Where is the power generation?

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the following clip, you can only see his arms movement and you don't see his body movement. He moves his arms like a traffic cop directs traffic. How can he generate enough punching power if he doesn't "put his body behind the punch"?

What's your opinion on this?

 

[DanT]

Perhaps it's technique isolation? Only working the arms to ensure that the motion is correct, and then adding in power with the hips when practicing each technique individually.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Perhaps it's technique isolation? Only working the arms to ensure that the motion is correct, and then adding in power with the hips when practicing each technique individually.

In the gym work out, this can be called "muscle group isolation". It's the opposite of the "body unification" that body push/pull limbs. In some MA system, when you have reached to the high level training, you should only see the body movement and you don't see the arm movement.

For example, an arm block should be just a "body rotation" and not to "freeze the body and only move the arm".

Here is a good example of power generation that body rotation is involved in each and every punch.

 

[DanT]

In the gym work out, this can be called "muscle group isolation". It's the opposite of the "body unification" that body push/pull limbs. In some MA system, when you have reached to the high level training, you should only see the body movement and you don't see the arm movement.

For example, an arm block should be just a "body rotation" and not to "freeze the body and only move the arm".

Here is a good example of power generation that body rotation is involved in each and every punch.

Many systems share forms that use only the limbs to develop coordination. As an example take three wars fist or sanchin which is found in karate and almost all styles of Kung fu. It focuses on three types of power generation: thrusting, whipping, and shaking, and keeps the body stationary. There are other forms I'm sure that guy can do to work his body.

 

[seasoned]

The first video is smooth while the second is choppy. Both demonstrate training methods. While both are valid at different windows of individual development, when put together they would culminate in the end result of a somewhat effortless power transfer. IMHO

 

[Touch Of Death]

Power comes from the forward momentum of the step

 

[marques]

In some MA system, when you have reached to the high level training, you should only see the body movement and you don't see the arm movement.
For example, an arm block should be just a "body rotation" and not to "freeze the body and only move the arm".

In Systema (or at least some branches) I have seen that: "freeze the body and only move the arm [or leg]". And, actually, there is power this way! (I was in the receiver side).

After me, power comes from feet position and a good balance between body and limbs movement.

 

[Flying Crane]

Many systems share forms that use only the limbs to develop coordination. As an example take three wars fist or sanchin which is found in karate and almost all styles of Kung fu. It focuses on three types of power generation: thrusting, whipping, and shaking, and keeps the body stationary. There are other forms I'm sure that guy can do to work his body.

Well, Sanchin is not found in most Kung fu styles, tho it may be found in certain groups of systems, like Hakka systems of which Fukien white crane is one. Fukien crane is actually the only Kung fu system I am aware of that has it, and from there it found a place within several Okinawan karate systems.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Video one is a form demonstration
Video two is a fajin demonstration
They are not the same thing

 

[DanT]

Well, Sanchin is not found in most Kung fu styles, tho it may be found in certain groups of systems, like Hakka systems of which Fukien white crane is one. Fukien crane is actually the only Kung fu system I am aware of that has it, and from there it found a place within several Okinawan karate systems.

A bunch of southern schools have it, we practice it at my school (but we also teach white crane so maybe my Sifu teaches it as well to the wing chun ppl cuz it's useful?) Anyways, I'm pretty sure almost all styles involving some sort of crane thing would have it, so hung gar, 5 animals, maybeeeee choi lee fut, white eyebrow might have it too. We also practice it in northern shaolin, so it seems to be a pretty universal form.

 

[Flying Crane]

A bunch of southern schools have it, we practice it at my school (but we also teach white crane so maybe my Sifu teaches it as well to the wing chun ppl cuz it's useful?) Anyways, I'm pretty sure almost all styles involving some sort of crane thing would have it, so hung gar, 5 animals, maybeeeee choi lee fut, white eyebrow might have it too. We also practice it in northern shaolin, so it seems to be a pretty universal form.

I'm thinking that may be your sifu teaching it across the board. It is not normally found in wing chun, hung gar, choy lay fut, northern shaolin long fist, Tibetan white crane...

I don't know if it's found in white eyebrow. This just sounds like your sifu is teaching it in all cases.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[DanT]

I'm thinking that may be your sifu teaching it across the board. It is not normally found in wing chun, hung gar, choy lay fut, northern shaolin long fist, Tibetan white crane...

I don't know if it's found in white eyebrow. This just sounds like your sifu is teaching it in all cases.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yeah it's a pretty useful form for power generation

 

[KangTsai]

Perhaps it's technique isolation? Only working the arms to ensure that the motion is correct, and then adding in power with the hips when practicing each technique individually.

It can't work like that.

 

[DanT]

It can't work like that.

Why can't it work like that? People break down motions by isolating parts of them all the time. If I taught you how to swing a golf club, I would break down the motion first into what the arms are doing, the hips, and the legs, and then combine them. This just seems like a beginner level form that works on arm isolation and perhaps to loosen the arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Perhaps it's technique isolation?

Many years ago when someone taught me the 1st WC form, I asked him, "Why am I just moving my arm without moving my body?"

- From a different CMA system, I was taught to train Miao Diao (long single edge knife) form without holding a Miao Diao. When I did that, I had to assume that my body was the Miao Diao. To swing a Miao diao, I had to swing my body.

- In another CMA system, I had to freeze my arm and just use my body to perform upward block, downward block, right to left block, and left to right block. In other words, I had to use my body to pull/push my arm.

I don't believe that technique training and power generation training should be separated. IMO, a technique without power is useless.The moment that you try to develop your technique is the moment that you try to generate your power.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Many years ago when someone taught me the 1st WC form, I asked him, "Why am I just moving my arm without moving my body?"

- From a different CMA system, I was taught to train Miao Diao (long single edge knife) form without holding a Miao Diao. When I did that, I had to assume that my body was the Miao Diao. To swing a Miao diao, I had to swing my body.

- In another CMA system, I had to freeze my arm and just use my body to perform upward block, downward block, right to left block, and left to right block. In other words, I had to use my body to pull/push my arm.

I don't believe that technique training and power generation training should be separated. IMO, a technique without power is useless.The moment that you try to develop your technique is the moment that you try to generate your power.

This is my approach, as well. I have heard instructors teaching students by isolating the technical movement from the power core, and it seemed to work for them, though it seems the long way to me. I don't like seeing techniques of any kind (strikes, locks, throws, etc.) performed without one of their principles intact. It seems like a good way to develop a bad habit. Maybe one of the folks here with other experience has a different opinion, though.

 

[JP3]

I don't like seeing techniques of any kind (strikes, locks, throws, etc.) performed without one of their principles intact. It seems like a good way to develop a bad habit. Maybe one of the folks here with other experience has a different opinion, though.

You won't get a different opinion from me on this point. I've demonstrated a single-portion of the complete movement on its own for a student, so that the student could see nd focus for that moment on what the hand/arm or foot/leg is doing, but it's always part of a complete whole. Otherwise you create a hole, not a whole.

Move the body as a unit (hizumi I think is the Japanese spelling of the concept) gives even small people a vast amount of power to call on (i.e. the whole "I hit them with the planet!" joke from Judo.) The opposite concept (ikkeoi, single movement) is to be avoided.

Shoot, just go look at the discussion of how non-spinning backfists are delivered to see this point in action.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You won't get a different opinion from me on this point. I've demonstrated a single-portion of the complete movement on its own for a student, so that the student could see nd focus for that moment on what the hand/arm or foot/leg is doing, but it's always part of a complete whole. Otherwise you create a hole, not a whole.

Move the body as a unit (hizumi I think is the Japanese spelling of the concept) gives even small people a vast amount of power to call on (i.e. the whole "I hit them with the planet!" joke from Judo.) The opposite concept (ikkeoi, single movement) is to be avoided.

Shoot, just go look at the discussion of how non-spinning backfists are delivered to see this point in action.

This discussion actually has me looking back at how I teach the basic one-hand blocks. I'm thinking I may be able to introduce body movement into the basic practice for beginners. It's more realistic, and avoids building that "stand and block" habit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This discussion actually has me looking back at how I teach the basic one-hand blocks. I'm thinking I may be able to introduce body movement into the basic practice for beginners. It's more realistic, and avoids building that "stand and block" habit.

Today I just practiced to "use my body to move my arms" while my arm is totally frozen with my body.

1. Linear movement - When my hip move to my right, my arm will move to my left. When my hip move to my left, my arm will move to my right.
2. Circular movement - When my hip rotate clockwise, my left arm rotate clockwise vertically. When my hip rotate counter-clockwise, my right arm rotate counter-clockwise vertically.

I like the way he did his form. He has achieved - see the body movement and don't see much the arms movement. His arm movement and his body movement has integrated together.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Today I just practiced to "use my body to move my arms" while my arm is totally frozen with my body.

1. Linear movement - When my hip move to my right, my arm will move to my left. When my hip move to my left, my arm will move to my right.
2. Circular movement - When my hip rotate clockwise, my left arm rotate clockwise vertically. When my hip rotate counter-clockwise, my right arm rotate counter-clockwise vertically.

I like the way he did his form. He has achieved - see the body movement and don't see much the arms movement. His arm movement and his body movement has integrated together.

When I see the forms done this way, WC makes more sense to me.