools tend to be very kid focused (yes, exceptions, I know, but it's largely true in my experience) so that means their customers tend to be kids and their parents. Heck, I'd love to do a traditional karate class that did at least occasional hard sparring, but every school I've checked out (and that's a lot) I'd have been doing point sparring with a bunch of 16 year old's and a few of their parents who seem way older than me, even if they're younger. I would feel pretty awkward in that environment and I bet a lot of people older than about 20, with no kids, would too.
2. If all you know about martial arts is what you've seen on TV and you want to look like that, then TKD and, to a slightly lesser extent, karate are going to be the obvious go to choices. Plenty of high kicks and there's probably a school in the shopping center down the street. Who cares if they only do kata and occasional point sparring if you just want to be able do things that look cool and get in shape?
3. Most of these people probably don't end up in karate, but hopefully they're small in number. They do BJJ, maybe MMA, maybe Krav Maga or an RBSD program, maybe FMA, because weapons give you a big edge if you're really worried about someone hurting you. Those who are really worried probably learn how to use a gun. And let's be honest, if you have legitimate reason to fear for your life here in the US, learning how to shoot a gun and retain it under stress is probably your best bet. EDIT: If they're older enough to have physical challenges the gun or FMA becomes more likely. They might also do Aikido if they're been convinced it will work for anyone regardless of size or strength.
4. People who did MA as a kid, and haven't paid any attention to MA since, are likely to go back to what they did before. For people my age, in the US, that's very likely to be karate, TKD, judo or maybe kung fu. In the '70's and '80's there was no BJJ, even in big cities Muay Thai was tough to find, boxing wasn't widely available to kids, until very recently you couldn't find wrestling classes for adults, etc. So, if you're in this category and 50, karate is a likely choice.

EDIT: I'll add that the other reason an older person might be in karate is because they never stopped doing it and started when they were young and karate was cool, and also one of the only options available.

 

[GojuTommy]

I do have some interesting friends!

If we're limiting ourselves to only talking about people taking MA for the first time at 40+ that's a whole other thing. Of my friends doing martial arts at that age, the only ones that started after 40 might be the 2 doing MMA and FMA, they're a couple and wanted to do something active together and if it was MA then they wanted it to have some practical application to self defense. Even then, I'm not sure if they count, depending on what you consider an MA, she has been an avid archer for a long time and he may have done MA before, in his youth, but the current class is the first MA he's done since I've known him (about 15 years).

The BJJ guy has trained in everything, and it really does seem like everything. He's amazingly skilled at MA. He started at a young age and has been really serious about it without any breaks ever since. I've been doing MA off and on since I was 16. The guy taking Tai Chi with me took kung fu in the 1980's at a place that did knock down sparring (things were different in the '70's and '80's), but he hadn't trained in 25+ years. The HEMA people have been doing it forever, more than a couple of them since HEMA came into existence, or before if you count sport fencing.

I think people who start MA for the first time ever in their 40's+ mainly start for 1 (or more) of 3 or 4 reasons:

1. They have kids who do it.
2. They want to get in shape and love action movies.
3. They've had some event in their life that makes them feel less safe and they want to learn some self defense.
4. If we include people who did it as kids but stopped when they were still young, I think you can add a variation on #2; they want to get in shape and they remember karate/judo/tkd or whatever as being a lot more fun than grinding out hours on a treadmill.

And that explains a lot of why there are older people in Karate:

1. Modern karate schools tend to be very kid focused (yes, exceptions, I know, but it's largely true in my experience) so that means their customers tend to be kids and their parents. Heck, I'd love to do a traditional karate class that did at least occasional hard sparring, but every school I've checked out (and that's a lot) I'd have been doing point sparring with a bunch of 16 year old's and a few of their parents who seem way older than me, even if they're younger. I would feel pretty awkward in that environment and I bet a lot of people older than about 20, with no kids, would too.
2. If all you know about martial arts is what you've seen on TV and you want to look like that, then TKD and, to a slightly lesser extent, karate are going to be the obvious go to choices. Plenty of high kicks and there's probably a school in the shopping center down the street. Who cares if they only do kata and occasional point sparring if you just want to be able do things that look cool and get in shape?
3. Most of these people probably don't end up in karate, but hopefully they're small in number. They do BJJ, maybe MMA, maybe Krav Maga or an RBSD program, maybe FMA, because weapons give you a big edge if you're really worried about someone hurting you. Those who are really worried probably learn how to use a gun. And let's be honest, if you have legitimate reason to fear for your life here in the US, learning how to shoot a gun and retain it under stress is probably your best bet.
4. People who did MA as a kid, and haven't paid any attention to MA since, are likely to go back to what they did before. For people my age, in the US, that's very likely to be karate, TKD, judo or maybe kung fu. In the '70's and '80's there was no BJJ, even in big cities Muay Thai was tough to find, boxing wasn't widely available to kids, until very recently you couldn't find wrestling classes for adults, etc. So, if you're in this category and 50, karate is a likely choice.

I would exclude anyone who started a more combat sport focused art in their 20s or 30s because that supports the position that people in that age group lean towards those styles, and simply getting a bit older isn’t much of a motivation to switch styles.

Your couple friend I would count because they started a more combat sport focused style in those later years.

I largely agree with those reasons, but I would add fear/apprehension about styles like MT or KB to that list. Fear of injury, apprehensive about being judged by the younger adults, and other similar concerns.