White Crane Style Fajin Break Down
- Thread starter dre2308
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What did the instructor intend to show? Did he try to show that he could use Fajin to
- "hurt", or
- "throw"
his opponent?
It's similiar to the following clip that I don't understand what he was trying to show.
- "hurt", or
- "throw"
his opponent?
It's similiar to the following clip that I don't understand what he was trying to show.
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Both to your question.
fajin in internal martial arts, such as Tai Chi or White Crane, in short is just applying one's force in a more effective and efficient fashion rather than using the less efficient version (brute force).
And it is normally done by the utilization of specific body mechanics, breathing techniques along with internal force from years of chi cultivating exercise and etc.
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What do you want to achieve? To knock your opponent down or to throw your opponent down? Push is neither punch nor throw. What's the purpose of "push"?
I see what you are asking. The push is more for throwing the opponent down in our style, which is normally used after Sanshou (combo strikes).
Like it shows from 5:11 to 5:48 in this video:
I will double check with my master whether it can also be used for other purposes. thanks for asking.
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blindsage
Master of Arts
If you don't understand what Chen Man Ching is doing you should find a good Taiji instructor.
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I'm a Taiji instructor.
blindsage
Master of Arts
Then you should already understand what CMC is doing.
In the style of Taiji, I'm one generation above Chen Man Ching. I don't see the value of "push" in combat.
- Bruce Lee said, "I punch, I don't push".
- Kung Fu Wang said, "I throw, I don't push".
Fair enough. "Push" is more of the move used in a push-hand duel, and maybe is not so commonly used in combat.
However, in our style we utilize it in combat. It actually serves as the transition move between combo attacks (SanShou).
Offensively, the "push" is used to make your opponent off balanced so that you will get a better chance of hitting him with the 2nd combo, and is normally activated right after the 1st combo and when the defender are close enough.
Goes in sequence like: 1st combo →push → 2nd combo
Defensively, I think it could be used to create space to prevent grappling when the opponent is too close to you.
Just my 2 cents
If you push your opponent, the distance between you and him will be increased. This will be harder for you to hit him after that. Instead, you should pull your opponent into you and give him a "head on collision". That will fit the striking model:
A + B > A
The throwing model will require 2 opposite directions force. One to push your opponent's upper body. One to pull his leg/legs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI0YgIxoqUE&feature=youtu.be
Since there is no such thing as opposite directions Fajin (at least I don't believe it exists), Faiji will have little to no value in the throwing model.
If your opponent gets a hold on you, his body and your body will be combined as one unit. Your push will not increase distance between you and him. Try to keep your friends close but your enemies closer. This is why to push your opponent away is not a good idea. Of course you can
- push your opponent off cliff, or
- push him into heavy traffic, or
- push his forehead to bend his head backward and put pressure on his neck,
Besides that I just don't see much value of "push". The push will have great usage if you combine it with your leg hooking. Without using your leg, push is just one contact point.
- 1 point contact force can "move" an object.
- 2 points contact force can "rotate" an object.
A + B > A
The throwing model will require 2 opposite directions force. One to push your opponent's upper body. One to pull his leg/legs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI0YgIxoqUE&feature=youtu.be
Since there is no such thing as opposite directions Fajin (at least I don't believe it exists), Faiji will have little to no value in the throwing model.
If your opponent gets a hold on you, his body and your body will be combined as one unit. Your push will not increase distance between you and him. Try to keep your friends close but your enemies closer. This is why to push your opponent away is not a good idea. Of course you can
- push your opponent off cliff, or
- push him into heavy traffic, or
- push his forehead to bend his head backward and put pressure on his neck,
Besides that I just don't see much value of "push". The push will have great usage if you combine it with your leg hooking. Without using your leg, push is just one contact point.
- 1 point contact force can "move" an object.
- 2 points contact force can "rotate" an object.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Oh for crying out loud...fajin is not push and if you think it is you are clueless.... it is a hit...with any part of the body you intend to hit with, it is a release of energy, and if you see no use for it you do not understand its usage and you do not know taijiquan "PERIOD"
And if lineages matter I am 6th generation Yang from Tung Ying Cheih and trained with 19th generation Chen and hope to be again soon.
There is no Taiji fajin, Bagua fajin, Xingyquan fajin or white crane fajin there is ONLY FAJIN!!!!!
And if lineages matter I am 6th generation Yang from Tung Ying Cheih and trained with 19th generation Chen and hope to be again soon.
There is no Taiji fajin, Bagua fajin, Xingyquan fajin or white crane fajin there is ONLY FAJIN!!!!!
mograph
Master of Arts
I don't know much about much, but I do think that there must be an optimum orientation for your limbs in order to deliver a punch. I would therefore assume that in a combat situation, a push (that may just be a few inches' worth) may be useful in order to reorient yourself relative to your opponent in order to effectively deliver a punch. Or, of course, it may be used to give yourself a chance to get away, or to show someone you can handle him to give him a chance to back down without losing too much face by being pummelled on the ground?
As for fajin, isn't it a technique that can be applied with any limb or part of the body (as Xuesheng wrote)? It is a way of hitting, a way of pushing, a way of expressing force in general that can be applied to a number of martial techniques?
It's just that it is generally demonstrated by pushing someone away rather than hitting them?
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That's what I tried to say.
Faiji used in
- striking should be a force that go inside of your opponent's body without moving his physical body much.
- throwing should be a force that move your opponent's physical body.
Since most Faiji is demonstrated by pushing your opponent physical body, people may think that Fajin is for throwing. IMO, Fajin is for striking.
This was how this discussion started.
Not trying to brag about my Taiji generation here. I'm just lucky to have a teacher who had very high generation in the Taiji system.
The generation thing may not be important in US but in TCMA, you are not suppose to question anybody above your generation. If you are above or the same as someone's generation, it's OK to make comment on that person. That's "Wude".
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I would categorize that video as a demonstration of AN jing. Pushing energy.
As my instructor used to say, pushing somebody that far is only useful if you are going to push them into oncoming traffic!
It's a bad idea practically, you have taken an opportunity away from yourself. You have already uprooted them and gained the upper hand, then lost it again by having to chase them down (or let them chase you down) to re-engage and start over.
Even worse, you have maybe even given them the opportunity to deploy a weapon. An jin can be good to push/up-root a short distance as someone said in-between combo's.
Those demo's do show the instructor has a good root / body connection in one context, but not much else. All too often internal teachers rely on such demo's to impress people, instead of display any actual fighting skills in response to a realistic attack.
His push hands show that his waist/arm connection however is somewhat lacking, although clearly the man does have some skill.
Best,
G
As my instructor used to say, pushing somebody that far is only useful if you are going to push them into oncoming traffic!
It's a bad idea practically, you have taken an opportunity away from yourself. You have already uprooted them and gained the upper hand, then lost it again by having to chase them down (or let them chase you down) to re-engage and start over.
Even worse, you have maybe even given them the opportunity to deploy a weapon. An jin can be good to push/up-root a short distance as someone said in-between combo's.
Those demo's do show the instructor has a good root / body connection in one context, but not much else. All too often internal teachers rely on such demo's to impress people, instead of display any actual fighting skills in response to a realistic attack.
His push hands show that his waist/arm connection however is somewhat lacking, although clearly the man does have some skill.
Best,
G
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
You will also find it in the 8 gates if the 13 postures one of those being An (push)
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